Engineers Why is Engineering result random and not a fixed result you would expect from an Expert?

[metatheurgist]

That's right, but it also points to a missed opportunity to create real diversity with the engineers - because in the end the results are all the same. As it looks, these different results of the individual work steps are at best a symbolic bow to what you have described above, and could therefore now be homogenized as well. Which would have almost zero impact on the gameplay. I think the trivialization of the engineers is mainly due to the fact that mini-games are largely rejected by the community. So FDev doesn't even bother.

Well, we started with unique results for each module. That sucked hard. Trust me, it's better now.

 

[khalismur]

The upgrade increments are probably based on a gaussian distribution and I agree its senseless. I supposed it's a thing FDev implemented as a material sink to make sure players have to either farm them from time to time or often be in the lookout for them.

 

[Han_Zen]

why does it cost the same to engineer a 1E module and an 8A module?

Yeah, those tiny class 1 modules are so hard to work on. Can't even stand up right in the module bay of a Sidey.
They should cost more.

 

[F4fred]

As far as Engineer Logic goes, the one that puzzles me is the fact that as I improve my standing with an engineer, they get better at performing the lower-grade mods. E.g. when you've just unlocked Farseer, expect to take 3-4 rolls to max out the G3 level. Now that I'm max rep with her, it usually pops to mostly complete on the first try. Why? She serves thousands of pilots, it can't be that she's getting better in real time!

She is obviously sick of the sight of you and just wants rid of you as soon as possible. “Here it is perfect, now b*gger off!”

 

[TiberiusDuval]

As I have been enough Engineering lately, it got me wander, Why the an expert such as Engineer cannot provide a fixed result upgrade instead of random outcome?

If I go to a Professional expert, I would expect he/she will produce best result without doubt, specially If I AM the one bringing all the materials needed for that modification. Anybody know the logic behind it?

Seriously, I do not mind the mat gathering (grinding) as I take it as just gameplay. But it is annoying the heck out of me hearing from all the so called 'Engineers', "I cannot promise best result, please roll the dice".

It is like if you take your car to tuneup shop and try some very extensive tune up. Meaning lower grades are about very basic, but g5 is like very extreme tuning. Exaxt results even in real life are not quaranteed.

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

This is really the kind of discussion I was looking for. Some form of possible explanation or info I may or may not be aware of.

The real world example of Turbo engine modification and the quality of gathered materials does provide logical explanation.

I did notice as someone mentioned that after you reach Grade 5 access with an Engineer, it does take much less rolls for the lower grade mods. I was not here in the past, but I am here now. I believe Engineering adds great immersion to the game and it is a huge aspect of the game. I think there are room for improvement to the system for us Immersion crazies.

 

[Speedcuffs]

This is really the kind of discussion I was looking for. Some form of possible explanation or info I may or may not be aware of.

The real world example of Turbo engine modification and the quality of gathered materials does provide logical explanation.

I did notice as someone mentioned that after you reach Grade 5 access with an Engineer, it does take much less rolls for the lower grade mods. I was not here in the past, but I am here now. I believe Engineering adds great immersion to the game and it is a huge aspect of the game. I think there are room for improvement to the system for us Immersion crazies.

Also when engineering, keep an eye on the actual figures within the progress circles.
That last couple of % can be very expensive in terms of mats.

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Also when engineering, keep an eye on the actual figures within the progress circles.
That last couple of % can be very expensive in terms of mats.

I was wandering about that. It always seemed the last few minuscule % needs more full rolls than they should. I tried to push to 100% in the beginning then realized the numbers are not that different. If the increase was insignificant I just stop there now usually it is at ~98-99%. Thank you for confirming it.

 

[Speedcuffs]

I was wandering about that. It always seemed the last few minuscule % needs more full rolls than they should. I tried to push to 100% in the beginning then realized the numbers are not that different. If the increase was insignificant I just stop there now usually it is at ~98-99%. Thank you for confirming it.

Yes, unfortunately I'm one of 'those' people...
Can't. Leave. Unfinished! ✌

 

[metatheurgist]

Also when engineering, keep an eye on the actual figures within the progress circles.
That last couple of % can be very expensive in terms of mats.

That is pretty much my only gripe with the current engies. No roll should return less than 1%, maybe 5%.

 

[Red Anders]

That's right, but it also points to a missed opportunity to create real diversity with the engineers - because in the end the results are all the same. As it looks, these different results of the individual work steps are at best a symbolic bow to what you have described above, and could therefore now be homogenized as well. Which would have almost zero impact on the gameplay. I think the trivialization of the engineers is mainly due to the fact that mini-games are largely rejected by the community. So FDev doesn't even bother.

The original system had diversity.

If you recall, what happened then was toys being ejected into orbit from mainly PVP-focused players, on the basis that they felt they needed to do hundreds of rolls to exactly match the maximised gear that someone else had rolled.

Then they changed it to what we have today.

 

[Madrax573]

The original system had diversity.

If you recall, what happened then was toys being ejected into orbit from mainly PVP-focused players, on the basis that they felt they needed to do hundreds of rolls to exactly match the maximised gear that someone else had rolled.

Then they changed it to what we have today.

Yup,

Unique RNG items/modules get thrown straight out when you take them to competitive PvP fields... EVERYONE simply wants the BEST of everything...

 

[metatheurgist]

It wasn't the uniqueness of the original system that was the issue. It was the Jackpot Lottery that meant some were the 1% and the rest were not. They really needed a system that resulted in not much variation.

 

[Madrax573]

It wasn't the uniqueness of the original system that was the issue. It was the Jackpot Lottery that meant some were the 1% and the rest were not. They really needed a system that resulted in not much variation.

It wasn't the RNG or jackpot lottery at all. It is simply the desire to have it 'maxed' to feel competitive for the PvP'ers and some sense of entitlement among the PvE'ers (they got a max roll in 5 goes yet it took me 15!!!! I wants it easy!!!) that really caused the issues...

I personally would have preferred a slider system where you pick attributes and potential trade off's based on the values you'd pick... There will always be min/maxers but this way you would choose what you are getting etc...

The current system is way better with much more controlled and defined bonus' with known requirements and downsides. There is only a slight variation on RNG nowadays compared to the previous system.

 

[Captain Willard]

The variations seem normal enough to me as in real life.
I had the wife's car dyno'd by two different people. The second one got stronger pulls at low rpm's slightly less at mid and a higher top HP and I'm only talking about 8 hp.
No two engines are going to be exact matches. Same as engineers.
This system works for me just fine.

 

[F4fred]

I still remember Mortal Online (a horrible game, but it's some years ago, might have been improved by now). But what it did very well is crafting: a system that allows the creation of truly unique items. But even skyrim has a better crafting system, so Engineers are certainly not one of EDs highlights - if you take them as ED's interpretation of 'crafting' (which is a bit of a stretch, in reality it's actually tuning of course).

I don’t see the current system as a problem. You are right in ED now you choose your base model specifying the various options then take it to a tuning shop to tweak the performance. What does surprise me is that the Guardian stuff is just another set of tweaked modules and weapons. That would have been an opportunity to have some unique artifacts in the game.

 

[metatheurgist]

It wasn't the RNG or jackpot lottery at all. It is simply the desire to have it 'maxed' to feel competitive for the PvP'ers and some sense of entitlement among the PvE'ers (they got a max roll in 5 goes yet it took me 15!!!! I wants it easy!!!) that really caused the issues...

If it was 15 there would have been a lot less complaints (I don't doubt there would still be complaints). I know of someone that did 500 roll and didn't come close to matching the roll of another player that they got in one roll. There was no guarantee that another 500 rolls would've made a difference. You can think that's fine but I'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Madrax573]

If it was 15 there would have been a lot complaints (I don't doubt there would still be complaints). I know of someone that did 500 roll and didn't come close to matching the roll of another player that they got in one roll. There was no guarantee that another 500 rolls would've made a difference. You can think that's fine but I'll just agree to disagree.

I didn't say I thought it was fine... I much prefer the new system where the difference in 'rolls' to get max stats is usually within single figure variances.

The issue as I see it was not the system per se but that people who are competitive (in whatever variety) want to max out their stuff compared to others... then when they don't get it at the same rates due to RNG it leads to complaints etc...
It wouldn't make any difference if the RNG aspects were restricted to smaller variances or more variances people are people and want the best stuffs.
I may not be explaining it fully...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I was wandering about that. It always seemed the last few minuscule % needs more full rolls than they should. I tried to push to 100% in the beginning then realized the numbers are not that different. If the increase was insignificant I just stop there now usually it is at ~98-99%. Thank you for confirming it.

Yeah, there's very rarely any point maxing out a G5 unless you have a lot of spare materials. Something else to remember is that - unless you are doing something which needs massive optimisation - Grade 4 is massively cheaper in terms of materials than Grade 5 and still really good.

A maxed overcharged Grade 4 multicannon does 20.2 DPS. Maxed at G5 it does 21.4 DPS. Is it really worth about 10 Modified Embedded Firmware, Conductive Polymers, and Zirconium for that extra 6% damage on one weapon? (Or about ~1% extra total DPS across your entire ship?)

A 7A shield generator on an Anaconda gives you 595 MJ. With reinforced G4, this goes up to 785 MJ, or to 821 MJ at G5. Is it worth 10 Improvised Components for 5% extra shields?

On a mid-weight Python, Grade 4 Dirty Drives (+drag experimental) gives 364m/s cruise and 474m/s boost. Going up to Grade 5 gets you 381 cruise and 496 boost - again, less than 5% extra speed, at the cost of 10 or more Pharmaceutical Isolators.

For PvP combat, or racing, or trying to explore the furthest reaches of the galaxy ... yes, that extra 5% can be worth it. For just wandering around trading, mining, and doing a bit of light PvE combat ... it's probably largely unnoticeable in practice. Lots of people would find engineers far less grindy if they looked at what engineering they actually needed first, rather than just going "must have best".

 

[Kekkonshiki]

The fixed result you desire is a fully Grade 5 engineered module.

Everything prior to that is based on (in no particular order): how much caffeine the RNGineer has had, the humidity level in the RNGineer shop, how many mats are in your inventory for the RNGineering being applied, is there a cat involved, and if it's T.J.'s fault or not. /s

Exactly.

When I engineer something I always do it to Grade 5 (except Life Support - I'm not going to Colonia to get THAT G5) so I always make sure I have enough mats to roll for each grade i.e.:

G1 = 2 rolls
G2 = 4 rolls
G3 = 6 rolls
G4 = 8 rolls
G5 = 10 rolls

This way each module I engineer is guaranteed to be 100% G5.