Notice Notice regarding supply and demand of high-end minerals

Bennett

Bennett
Stephen Benedetti said:
  • When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
    • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature.
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Just some food for thought when considering future improvements:

If a commander receives a lower price for a commodity based on the amount currently in their Cargo Hold, would it not also make sense that a commander would be able to purchase commodities at a cheaper price, based on the amount of empty space in their Cargo Hold?
 

Wendake

Wendake
Stephen Benedetti said:
Greeting Commanders,


Since the launch of the January Update, we've received a lot of feedback about the changes made to the supply and demand volumes of specific high-end minerals. Today, we wanted to give you an update on some of the feedback you've been sharing with us.

Summary of the change:
In the January Update, we have rebalanced the mining of certain high-end commodities. to better represent a realistic supply and demand process based on the system's economy. This means that a station's purchasing price for minerals will reduce as the demand is met. With this change, we've also adjusted the supply and demand levels of different economies. For example, there will be a lower demand in Colony economies for high-end minerals, as those economies do not require as much, but in a Refinery economies, they will have a high demand for high-end minerals, as those economies require more. By implementing these changes we wanted to generate "gold-rush" opportunities, that dynamically respond to player interaction, increasing the viability of smaller mining vessels, and rewarding early participants who sell their minerals in high demand locations first.

Thanks to reports from the community, we've identified a number of issues in regards to mining and the supply and demand of minerals. The team are going to be investigating these issues, but please keep those reports coming in through the Issue Tracker.
  • The demand for Low Temperature Diamondshas remained high, , which is not in keepingwith the other high-end minerals.
    • From tomorrow, we will be aiming to correct this. Low Temperature Diamonds will now also be affected by the changes to supply and demand - as originally stated in the Patch Notes.
  • When identifying stations with supply and demand for high-end minerals such as Void Opals, Painite, and Low Temperature Diamonds, commanders need to have the specific mineral in their Cargo Hold in order to search for them on the Galaxy Map.
    • From tomorrow, commanders will be able to toggle these minerals in the Galaxy Map, without needing to have the commodities in their Cargo Hold.
  • When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
    • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature.
We believe that this change will allow for a much more realistic and dynamic system, where the economy responds to player input and provides a much more meaningful affect on galaxy. As always, we will continue to monitor your feedback and work together to develop our ever expanding galaxy.


o7
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Sounds good and thanks for the update !

Would be nice to have some feedback on the problem with the actual market tool in-game not being accurate (been shown in many youtubers videos (OA did the whole process to show the problem recently)).

+1 for kicking out the price change depending on cargo

o7
 
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mrxtheta

mrxtheta
Northpin said:
No, The situation is like a huge truck unloading 20 pack to a kiosk... then moving along. But still being payed like unloading 2000 packets
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Exactly.This is NOT how things work in real life.

In real life. If demand is 20, you sell 20 for full price. If you want to sell more than demand, prices drops, and if you have to much - you have to pay for "destruction". That's why you have to pay for taking the trash.
 
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SciTrekker

SciTrekker
Stephen Benedetti said:
  • When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
    • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature.
Click to expand...
I hope "the team" will consider some UI changes/additions to tell pilots how the price is calculated.

I question the premise here, though. Before the recent changes, as far as I can recall, I always got what the Commodities and Galaxy Map filter said I would get. no hidden discounts were applied (unless they were part of a fraction/decimal not shown in the UI).
 

Maolagin

M
Factabulous said:
This ... is so weird. I'm glad my local shops don't base their prices on what cash I have ...
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It makes perfect sense, given the limitations of the market interface.

Consider that what happens when you click on a commodity in the market sale screen is, you ask the buyers to offer a bid on between 1 and N units of the good, where N is the maximum amount you have to sell. If demand is low, they are naturally going to offer a lower price than if you asked them to bid on just one unit, because you can demand they honor that price for any quantity up to the maximum you have. The same effect could be obtained much less confusingly if the interface was updated to recompute the bid price in real time as you adjust the sale quantity. But as things stand now, each price offer probably requires a round trip to the transaction server, so it's a nonstarter for that to happen every time you click the button to change the quantity.
 

Rytram

R
Stephen Benedetti said:
When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
  • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature
Click to expand...
THIS really ME OFF. Firstly, there is NO indicator that lets you know what that cap even is. I turned in 157 LTD's this morning. The market price at that station was just above 1.2M/T with a very high demand, but MY rate was just over 1M/T and it was only 157T. There is no threshold display that lets you know where the price difference takes place just that you are essentially punished for actually doing the work.

Secondly, a 20% cut is absurd. I'm inclined to believe the Dev's don't play this game, because if they did they would know how hard and painstaking it is to even mine LTD's. I'm fairly new to mining so it isn't exactly an art form for me, but it took me like 2hr maybe 3hrs to mine that many between core and laser in a pristine double hotspot outside the bubble.

This pointless mechanic needs to get axed. It serves no purpose other than punishing people who work harder to get more in a single trip. Think about it realistically. the Dev's are assuming that someone who brings in 50T and a person who brings in 500T are the same. they are not. The person who brings in 500T takes about 10x longer to mine that amount. So it isn't about fast cash. The 50T miner makes more trips and mines faster where as the 500T takes less trips but mines longer. Punishing someone for mining longer shouldn't be a thing. It is like FDev doesn't WANT people to play their game. The dev's think they are encouraging fairness but they are not, because if they were smart enough to see the difference between the 50T and the 500T they would see that it IS fair. The time spent equals out. The 500T miner isn't gaining a massive advantage over the 50T miner at all, because, if you put them side by side on a 5hr clock they would mine roughly the same amount of minerals (with exception of who is the more efficient and skilled miner).

I am all for the Supply and demand system as long as it works like it should. A fluctuating market where the HOT seller changes with the market. One week it could be Painite, the next it could be Voids. After that it could be LTD's and then maybe Alexanderite. Depending on the market fluctuations based on supply and demand. THIS is a good system that keeps the mining game interesting. but your damn tariffs are fracking stupid and discourages players from participating in the game and appreciating your work.

So consider THIS player feedback when you decide to make a balance change. Maybe your team lead needs to enroll in a class for economics before they decide to make economy changes in your game that make no sense.
 
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JetsonRING

JetsonRING
Let me see if I have this right:

Instead of a Commodity Market purchasing price for a given commodity being based on quantity-demanded by customers, the price a Market is willing to pay is now based on the travelling salesman's supply? What the phuque??

And even if small quantities are sold to the market, which should keep the quantity-demanded high since available supplies will remain limited, the Market's purchase price offer still drops lower? What the phuque??

These changes just add up to "Moar Nerf Hammer!".
 
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Rich32uk

R
So are you going to raise the prices for salt? I can imagine the demand is going to be pretty high in certain areas of the universe :)
 

DunkleAura

D
biggest B.S. ever! this update is just BAD and has nothing to do with realism! It's just a big nerf. First time ever do i consider stop playing elite. All the nerfs isn't fun anymore. Sorry. YES i love Elite i love the Galaxy, i love to fly my Vessel. but the nerfs makes it very very hard to stay in the game.

NO, the market doesn't make any sense!

Sorry had to rant my £0.02
 

Red Anders

Red Anders
The changes in general I have no issues with, I've said that several times.

The whole concept of the price depending on the amount of the commodity you are carrying is nuts though. Sorry to be so blunt but it is.

If I have a bag of 20 oranges and I know someone wants 10 oranges at a quid each, leaving aside the fact they have a peculiar notion of the cost of fruit, the fact I have 20 doesn't make a scrap of difference to what I expect to get paid.

f I had 5, I would expect to meet half his demand by selling five at a quid each. If I had 10 I would expect to meet all of his demand by selling ten at a quid each. If I have 250,000, I would still expect to meet all his demand by selling him 10 at a quid each.

In the last scenario, we worry about what I'm going to do with the other 249,990 right after I've sold the guy that wanted ten for a quid each his ten oranges. For a quid each.

The game presupposes that I'm going to sell all of my oranges to that one guy, regardless of how many I have, or how many he wants and even if he'll only offer me a penny each for them because I have way more than he actually wants or needs. That's about as far away from any realistic concept of supply and demand as it's possible to get because I would just sell that guy his ten oranges for the price he wanted to pay and then head off.

Until the buyer has satisfied their demand, the surplus of supply is irrelevant. It only becomes relevant when the immediate imperative to obtain a given amount of the item has been satisfied and we're into purchases which are no longer essential.
 
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Deleted member 38366

D
Thinking about it, the only place where I could envision the price dropping with increasing size of Cargo carried to sell is when the sale results in a factual oversupply situation.

I.e. trying to sell 50t into a market that currently only has 16t Demand left.

Economic formula to calc the price then :
16t Demand met = full price as shown per demand level for that part
34t oversupply = reduced price for that part, oversupplying into a 0-Demand market
For sake of transparency, a small red notification given in the Commodity Sale UI as soon as more tons are being selected than demand exists ("Note : xx tons oversupply, total price for this transaction would be {n}% below market standard")

Selling 500t into an already saturated market (0t Demand left), a worst-case trade :
0t Demand left = no part of the sale is running at full price
500t oversupply = reduced price, oversupplying into a 0-Demand market
Red notification given as above ("Note : xxx tons oversupply, price is {nn}% below market standard") as soon as demand is exceeded.

Then even inexperienced CMDRs would clearly see the effect of their intended action and make a sound decision whether to still sell - or seek a better location with higher demand figures.
No more intransparent surprise and the price reduction due to sales volume (if intended and there to stay) at least makes sense.
And it's only kicking in when a factual and visible oversupply is offered to the Market.

Overall, that would be also in line with selling Commodities into Markets (wrong Economy type) that have no Demand by design. That normally nets a reduced price as well (i.e. stuff you just want to get rid of).

IMHO that'd be a workable, transparent and logical compromise (in case FDev wants to retain the mechanic).
 
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MAD7 Danuwoa

MAD7 Danuwoa
Flimley said:
The demand price should be honoured until your goods have been sold really. Then, the new demand price should be calculated Afterwards.
Otherwise it will feel as though the station is luring you in on false pretences.
Flimley
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Being punished for providing a station with what they are requesting makes 0% sense.
Looks like the price would decrease as the actual demand is being met over the course of the day.
You know... Like an actual economy.
Well.. I just got into mining recently.
Looks like I just got out.
 

Vayporz

Vayporz
I'm sorry but as it's been said in other posts that provided the "feedback" you all supposedly used to bring abut these changes, any approach where you get the best price for a commodity when you have none of it in your cargo hold to sell is asinine. And I'm not seeing anything on fixing the underlying problem of a very poorly defined economic model in this communique. I'm appreciative of the "we're fixing the system map tools" that should have already been fixed... but this is really only putting "lipstick on the pig."
 

wiredrat

W
Welcome to capitalism!

The price based on your cargo hold is completely correct. I won't say it's fair. But it is real. There are a few reason for that.
  1. Bulk prices are always lower than retail prices. So selling a good bunch of items should be cheaper than selling a few. To avoid cheating by selling one by one, cargo hold is a good measure for bulk prices.
  2. You want your cargo space back. That forces you to sell sooner, at lower prices. You want more money? Then wait until prices rise, but you won't be mining more LTD.
  3. Supply also regulate prices, not only demand. If you put an big selling order on the market prices go low even before the transaction is made.
  4. Look at the news. How many farmers are struggling because the have to sell at minimun prices, even lower than production costs.
 
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