Lifetime backers

[lenna]

How much longer do people need to wait to have "the legitimate right to complain about pace of delivery"?

Given there was no prescribed limit nor specified delivery schedule at point of sale of the LEP... there is never going to be legitimacy to complaints about pace of delivery, it is that simple.

As a Horizons era LEP owner myself, I realised what FD was or was not committing to - it was written in black and white as part of the LEP description. No timescale specified. No specific sequence of content nor packages of content, beyond what was being already announced for the Horizon expansion.

As for trolling (attempt or otherwise), far from it - simply stating actual fact. Some may think they have a right to complain, and to a degree that is true. However, FD have all along been rather vague about their feature delivery plans and often only release information almost immediately prior to release (or at least at point of the Beta phase). At no point have FD stated a plan for delivery beyond a performance period of 12-18 months and while people may object to the pace of delivery FD have never actually committed themselves to a particular schedule for Premium Expansions and probably (if they have any common sense) they never will.

We should all know what happened with the plan for Horizon and how many complaints came out of that plus how long it took to complete. We also know that they gave up on the staged delivery model for expansions after the community fallout over Horizons. Given all of this, the fact we only know of the pending E/O 2020 Premium Expansion should be of no real surprise. By the time they announce the forthcoming expansion it should be on the most part complete and people should know exactly what is being covered by the expansion BEFORE they buy it.

I can not blame them for keeping things close to their chest, announcing the plan in advance and then alterations along the way as things change has never worked out well for them from a general community relations perspective.

 

[lenna]

Well the two reasons would be :

1. Not having delivered anything of value on the LEP in 4 years (due mainly to taking money up front for something that turned out to be free)
2. Not wanting to treat your long-standing customers badly

Sorry but false on both counts.

WRT 1 - Horizon was part of the LEP and that took longer to complete than they had originally planned (c. 2 years after initial release) and during The Beyond season of updates feature changes were released both for Horizon/LEP owners and the base game owners. We also know they have been working on the next Premium Expansion and plan to release it E/O this year. If they had decided to continue the Horizon incremental delivery model I suspect we would have had the first drop of it probably in 2018 - but that delivery model was abandoned so it is pretty moot.

WRT 2 - Nothing they have done to date runs counter to what they have promised to deliver, there may have been some further schedule slippages but ultimately nothing can truly be considered treating their customers badly except perhaps TWO things - their poor level of QA/Testing for at least some of their updates and their overall man-handling of the Exploration updates. Their lack of acknowledgement of fault with their approach to the exploration updates (which has ruined at least part of the game for some and was generally speaking poorly implemented) and demonstrable (at best) half-truths they have used to promote those updates are still a bone of contention. However, specifically regarding pace of delivery there is nothing that comes even close to treating their customers badly.

We all bought into the LEP with no specific content nor timescale promised, we only had the broad brush picture of where FD want to take ED as a product with no specific time commitment except in terms of knowing development was going to continue for 10 years or more. 10 years is the notional expected maximum for general financial planning and detailed plans rarely extend beyond a single financial year (two at most is the norm when it goes beyond a year - at least IME).

 

[bitstorm]

WRT 1 - Horizon was part of the LEP and that took longer to complete than they had originally planned (c. 2 years after initial release) and during The Beyond season of updates feature changes were released both for Horizon/LEP owners and the base game owners. We also know they have been working on the next Premium Expansion and plan to release it E/O this year.

Beyond was free, meaning LEP owners received no value from the LEP there on that season. And at the time the choice was Horizons or LEP so again no value beyond what at standard Horizons purchaser gained. All that's happened is a LEP purchaser paid 3 times the rate for Horizons, that's it.

WRT 2 - Nothing they have done to date runs counter to what they have promised to deliver, there may have been some further schedule slippages but ultimately nothing can truly be considered treating their customers badly except perhaps ONE thing - their poor level of QA/Testing for at least some of their updates and their overall man-handling of the Exploration updates. Their lack of acknowledgement of fault with their approach to the exploration updates (which has ruined at least part of the game for some and was generally speaking poorly implemented) and demonstrable (at best) half-truths they have used to promote those updates are still a bone of contention. However, specifically regarding pace of delivery there is nothing that comes even close to treating their customers badly.

Aye you can talk about promises and say there were none. But even though you wont say it you me and Frontier know roughly what expectations were at Horizons LEP time. That has not played out and it's not played out because of LEP owners but because of Frontier.

Communication isn't difficult, I'm doing it right now. Making good on the deal isn't difficult either. As I say Frontier just did not see either of those as important. All LEP owners got for their money was silence and a boat load of arguing on the forums with folk who like to call people entitled whiners for saying something.

 

[Backelaer]

... you me and Frontier know roughly what expectations were at Horizons LEP time.

Yeah, no. Expectations are something that are really hard to manage. 53 pages tells us that much.
But I'm sure yours are really reasonable.

When you pay upfront for a game, you invest in potential. No promises were made.
Do you have the right to criticise the company for not living up to the potential? Sure. Are you entitled to a refund? No way.

 

[lenna]

Beyond was free, meaning LEP owners received no value from the LEP there on that season. And at the time the choice was Horizons or LEP so again no value beyond what at standard Horizons purchaser gained. All that's happened is a LEP purchaser paid 3 times the rate for Horizons, that's it.

But that is moot - you said "nothing of value" was delivered, which is demonstrably false.

As for the pending Premium Expansion (which we know will be only free to LEP owners), we should all realise that a c. 2 yr delay was going to be inevitable after completion of Horizon given how the incremental delivery model for Horizon panned out.

Aye you can talk about promises and say there were none. But even though you wont say it you me and Frontier know roughly what expectations were at Horizons LEP time. That has not played out and it's not played out not because of LEP owners but because of Frontier.

Such expectations were on the most part unfounded and pure guesswork. I remember debating with a friend of mine about whether to get the LEP or not and the point that there were no guarantees was abundantly clear. If anyone bought the LEP wearing rose-tinted glasses then the problem is with them not FD nor the LEP description, FD did not offer a road-map beyond Horizon and the LEP merely stated all future expansions would be free.

As far as, the "Beyond" series of updates - they were at least in part an attempt to address various issues that everyone pretty much agreed needed to be addressed to one extent or another - even if we did not necessarily agree with their approach in all cases.

While I do not have any insider knowledge, it also probably served as a stop gap for the development support team(s) while the next Premium Expansion was being developed in it's entirety ready for a big bang release later this year. At which point, I suspect the support team(s) will take over primary responsibility for the content and the Expansion team(s) may start work on the next drop. This is not an unusual operational model for a live product and given their abandonment of the incremental delivery Seasons model after Horizons it is the most likely operational change to FD's dev team for ED. We may never know for certain that this is the actual case, but it is a common model adopted on many different products by many different companies and is the most logical thing for FD to do.

 

[bitstorm]

Yeah, no. Expectations are something that are really hard to manage. 53 pages tells us that much.
But I'm sure yours are really reasonable.

When you pay upfront for a game, you invest in potential. No promises were made.
Do you have the right to criticise the company for not living up to the potential? Sure. Are you entitled to a refund? No way.

I don't really agree with your framing it as "investing in potential".

This isn't really "oh at least they tried".

Paying up front for all seasons and having the company make those seasons free is actively pulling the rug from under your pre-purchasers, it was an intentional choice. As I say they are perfectably able to communicate with LEP owners, they have our emails, and they are able to make good on the deal if they thought it mattered.

 

[lenna]

Paying up front for all seasons and having the company make those seasons free

False assertion - this is NOT what has happened.

Horizons is still a Premium Expansion requiring payment over above the base game cost. This is despite the fact you can buy Horizon with the base game bundled in.

The Beyond "season" was not an expansion in essence but merely a mop up exercise of well known issues (with some minor additions thrown in), in the mean time we KNOW they have been working on the next Premium Expansion (c/f Horizons) and knew they were working on it when they announced the "Beyond" series of updates.

 

[bitstorm]

But that is moot - you said "nothing of value" was delivered, which is demonstrably false.

Honestly, I'm not really interesting in arguing semantics. You're well aware of what I mean and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying when the basis of my point is "given the choice between Horizons and the LEP" rather than "buying nothing vs LEP". If there was a LEP refund it'd be £70 not £120.

Such expectations were on the most part unfounded and pure guesswork. I remember debating with a friend of mine about whether to get the LEP or not and the point that there were no guarantees was abundantly clear. If anyone bought the LEP wearing rose-tinted glasses then the problem is with them not FD nor the LEP description, FD did not offer a road-map beyond Horizon and the LEP merely stated all future expansions would be free.

I think it was perfectly reasonable to have an expectation of them delivering something paid for before 2021. Also no-one said anything about guarantees.

 

[bitstorm]

False assertion - this is NOT what has happened.

It is exactly what happened. The season after Horizons, Beyond, was free. I don't see how this can be disputed.

The Beyond "season" was not an expansion in essence but merely a mop up exercise of well known issues (with some minor additions thrown in), in the mean time we KNOW they have been working on the next Premium Expansion (c/f Horizons) and knew they were working on it when they announced the "Beyond" series of updates.

Beyond is a season.

LEP was a purchase of all future seasons.

 

[lenna]

Honestly, I'm not really interesting in arguing semantics. You're well aware of what I mean and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying when the basis of my point is "given the choice between Horizons and the LEP" rather than "buying nothing vs LEP". If there was a LEP refund it'd be £70 not £120.

Lets be blunt - we knew that towards the end of the Horizon series of incremental updates (bundled under coverage of a season pass and the LEP) that they were abandoning the seasons incremental model and changing to the big-bang expansion model instead - that would naturally mean there would be a longer delay between the Horizon initial drop and the drop of the next expansion. You may not like to accept that simple fact but it is there anyway.

We know there is a premium expansion coming E/O 2020 (Potentially early 2021) and that it has been being worked on both during and before the "Beyond" series of updates. This is something that has been made clear in various announcements from FD and the reasons that the "Beyond" series of updates were not subject to additional fees was also made abundantly clear.

Any talk of asking for a refund in open forum is bound to be met with justified ridicule from some quarters, but if that is really what you want you have to go through the proper channels. Ultimately though, there is no justification for them awarding one despite your protestations to the contrary - they realised after the fact that it will probably cost them money in the long run where the Horizons era LEP is concerned and that has been hinted at on more than one occasion. Not because of the refunds though - but because of premium content they obviously plan to release at some point even if they don't have a road map for it's release.

 

[lenna]

I think it was perfectly reasonable to have an expectation of them delivering something paid for before 2021. Also no-one said anything about guarantees.

Except the ONLY content explicitly covered by the LEP was Horizon, and we all got that Horizon Pass/LEP owner alike.

All other content was unspecified in any specific sense and we know that FD have not abandoned the principle of paid for expansions and are working on one now.

We know the plan is to release said expansion before E/O 2020 (perhaps in early 2021 if there is a schedule slippage) BUT yes, any expectation of specific expansions or features being released in a given timescale when their release date has not been formally announced is totally unjustified and unreasonable.

 

[amigacooke]

We all bought into the LEP with no specific content nor timescale promised, we only had the broad brush picture of where FD want to take ED as a product with no specific time commitment except in terms of knowing development was going to continue for 10 years or more.

David Braben giving the Elite: Dangerous Development Plan, but with no specific (apparently)

 

[bitstorm]

Ultimately though, there is no justification for them awarding one despite your protestations to the contrary - they realised after the fact that it will probably cost them money in the long run where the Horizons era LEP is concerned and that has been hinted at on more than one occasion. Not because of the refunds though - but because of premium content they obviously plan to release at some point even if they don't have a road map for it's release.

Well clearly the justification is a bunch of people bought in in good faith and Frontier have delivered zero value on it since it was sold, more so their actions/performance has devalued it such that it's likely it will never now pay off.

 

[lenna]

David Braben giving the Elite: Dangerous Development Plan, but with no specific (apparently)

Your sarcasm aside, you are talking about a rather vague plan - it was ONLY a declaration of intent and clearly indicates that features will be expanded on over time. It was not a true development plan in the project/programme management/commonly accepted sense of the term - no specific dates and early on he is crystal clear about how the overall big-picture scope is large enough to "scare the pants off most developers".

No dates are mentioned at all and the early statement on the level of scope should be a big enough hint that the game itself was going to require ALOT of development for a long time after release.

 

[bitstorm]

You have to laugh at how people will defend a company taking people's money up front and delivering sod all for it... cos video games.

It is only with video games that people are quite happy to get nothing for their money, nowhere else.

 

[lenna]

Well clearly the justification is a bunch of people bought in in good faith and Frontier have delivered zero value on it since it was sold, more so their actions/performance has devalued it such that it's likely it will never now pay off.

Get over it - you and I may not agree with some of the changes since release (perhaps different ones) but ultimately nothing they have done has "devalued" the product as whole. They may have ruined certain aspects from certain perspectives, but ultimately the product itself has not devalued in the slightest - certainly there is nothing to date to justify the argument either way that monetarily speaking ED plus all premium expansions (both existing and to come) will be worth more or less than the Horizon's era LEP.

If anything, the indicators point in the direction of the LEP paying off in the long run - but we all need to realise that due to the overall scope that will naturally take well over a decade (if not more than two decades) to deliver on.

 

[amigacooke]

No dates are mentioned at all and the early statement on the level of scope should be a big enough hint that the game itself was going to require ALOT of development for a long time after release.

Five years is a lot of development time. Not having a specific time range cuts both ways, some might say that if you don't give an indication of some sort that this is liable to take five years plus, then you are misleading your customers (to whom you are so vastly grateful), the vast majority of whom have no expertise in development.

 

[lenna]

You have to laugh at how people will defend a company taking people's money up front and delivering sod all for it... cos video games.

It is only with video games that people are quite happy to get nothing for their money, nowhere else.

There is a difference between defending a company and explaining how true "Lifetime" expansion passes work - it would not matter whether we were talking about games or any other product.

 

[amigacooke]

If anything, the indicators point in the direction of the LEP paying off in the long run - but we all need to realise that due to the overall scope that will naturally take well over a decade (if not more than two decades) to deliver on.

If it was as obvious as you believe it to be, I wonder why that wasn't mentioned at the time when Frontier were so keen to get our support.

If you live in England, this may be of interest:
Solve an ongoing consumer problem with a business seller

 

[lenna]

Five years is a lot of development time.

Not really, and you are not talking about five years in all likelihood - more like 2-3 in all probability since Horizon was not released in a notionally complete state while the next premium expansion is expected to be.

That being said, If we assume that Horizon was in development for 2 years prior to initial release and then about 5 years for the next premium expansion might be about right since Horizon was not truely complete for at least 2 years after initial release.