"Gameplay suggestion" != "Problem I'm having in game"

[Deleted member 38366]

IMHO it's completely normal for an "Open Suggestions Box" to be filled with things that others might not agree with, that might be entirely unfeasible (unknown to the Poster making the Suggestions) or that would adversely affect other Players ("go away, we don't want that").
Upto and including Posters with a personal agenda, which can result in quite bizarre (entirely unrealistic/unbalanced) suggestions.

Sorting through all this mix and picking up an occasional Gem is up to Frontier but obviously it's open as well for any other Comments to be added by the Community.

So I wouldn't blame Posters making Suggestions that overlook a few dependencies or limitations they're simply unaware of.

But in essence, legit and authentic Suggestions normally stem from a Delta between Expectation<->In-Game Reality.
Including a possible Solution to close that Delta is constructive - however as said it might not be entirely feasible or carry downsides which other Posters will likely point out.

So overall, nothing really wrong with the process.
(IMHO that also includes Suggestions to the tune of "It would be super cool if [...] " , no harm in asking if the Suggestion is somewhat realistic/feasible and good reasons for it are given)

 

[CMDR Corlas]

When someone is making a suggestion, that's a solution to a problem that poster is having.
Some of the posters are going the extra mile and try to conceal the problem by denying it's actually a problem for them and instead they go: "it would be more fun to"

No. That's precisely the issue. Sometimes, it would just be more fun. "Fun" isn't always a cover-up for some secret problem someone doesn't want to admit to. It's stupid to think there's always a secret coverup.

 

[Northpin]

No. That's precisely the issue. Sometimes, it would just be more fun. "Fun" isn't always a cover-up for some secret problem someone doesn't want to admit to. It's stupid to think there's always a secret coverup.

No?
Your OP is basically saying exactly that:

...
Someone making a suggestion to better the game...

For someone the game is not better enough Problem
It would be more fun to.... Solution

And that someone has to accept that there certainly is someone else that might be enjoying the game as it is and his "fun" might not be fun for the other one.
Hence the suggestion for an alternate approach / workaround / whatever

 

[znôrt]

No. That's precisely the issue. Sometimes, it would just be more fun. "Fun" isn't always a cover-up for some secret problem someone doesn't want to admit to. It's stupid to think there's always a secret coverup.

this is the internet! you can expect people saying stuff just to derail because they don't agree on 'fun'. even people with counter-agenda accusing you of having an agenda. it can even get to personal disqualification, which is the lowest level fortunately not very common in this forum.

my point is that there's no need to generalize. every conversation has its ups and downs, you'll get valuable and not so valuable bits, take what you want from it and ignore the rest (or sometimes a bit of forum pvp or cat-o-mouse can be fun too!).

 

[CMDR Corlas]

No?
Your OP is basically saying exactly that:



For someone the game is not better enough Problem
It would be more fun to.... Solution

And that someone has to accept that there certainly is someone else that might be enjoying the game as it is and his "fun" might not be fun for the other one.
Hence the suggestion for an alternate approach / workaround / whatever

No. It's not always "problem/solution". Sometimes it's just "this would be fun".

"This would be fun" doesn't need a workaround. Workarounds are invalid there, because they're not the fun thing. Workarounds are for problems. And there was no problem. Sometimes it's just about the fun.

This really isn't a hard concept.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

this is the internet! you can expect people saying stuff just to derail because they don't agree on 'fun'. even people with counter-agenda accusing you of having an agenda. it can even get to personal disqualification, which is the lowest level fortunately not very common in this forum.

my point is that there's no need to generalize. every conversation has its ups and downs, you'll get valuable and not so valuable bits, take what you want from it and ignore the rest (or sometimes a bit of forum pvp or cat-o-mouse can be fun too!).

And sometimes it's fun to generalize in a rant. This is the internet, after all.

But really, look at some of these responses. It's amazing that some of these people actually think they're being "helpful" in deciding that "wouldn't it be fun if..." always means there's a secret problem for them to solve.

 

[Nasc]

As stated in the suggestion thread that may or may not have helped kick off this one: Sometimes "fun" things have limitations like server side and hardware limitations.

Alternatively, it would be fun if this thread didn't exist.

 

[Northpin]

"This would be fun"

For you

For the other one (that is suggesting nightvision) it won't be fun.

This really isn't a hard concept.

I'm starting to doubt that, but indeed what is fun for you might not be fun for someone else.

 

[znôrt]

And sometimes it's fun to generalize in a rant. This is the internet, after all.

oh, i see! you're looking for trouble!

Spoiler

 

[Dommarraa]

I always look at my customers suggestions with the mantra of
"The Customer is never wrong"
thats NOT the same as "The Customer is always right"

When a customer gives a suggestion, they have a problem. Their solution might not be the right solution for everyone, or for them. Their problem might not even be the problem they think they have ! Its up to me as a professional software developer to get to the bottom of their need, and provide a solution for them that benefits others. Sometimes you cant, sometimes you dont want to because it would not fit your design or cause other issues, sometimes you dont because it would be far too expensive compared to the size of the issue.

Thats FDs job, its not the job of other customers to shout it down, insist there isnt a problem.], or otherwise attempt to derail FD from looking at the problem seriously. I would NEVER let customers comment on other peoples suggestions. They are welcome to see them, and support them (vote/like) if they agree, raise their own similar but different suggestion but never comment.

If you are one of those people that like to argue about other peoples ideas, maybe rethink if its actually helpfull, or if you even understand the original suggestion. You are welcome to your opinion, but is it your job to police other peoples ?

 

[CMDR Corlas]

For you

For the other one (that is suggesting nightvision) it won't be fun.

Yes, but then they should say that. "That wouldn't be fun for me", accepting that it's your gameplay that would be affected, and focusing on how you would be affected is worlds different from projecting all that onto the first person, and claiming it's really just them not understanding game mechanics, or whatever else they're projecting.

I have zero problems with legitimate feedback, good or bad. What I am annoyed with is people projecting their own concerns about gameplay on to others.

Stop projecting. Own it. That's all.

But the suggestions forum is a sea of people projecting. They can have the same basic complaints even, I don't care. But the projection is such crap.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I always look at my customers suggestions with the mantra of
"The Customer is never wrong"
thats NOT the same as "The Customer is always right"

When a customer gives a suggestion, they have a problem. Their solution might not be the right solution for everyone, or for them. Their problem might not even be the problem they think they have ! Its up to me as a professional software developer to get to the bottom of their need, and provide a solution for them that benefits others. Sometimes you cant, sometimes you dont want to because it would not fit your design or cause other issues, sometimes you dont because it would be far too expensive compared to the size of the issue.

Thats FDs job, its not the job of other customers to shout it down, insist there isnt a problem.], or otherwise attempt to derail FD from looking at the problem seriously. I would NEVER let customers comment on other peoples suggestions. They are welcome to see them, and support them (vote/like) if they agree, raise their own similar but different suggestion but never comment.

If you are one of those people that like to argue about other peoples ideas, maybe rethink if its actually helpfull, or if you even understand the original suggestion. You are welcome to your opinion, but is it your job to police other peoples ?

Exactly.

 

[Florenus]

I always look at my customers suggestions with the mantra of
"The Customer is never wrong"
thats NOT the same as "The Customer is always right"

When a customer gives a suggestion, they have a problem. Their solution might not be the right solution for everyone, or for them. Their problem might not even be the problem they think they have ! Its up to me as a professional software developer to get to the bottom of their need, and provide a solution for them that benefits others. Sometimes you cant, sometimes you dont want to because it would not fit your design or cause other issues, sometimes you dont because it would be far too expensive compared to the size of the issue.

Thats FDs job, its not the job of other customers to shout it down, insist there isnt a problem.], or otherwise attempt to derail FD from looking at the problem seriously. I would NEVER let customers comment on other peoples suggestions. They are welcome to see them, and support them (vote/like) if they agree, raise their own similar but different suggestion but never comment.

If you are one of those people that like to argue about other peoples ideas, maybe rethink if its actually helpfull, or if you even understand the original suggestion. You are welcome to your opinion, but is it your job to police other peoples ?

The problem with Elite suggestion forum is that there is liking the OP post, but no way to dislike it.
The only way to make it visible that you're against some idea is to comment on the suggestion.

 

[Northpin]

Yes, but then they should say that. "That wouldn't be fun for me", accepting that it's your gameplay that would be affected, and focusing on how you would be affected is worlds different from projecting all that onto the first person, and claiming it's really just them not understanding game mechanics, or whatever else they're projecting.

Well, they're making a suggestion to change the game to suit their idea of FUN without acknowledging that for someone else it might not be fun.
The other one is being polite and is coming with a suggestion for a workaround so they could keep their fun while you may reach yours
Very few (none actually) will be that blunt to say: your idea of fun is crap, GTFO weirdo


For example, I would really love to be able to enjoy my Flight Carrier.
Or the next CG/II

I'm not saying i would not enjoy the next patch, but It would have been more fun to have a Carrier now.

 

[Riverside]

I find the role other contributors take as devil's advocate can be a useful test for an idea. We are here because of a shared interest in a game, not because we are experts in debate or particularly social people, although they can be secondary factors.

I try (not always successfully) to look past the way things are said & look objectively at any points raised in the post, and address those. But sometimes there is nothing to address.

However it's also worth bearing in mind that for the most part FDev are not looking for suggestions, it's stated in the T&C of this forum I think.

So really, it you're not in it for the 'lively debate' you may as well just post your OP & leave it there.

 

[Ezren]

So is this about people not liking the OP's thread for a power-independent AFMU, right? Could be one of the others. Where he called immediate responses "idiotic" and "foolish"? Any criticism of the idea wasn't met with discussion, it was met with insults and dismissal.

This thread is a bit ironic, being about how people don't make threads because they are having a problem... but it's a thread about a problem OP is having.

 

[Northpin]

This thread is a bit ironic

Bit ironic you say? Check this out

I have zero problems with legitimate feedback, good or bad. What I am annoyed with is people projecting their own concerns about gameplay on to others.

 

[Ezren]

Bit ironic you say? Check this out

Yeah I haven't really seen a strong indication of where it's been implied that the suggestions are all created from the user's problems. I haven't really read deep into all the threads and I don't intend to, but who knows? How deep does the irony go; is the idea that people are projecting on to Suggestions posters a projection, itself?

 

[nanite2000]

If an idea can't stand up to public criticism, it's not a good idea.
If an answer can be given that someone hasn't considered or bothered to look up for themselves, it's not pointless, it's an answer.
It's a bit early for a glass of whine to be honest.

Nevertheless, trotting out the old “So you want an I win button” is neither a public critique nor a researched response.

It’s a lazy response by lazy-minded people who aren’t smart enough to come up with a proper counter-argument and who repeatedly demonstrate a lack of self-awareness and capacity for rational discourse.

In other words: everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but some opinions do not need to be considered because the person who expresses them lacks the capacity for basic reasoning.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

I get the general Idea of the OP. It can be frustrating in the suggestions forum because there are the same like 6-10 people that act like anti aircraft and try to shoot down any ideas that could change the game.