Without wanting to get into economics too heavily, that only works because gas/petrol prices are actually driven by what is effectively cartel pricing though. If any one of those firms decided to drop the price of gas in that rich town, the others would match it inside a week.
Notice Notice regarding supply and demand of high-end minerals
- Thread starter Stephen Benedetti
- Start date
Without wanting to get into economics too heavily, that only works because gas/petrol prices are actually driven by what is effectively cartel pricing though. If any one of those firms decided to drop the price of gas in that rich town, the others would match it inside a week.
Well, I just waded through all 12 of these pages of angst just to see if it's occurred to anyone that basing the sale price on how much you're carrying might have shown us what will make a mining Fleet Carrier desirable.
Do all the mining you like in whatever ship you like, store the loot on the fleet carrier*,and then ferry it to market in a smaller ship with less capacity and so get higher prices.
* A feature that has not been confirmed... but without cargo storage the idea of a Trade or Mining Fleet Carrier doesn't make much sense at all.
Do all the mining you like in whatever ship you like, store the loot on the fleet carrier*,and then ferry it to market in a smaller ship with less capacity and so get higher prices.
* A feature that has not been confirmed... but without cargo storage the idea of a Trade or Mining Fleet Carrier doesn't make much sense at all.
Lol. "Today we launch Fleet Carriers! These have the largest cargo capacity in the game, so to balance it you can only unload that cargo in Sidewinders. Have a nice day!" ... said no sensible company ever...
(you may be correct, but you're making a lot of weird and somewhat salty assumptions
)
Indeed, pretty much how an outpost doesnt make any sense at all... and you cant even own it or jump it around
God, and when you think we have tens of thousands of them all over the bubble that make absolutely no sense
I'm sure that made sense to you, but it's opaque to me. How is the one like the other?
Seems to me you're trying to simulate a working economy but what you're actually doing is simulating the impression of a working economy.
In the real world, people create an offer to buy something for a certain base price. If no one is selling it and they really, really need it, they increase the price until either someone sells it to them, or the price reaches a point where it exceeds demand. And if someone shows up with all the items at once, they won't pay them half price because that's false advertising. Why aren't you doing that? Create demand and supply inside stations and fluctuate prices based on how much engagement players have with those commodities.
But no. Instead you're trying to make it look like players are interacting with those commodities. By lowering the prices when someone shows up with 500t of ore you're trying to make it look as though supply is higher than the demand before any ore is even sold. That is simply fake.
Also, this mechanic is completely killing any attempt at trading lower priced commodities. Before maybe one would have been inclined to transport 500t of random stuff from one base to the other. It had to be high quantities to make it worthwhile. But now, doing that will probably be at a loss, instead of at a profit.
Final thing: give commodities an actual use for players! Until then, no one will have any need of buying or selling things other than cash. Why not make commodities needed for engineering? What if i actually needed materials available on the market to engineer something?
In a game about exploration, the vastness of space, about combat, where engineering is the difference between good and great, here we are, trying to grind for hours and hours trying to scrape a living in order to have a few moments of fun until someone blows you up, and you have to go grind for several more hours. Why?
In the real world, people create an offer to buy something for a certain base price. If no one is selling it and they really, really need it, they increase the price until either someone sells it to them, or the price reaches a point where it exceeds demand. And if someone shows up with all the items at once, they won't pay them half price because that's false advertising. Why aren't you doing that? Create demand and supply inside stations and fluctuate prices based on how much engagement players have with those commodities.
But no. Instead you're trying to make it look like players are interacting with those commodities. By lowering the prices when someone shows up with 500t of ore you're trying to make it look as though supply is higher than the demand before any ore is even sold. That is simply fake.
Also, this mechanic is completely killing any attempt at trading lower priced commodities. Before maybe one would have been inclined to transport 500t of random stuff from one base to the other. It had to be high quantities to make it worthwhile. But now, doing that will probably be at a loss, instead of at a profit.
Final thing: give commodities an actual use for players! Until then, no one will have any need of buying or selling things other than cash. Why not make commodities needed for engineering? What if i actually needed materials available on the market to engineer something?
In a game about exploration, the vastness of space, about combat, where engineering is the difference between good and great, here we are, trying to grind for hours and hours trying to scrape a living in order to have a few moments of fun until someone blows you up, and you have to go grind for several more hours. Why?
Well, yes, that's pretty amusing and all.
(you may be correct, but you're making a lot of weird and somewhat salty assumptions
I only knew that I was making one, but yeah, I did emphasize the "might".
Deleted member 38366
D
You're mixing up buying and selling.
If you sell 1oz of Gold, you'll receive the price for 1oz of Gold.
If you sell 100oz of Gold, you'll receive the price for 100oz of Gold - not for 80oz. If any seller did that to you, they'd face criminal charges and you'd rightfully be angry.
It'd all make sense if you docked and purchased - and got a discount due to high amount (bulk) number you purchased.
In a sense, ELITE got the bulk trade tax all wrong. It should apply to purchasing things, never to selling things.
(even then, you don't receive discounts for purchasing multiple Ships, Weapons or from Engineers after finishing plenty of Modules)
IMHO our Ships do not warrant Industrial discounts, since we don't have MegaShips to fill with several thousands of tons in a single transaction.
Maybe if we done day got a Panther Clipper XL with 5000t Cargo size, offloading with Shuttles... then even larger Economies could react with a bulk trade discount.
Sorry, I don't get it. When you buy large amounts you expect a discount, but when someone else buys large amounts it's criminal when he gets a discount?
Disregarding the fact that there is an unlimited supply of LTD's to begin with...
If you're going to a supplier, and buying large amounts of an item from that supplier, who is sitting on a stockpile of the thing you want, there is a profit margin, the supplier may reduce his profit in order to increase his sales, and move units.
However if you are declaring a demand for an amount of an item to be delivered to you, and a price you are willing to pay for it, and someone shows up with a supply of that item you are asking for, I wasn't aware that it was commonplace to lower your buying price, because they had a larger vs. a smaller amount of the material you are wanting to purchase...
It might make sense for the buyer to lower the price if their demand was nearly met after the sale, but surely you wouldn't consider it fair and normal if you saw the buyer lower his price as you entered his business place with a load of the commodity he wanted. You'd consider that an underhanded move wouldn't you?
If I told you I wanted 100 of X and I'd pay 1$ per X, and you came to me with 99X, you'd be perfectly fine if I suddenly offered you 75$ because after I buy 99X I only need 1 more? But if you had offered me 10X I'd have given you 10$? How does that make any sense?
The amount of cargo in your hold should have zero bearing on the price at the time of sale. If you are exceeding demand, the station should buy to its demand cap, readjust the pricing and then offer you an adjusted price for your no longer required cargo.
From what was shown to us, carriers are nothing more than personal outposts (or megaships if you prefer), able to dock 16 ships and able to jump up to 500ly.
They can repair rearm and refuel our ships and the different outfitting options will enable the features we are used to have in our stations and outposts: UC, black market, maybe a commodity market, ship outfitting.
They are not ships, dont have a cockpit/bridge and cant be flown and nothing implies they will have cargo storage.
I don't take such an absolute view, but I can definitely see the case for this. Thing is, if you take this approach, then you have to figure that demand quantities don't play into sale prices - you would just get a quote price that is invisibly set by a demand slider, and perhaps a demand number that sets the maximum quantity the market will buy. I'm not really sure that would be any more transparent.
Unless you are a rather large institutional trader, nobody is going to give you a list price for 100s of oz of gold. Instead you would either take bids or seek out for quotes. That's ultimately one way of thinking about the origin of price-demand curves. For any given commodity, there are likely a few customers who need small quantities urgently, and more who need larger amounts less urgently. The former will pay a premium but not for more than they need right now, and if they have all been satisfied then you will have to either hold on to your supplies or sell to the larger cheaper buyer.
We've been told that they can repair, refuel and rearm; they seem to have some outfitting (listed as "module availability"); but no one from Frontier has said that they will incorporate "UC, black market, maybe a commodity market". Maybe they will, but neither you nor I know that.
A commodity market could sort of be usable, but I'd question what prices they'd offer you on your carrier. It would be separated from any faction's BGS states, so... galactic average price?
About all that would make those attractive to me would be cargo storage, which is why I said so. Obviously your mileage may vary. But none of the few features we know about, and none of the others you've listed, strike me as being of any use for a Trading or Mining Carrier.
But I think it's a mistake to think of them as equivalent to outposts, if only because their capacity is that of four or five outposts bolted together and then mounted on a 500 LY drive
.Deleted member 38366
D
What I meant is that we're talking about selling as an individual, not buying.
And we're not Institutional Investors - the Factions/Stations owning the Commodity Markets are.
So when you could buy let's say 150.000t off a huge Economy (10 Million in stock), it would be perfectly sensible to expect a bulk discount.
Instead, we're private customers taking small amounts, similar to "going shopping" in huge mega-stores.
If you buy 10 items or 100 doesn't matter, you'll pay full price unless there's some advertising discount on offer.
Now that place you went shopping to is ordering many Millions of items in comparison, which from mega-producers.
Those entities then make bulk deals and special contracts, which normally include heavy bulk discounts - because it's two Institutions dealing with each other in amounts that are many orders of magnitude larger than the tiny amounts we privately go shopping for.
For that reason, us filling up our gas tank with i.e. 30 Gallons pay exactly the same price as filling in only 5 Gallons to top off. Doesn't matter.
The salt here is truly hilarious.
oh thanks for that, funniest thing ive read in ages . Why stop there tho? Why not get rid of this silly relentless engineering clickgrind and make engineering results RNG instead?! That sounds fantastic and I cant imagine any years of relentless complaining about that either 
From Dictionary: demand noun. 5: the requirement of work or of the expenditure of a resource
Let me re-translate the sentence: A demands little minerals because A doesn't require much, but B demands much minerals because B requires much. More specifically, the requirement of minerals in A is low because A doesn't require much, but that of minerals in B is high because B requires more. In other words, the demand of minerals in A is low because A demands little minerals, but that of minerals in B is high because B demands much.
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I don't think someone going to a shop and buying a few pencils is comparable to any situation in Elite. We are regularly trading / mining with a few hundred tons of goods.
That's already how the demand and supply system works. You will get more money if you are selling at a market with a big demand.
If you are selling a huge quantity to a company they will always expect a discount. And every contractor will give that discount because they have lower logistic costs per item. That's how the real world works.
PS
What's stupid is that the bulk tax gets applied based on cargo rather than the actual transaction, I already mentioned that earlier.