Notice Notice regarding supply and demand of high-end minerals

Welcome to capitalism!

The price based on your cargo hold is completely correct. I won't say it's fair. But it is real. There are a few reason for that.
  1. Bulk prices are always lower than retail prices. So selling a good bunch of items should be cheaper than selling a few. To avoid cheating by selling one by one, cargo hold is a good measure for bulk prices.
  2. You want your cargo space back. That forces you to sell sooner, at lower prices. You want more money? Then wait until prices rise, but you won't be mining more LTD.
  3. Supply also regulate prices, not only demand. If you put an big selling order on the market prices go low even before the transaction is made.
  4. Look at the news. How many farmers are struggling because the have to sell at minimun prices, even lower than production costs.

Large Miner ships, or those wing mining, are working on economies of scale. And I kinda figured this was capitalism too.

But as the seller, if I have 512 of something that doesn't mean I'm interested in selling them all in one spot / outpost/ station... I agree bulk is cheaper, but the seller should be able to choose to sell a smaller quantity, and not be stuck with the bulk price just because they are carrying it around. The person who decides to sell 100 units out of their 512 unit hold is going to put in more time going to other stations and they are going to have to decide for themselves if the profit/hour is worth the extra jumps, dealing with pirates, etc.

Or, let pilots store loaded cargo modules...that way they can wait for the market to improve. Heck, let them take "futures" on a commodity?

I know a thing or two about farming and ranching, and you are correct. It's why certain commodities become subsidized by government. And those subsidies are supposed to help provide farmers time to adjust to market demands or find new markets for their products, but they aren't as responsive as most markets, which are also affected by a thousand other variables, like the weather (not just local to the farmer, but global.) Some of us don't have to read the news, our families have lived through it and is why many of us didn't follow in the legacy after watching our parents deal with making the family budget and pay for the ranch while contending with the huge economic swings agricultural production... it doesn't make for much of game.
 
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Thinking about it, the only place where I could envision the price dropping with increasing size of Cargo carried to sell is when the sale results in a factual oversupply situation.

I.e. trying to sell 50t into a market that currently only has 16t Demand left.

Economic formula to calc the price then :
16t Demand met = full price as shown per demand level for that part
34t oversupply = reduced price for that part, oversupplying into a 0-Demand market
For sake of transparency, a small red notification given in the Commodity Sale UI as soon as more tons are being selected than demand exists ("Note : xx tons oversupply, total price for this transaction would be {n}% below market standard")

Selling 500t into an already saturated (0t Demand left), a worst-case trade :
0t Demand left = no part of the sale is running at full price
500t oversupply = reduced price, oversupplying into a 0-Demand market
Red notification given as above ("Note : xxx tons oversupply, price is {nn}% below market standard") as soon as demand is exceeded.

Then even inexperienced CMDRs would clearly see the effect of their intended action and make a sound decision whether to still sell - or seek a better location with higher demand figures.
No more intransparent surprise and the price reduction due to sales volume (if intended and there to stay) at least makes sense.
And it's only kicking in when a factual and visible oversupply is offered to the Market.

Overall, that would be also in line with selling Commodities into Markets (wrong Economy type) that have no Demand by design. That normally nets a reduced price as well (i.e. stuff you just want to get rid of).

IMHO that'd be a workable, transparent and logical compromise (in case FDev wants to retain the mechanic).

This is exactly how it should work. Let me sell at full market value until I meet the demand. Then if I so choose, I can sell more at a reduced price or take my cargo elsewhere to another station that has what i'm selling in demand. And Yes I agree with the others that said the bulk selling tax needs to go.
 
Welcome to capitalism!

The price based on your cargo hold is completely correct. I won't say it's fair. But it is real. There are a few reason for that.
  1. Bulk prices are always lower than retail prices. So selling a good bunch of items should be cheaper than selling a few. To avoid cheating by selling one by one, cargo hold is a good measure for bulk prices.
  2. You want your cargo space back. That forces you to sell sooner, at lower prices. You want more money? Then wait until prices rise, but you won't be mining more LTD.
  3. Supply also regulate prices, not only demand. If you put an big selling order on the market prices go low even before the transaction is made.
  4. Look at the news. How many farmers are struggling because the have to sell at minimun prices, even lower than production costs.
But if they want 30k and I turn-up with 256, why would the price per unit drop?
 
Since someone is bound to bring rarity into the equation, let's take a look at how that works.

I have 250,000 oranges and the guy who wanted to buy 10 for a quid each says 'lol you have 250,000 of them, no way are they worth that so I'm only going to pay you 10p each for my 10.'

I tell him to take a long walk off a short pier.

He says 'come on man, you have 250,000 of them!'

I say 'Yeah. But how many do you have..?'
 
The reason "bulk sales tax" as it's called exists is because of scenarios like this.

Let's say I'm a low population system, and max demand for, say, LTDs is 50 units at 600k, and when there's 0 demand, it's 100k, and when half it's demand is satisfied, it's 300k.

If i rock up to a station like that with 200 LTDs, and there's no bulk sales tax, using the game's current sales mechanics, i would get 600k for each tonne, which is not correct considering if you sold tonne for tonne, you'd gradually get less than 600k for each one beyond the first, down to 100k once demand is met.

That's why bulk sales tax exists, and i think that's pretty reasonable. But it's not well represented in the game. There's no mechanism to see that, for example, the first 5t sell for 600k, next 20t sell for 250k and the last 35t sells for 100k; instead, you just get told "225k per tonne" so people think the market tools are wrong.

They're not wrong, they're just not telling the full picture, and that definitely needs a fix.
 
The reason "bulk sales tax" as it's called exists is because of scenarios like this.

Let's say I'm a low population system, and max demand for, say, LTDs is 50 units at 600k, and when there's 0 demand, it's 100k, and when half it's demand is satisfied, it's 300k.

If i rock up to a station like that with 200 LTDs, and there's no bulk sales tax, using the game's current sales mechanics, i would get 600k for each tonne, which is not correct considering if you sold tonne for tonne, you'd gradually get less than 600k for each one beyond the first, down to 100k once demand is met.

That's why bulk sales tax exists, and i think that's pretty reasonable. But it's not well represented in the game. There's no mechanism to see that, for example, the first 5t sell for 600k, next 20t sell for 250k and the last 35t sells for 100k; instead, you just get told "225k per tonne" so people think the market tools are wrong.

They're not wrong, they're just not telling the full picture, and that definitely needs a fix.
But that's not what it does is it? You can't sell the first 50 for full price, then go somewhere else and sell another 50 for full price. So you can do is sell any number at the low price .. it's just wrong, or very very badly explained. Or both.

I still have found no explanation of what this "bulk tax" is supposed to look like other than vague handwaving - I can't help think everyone is imagining it differently...
 
The reason "bulk sales tax" as it's called exists is because of scenarios like this.

Let's say I'm a low population system, and max demand for, say, LTDs is 50 units at 600k, and when there's 0 demand, it's 100k, and when half it's demand is satisfied, it's 300k.

If i rock up to a station like that with 200 LTDs, and there's no bulk sales tax, using the game's current sales mechanics, i would get 600k for each tonne, which is not correct considering if you sold tonne for tonne, you'd gradually get less than 600k for each one beyond the first, down to 100k once demand is met.

That's why bulk sales tax exists, and i think that's pretty reasonable. But it's not well represented in the game. There's no mechanism to see that, for example, the first 5t sell for 600k, next 20t sell for 250k and the last 35t sells for 100k; instead, you just get told "225k per tonne" so people think the market tools are wrong.

They're not wrong, they're just not telling the full picture, and that definitely needs a fix.

The 'fix' is to change the sale mechanics so that in your example you could sell 25 for 600k each (or rather the applicable price(s) for tons 1 to 25 only) and then go somewhere else to sell the rest. That's the problem - that simply having the items should not determine the price because that is making an assumption that you are going to sell the lot. At the moment of my transaction, the supply in that system is not the number in my hold, it's the number that I'm willing to remove from my hold for a given price.

Explaining a mechanic that's basically (a word similar to bollards) doesn't make it less err.. bollards.
 
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Greeting Commanders,


Since the launch of the January Update, we've received a lot of feedback about the changes made to the supply and demand volumes of specific high-end minerals. Today, we wanted to give you an update on some of the feedback you've been sharing with us.

Summary of the change:
In the January Update, we have rebalanced the mining of certain high-end commodities. to better represent a realistic supply and demand process based on the system's economy. This means that a station's purchasing price for minerals will reduce as the demand is met. With this change, we've also adjusted the supply and demand levels of different economies. For example, there will be a lower demand in Colony economies for high-end minerals, as those economies do not require as much, but in a Refinery economies, they will have a high demand for high-end minerals, as those economies require more. By implementing these changes we wanted to generate "gold-rush" opportunities, that dynamically respond to player interaction, increasing the viability of smaller mining vessels, and rewarding early participants who sell their minerals in high demand locations first.

Thanks to reports from the community, we've identified a number of issues in regards to mining and the supply and demand of minerals. The team are going to be investigating these issues, but please keep those reports coming in through the Issue Tracker.
  • The demand for Low Temperature Diamondshas remained high, , which is not in keepingwith the other high-end minerals.
    • From tomorrow, we will be aiming to correct this. Low Temperature Diamonds will now also be affected by the changes to supply and demand - as originally stated in the Patch Notes.
  • When identifying stations with supply and demand for high-end minerals such as Void Opals, Painite, and Low Temperature Diamonds, commanders need to have the specific mineral in their Cargo Hold in order to search for them on the Galaxy Map.
    • From tomorrow, commanders will be able to toggle these minerals in the Galaxy Map, without needing to have the commodities in their Cargo Hold.
  • When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
    • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature.
We believe that this change will allow for a much more realistic and dynamic system, where the economy responds to player input and provides a much more meaningful affect on galaxy. As always, we will continue to monitor your feedback and work together to develop our ever expanding galaxy.


o7
So you're going to be taking away a quick way for players to make money so they can do the things they want in the game not once but freaking TWICE!? This is outrageous. Actually no, outrageous would imply incompetence. This seems malicious to me. This indicates to me (and presumably many other pilots that play this game to have fun rather than grind) that you're intentionally trying to force players to grind more and more for the things they need or want. This is idiotic at best and almost unethical at worst. This is the kind of behavior that will make commanders check out rapidly. Things like this make me wish that star citizen was doing better than it is because elite needs more competition.
As things are currently, elite dangerous is the space simulation equivalent of the United States post office. They hold a virtual monopoly over their niche because they caught onto the game genre early and initially had a really good design. Now they're getting sloppy and downright idiotic because they have no competition for the most part and as such they can screw the pooch hard (like when they introduce broken mechanics, ignore current problems and bugs, or nerf a primary draw to more casual players who unfortunately can't make a living playing the game like high end mining) and not worry. This will not stand for long. People will either stop playing completely, or some competition will come and drop elite like a rock because unlike the post office, the government does not enforce elite's monopoly.
Long story short, you devs need to quit stupid things like this. You're making what was an awesome game into a dull grind simulation where people can't do the fun things because the closest thing to a gold rush in the game is something that might get you a new ship in months instead of a few days casually playing. This will push people away. Simple as that. It's definitely making me consider finding a different game to play.
 
The 'fix' is to change the sale mechanics so that in your example you could sell 25 for 600k each and then go somewhere else to sell the rest. That's the problem - that simply having the items should not determine the price because that is making an assumption that you are going to sell the lot. At the moment of my transaction, the supply in that system is not the number in my hold, it's the number that I'm willing to remove from my hold for a given price.

Explaining a mechanic that's basically (a word similar to bollards) doesn't make it less err.. bollards.
Oh yes, definitely.

I stopped short of what the "full picture" and what a fix would look like, but it's nothing short than a compete mechanical rework of the market mechanics.

My post was simply explaining what's going on under the hood. That it's not manageable or controllable is a design oversight by FD which has existed since the games inception; the assumption that players would never do anything else besides sell their entire cargo contents.

The old 1t trading exploit was the first example of this assumption, and the implementation of BST is another, as well as how selling on the market defaults to your full cargo contents for that type.
 
It makes perfect sense, given the limitations of the market interface

I had to activate my forum account for the first time since I bought this game to reply to this.

They MADE the market interface. They designed it, coded it, retain full control over it - they are literally the genesis of this interface from conception to execution. They choose not to do something better on purpose, not because their hands are tied. They could have simply taken more time and had a dynamic price based on the demand.

What I have in my hold shouldn't matter at all. We don't get a 25% discount buying in bulk
 
Welcome to capitalism!

The price based on your cargo hold is completely correct. I won't say it's fair. But it is real. There are a few reason for that.
  1. Bulk prices are always lower than retail prices. So selling a good bunch of items should be cheaper than selling a few. To avoid cheating by selling one by one, cargo hold is a good measure for bulk prices.
  2. You want your cargo space back. That forces you to sell sooner, at lower prices. You want more money? Then wait until prices rise, but you won't be mining more LTD.
  3. Supply also regulate prices, not only demand. If you put an big selling order on the market prices go low even before the transaction is made.
  4. Look at the news. How many farmers are struggling because the have to sell at minimun prices, even lower than production costs.

1. Nobody is saying bulk discounts shouldn't be a thing. We're saying that we want to know the bulk rates and have them be reasonable. Invisible discounts aren't a thing, especially if you're the one selling. To add to this, selling 1 at a time would be dis-incentivised because as demand lowers, so too would the price. Meaning selling it in bulk at 1 price with a discount would still pay more than dolling it out 1 by 1 with full price. This also ties into supply and demand. I'm willing to sell all of it for x price but at a discount of y.
2. This is an arbitrary limitation imposed by FDev. If we had access to storage, which people have been asking for for a long time, I'd be more than happy not to sell, put it all in storage, and let it sit there until prices meet my wish to sell. It's poor game design that says I have to always have the cargo on my ship with me wherever I go. Also dont forget, the buyer wants the product too, so if I decide not to sell, even if I have to wait to get paid, they have to wait to have supply. They should be just as incentivized for me to sell to them as I am.
3. Sure. But how do they know what my supply is? Until I make a sale or advertise how much i have, my quantities are unknown. I could have 5 or 500, but that's for me to know. What if I'm only wanting to sell a small amount? Why should my price be set based on the cargo I'm not selling and is effectively not available for market?
4. That has more to do with trade tariffs and trade deals amongst other countries. A more accurate comparison would be a local restaurant ordering bulk from a local farmer. The economical ecosystem is in a much smaller pool. Granted I think it would be interesting to have greater impacts, but this is FDev we're talking about.
 
  • When selling minerals at a station, the price that is offered is based on the amount currently in your Cargo Hold..
    • While this has always been the case, we've passed the feedback on to the team for consideration for a future improvement of the feature.

I'm sorry but this is patently false. Any veteran player can tell you that this behavior has never affected sell prices in the past. The only place this mechanism was in play was to limit the purchase of rare goods if you already had them in your hold.

I don't know if this is a case of "I was told this was the case" or an intentional attempt to deceive, either way it's poor form.

Frontier, if you truly are "listening to the players" you're listening to the wrong ones. Recent out of touch decisions like the mining nerf are pushing players away in droves. I sincerely hope someone with decision-making power begins to see the damage being done to the game.
 
Welcome to capitalism!

The price based on your cargo hold is completely correct. I won't say it's fair. But it is real. There are a few reason for that.
  1. Bulk prices are always lower than retail prices. So selling a good bunch of items should be cheaper than selling a few. To avoid cheating by selling one by one, cargo hold is a good measure for bulk prices.
  2. You want your cargo space back. That forces you to sell sooner, at lower prices. You want more money? Then wait until prices rise, but you won't be mining more LTD.
  3. Supply also regulate prices, not only demand. If you put an big selling order on the market prices go low even before the transaction is made.
  4. Look at the news. How many farmers are struggling because the have to sell at minimun prices, even lower than production costs.

Trying to use real-life logic is immaterial. It's bad gameplay and it's pushing people away.
 
The old 1t trading exploit was the first example of this assumption

It's funny how sometimes you see something but don't really look at it. You're right obviously, the whole reason a per-transaction mechanic was exploitable in that way is that there was an assumption that you'd only ever make one transaction at a station to sell everything you had, but I'd never thought about the actual cause of it.
 
I'm sorry but this is patently false. Any veteran player can tell you that this behavior has never affected sell prices in the past. The only place this mechanism was in play was to limit the purchase of rare goods if you already had them in your hold.
Not sure what "veterans" you refer to, but myself and many others i know who've been around since launch have known about and observed this mechanic for years.

It can make or break profit margins, and why i never trade in single commodity types.
 
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Not sure what "veterans" you refer to, but myself and many others i know who've been around since launch have known about and observed this mechanic for years.

It can make or break profit margins, and why i never trade in single commodity types.

It's much less noticeable with many commodities simply because the demand is higher, it's the relatively low numbers that make it more apparent with these rare minerals. If you rock up to a system that wants 50,000 whatevers, your cutter full is only going to chip at the demand so you're getting the average of the price for the first 700 or so tons, which is likely 100%.

There's also the question of observability. How many times have you seen a price on EDDB, gone to the station and got a bit less and assumed it was down to the price on EDDB being an hour old. Seems perfectly plausible, so you don't think about it any more. The one thing you'll never know, because it can't be observed in the game, is what price you would have been offered at that time, at that station, with that level of demand, but only 100 tons in your hold instead of 700.

Regardless, when demand is high the power should lie with those who control the supply. When demand is low, the consumer is in the driving seat. In Elite, if you're a supplier it's your day in the barrel every day.
 
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