Right now the security level of the system means nothing - and can be safely ignored by just about every player, even if you are wanted. It's a waste of a game mechanic. How about making high security systems a true "safe-haven" for players that desire it? High Security should mean something. High security systems should have police patrolling near the star and ports in supercruise. If you have notoriety and jump into a high security system, you should be scanned and chased almost immediately, with the rank of the chasers being proportional to your notoriety. So if you're a murder-hobo ganker, you should be constantly chased by ATR or some other Elite ranked wing of police. If you kill them, they should send double the number of ships in a second wave. Of course, this only applies in High Security systems. In medium, low, or anarchy, the chances should remain low or non-existent.
Notoriety should come with more consequences in high security systems
- Thread starter Nickolai
- Start date
This is a double egged sword (haha, my phones autocorrect, I'm keeping that epic typo, 2 eggs, no less!)... There are players who want to play bad guy, and they should be able. And the consequences shouldn't be too harsh as to make the game unfun for them to play. It's a very fine balance.
This makes sense to me. Have areas of space that are very secure and areas that are not.
ATR are overrated. Put some decent hull into your ship and they're little more than a nuisance. I personally have 2 ships set up for the sole purpose of killing system security so to think they're a deterrent would be wrong. To do this you'd need a massive buff to NPC interdiction abilities, much better engineering that can take out a g5 combat ship in less time than a high wake and far more system security flying about.
Then hope they don't scan you if you're wanted after a planetary scan, or similar.
Then hope they don't scan you if you're wanted after a planetary scan, or similar.
I actually disagree with this. I used to be very proud of my -10 sec status and bounty in EVE, even though it made it impossible for me to travel inside high security space. I was literally locked out on pain of instant death. That was a badge of honor for a pirate. You actually had to live the life you'd chosen.
I equate it to moving out to Colonia. You do it with the understanding that, as some very astute people here have pointed out, it isn't easy to go back on a whim. I personally wouldn't have a problem if outlaw status was enforced around here. It adds to the choices we make.
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Security has always just been another BGS flavor. Permit locks is the mechanism of choice FDev deployed to set specific zones in their universe.
People want to play bad guy without the bad guy consequences. I agree as a game there should be a path back, but it shouldn't be pop over to the next system and pay an IF. The real balance is allowing people that made genuine mistakes to get back quickly, which is hard in a world that issues the death penalty for loitering.
While Notoriety is gained by killing NPCs, i can only get behind this if such a change was coupled with commensurate rewards.
Notoriety should mean something not just to NPC secuirty responses, but to the criminal underworld as well.
Criminal activiry is an entirely legitimate method for playing the game and is, frankly, one of the most neglected. The fact smuggling remaims entirely broken, and there are still no sane ways to cause negative states are evidence of this.
I'm all for making criminal activity more dangerous, but it must be paired with more rewarding outcomes. Right now, it (and hostile rep) is dead-end gameplay.
Notoriety should mean something not just to NPC secuirty responses, but to the criminal underworld as well.
- A dedicated criminal mission board should exist, accessible only to pilots with notoriety
- higher notoriety = higher payout & more difficult missions
- ability to purchase illegl goods off the black market when over a certain notoriety
- notoriety should allow you to collect "criminal" bounties from killing NPCs security vessels
- "Criminal" tech brokers accessible only to those with notoriety higher than a certain level
- "criminal" engineers, available only to those with the highest levels of notoriety.
Criminal activiry is an entirely legitimate method for playing the game and is, frankly, one of the most neglected. The fact smuggling remaims entirely broken, and there are still no sane ways to cause negative states are evidence of this.
I'm all for making criminal activity more dangerous, but it must be paired with more rewarding outcomes. Right now, it (and hostile rep) is dead-end gameplay.
Deleted member 38366
D
You can't have a Galaxy that makes any sense, if it
- permits relentless crimes ( for {reasons} ) even in permit-locked HighSec Systems
- protects the tiny Gameplay niche of bad guys
- by presenting a massive illogical imbalance exclusively favoring that Gameplay and punishing legal traffic (wrong place, wrong time)
- as a consequence favors, encourages and protects mindless Ganking
There are Players who want to play {everything else than bad guy} as well - and those are the overwhelming majority. The consequences shouldn't be too harsh on >them< IMHO as to make the game unfun for them to play.
Unfortunately, that's not the case.
If bad guys want to play bad guys, the bulk of it should be limited to Anarchy and LowSec Systems by design.
However, a Notoriety 10 guy can happily hug SuperCruise with local Authority not even caring. That's the equivalent of driving into a large, heavily protected Military base and starting to shoot around - and basically nothing happening for as long as you leave the building in time (leave the Instance) - then you keep strolling around its areas, looking for the next building to start messing around with.
The fine balance doesn't exist in ELITE, never has.
It urgently needs something like it but it's exceedingly unlikely to ever come.
That's all problems with the current system though, and it's really not that hard to fix. Plenty of games already do this... the basic model is:I can hear Sandro Sammarco's voice saying "that's certainly desirable".
I believe there's a reason for why we don't have a decent crime system. There's a high risk to create all sorts of exploits. Just look at the low bounty limit for player bounties. Your first 2 points for instance will turn in no time into a sport for the top shots and something that everyone wants to brag about. Very difficult to do right, as it would require a really fine tuned balance - something that FD is light years away from. With FD's history to already struggle with the more mundane stuff, I'm not sure I really would want to ask for that and I doubt they have the balls for attempting it. I see no signs at least that could possibly prove me wrong.
- Lawful PvE Activities = Low-med Risk, Low-med Reward
- Unawful PvE Activities = Med-high Risk, Med-High Reward
- PvP activities = User defined risk/reward.[1]
Like I said in my post, I want bigger risk for criminal activities, set against bigger reward. The fact I can get -100% hostile rep with Federation and still dock at their stations is completely ridiculous. But if FD said "OK, being -100% hostile to a superpower denies you access to all their stations" without increasing the incentive to continue aggressive actions towards the Federation... I'd just manage my rep to stay above that threshold, and avoid having any feds hunting me down.
But if being -100% gave me access to more ability to hurt the empire and access to alternate rewards, at the expense of never being able to dock in a Federal station and being hunted constantly in any federal-owned system, you'd see me diving right into that situation.
Is anyone asking for "relentless crimes" in high sec though? I already said that I want more risk for criminal activity in high security, but it must be coupled with higher rewards. If rewards aren't coupled with the punishment system, bad guys just game it, and good guys suffer for it.
My want of the C&P is to allow for nuanced, thought-through criminal activities that have lasting, negative consequences for those that just carelessly "murderhobo for teh lulz"... but substantial rewards for those who consider, plan, stick to the gameplan and don't cause more trouble than necessary to achieve the goal. Wetwork missions are a great basic example of this. You need to hit one target, but there's usually 10 escorts. It's trivial to take out all the escorts then the target, but you walk away with massive bounties and notoriety. By sticking to the gameplan and only hitting the target and leaving the escorts, which is much harder, you walk away with less bounties and no notoriety. Which is good for the current system, not one where you reward notoriety though.
An anti-example of this is the current system and "friendly fire"; the consequences of firing on a clean target have way more impact on a lawful character, while "unlawful" characters know what they're getting into and already have a plan to mitigate it. Most "lawful" players don't understand how to do this, and suffer the most from it. That's going to be the case for any system which seeks to punish bad guys and protect good guys; Either criminals and good guys get punished equally for the same transgressions, or they're equally unpunished, either way, the "good guy" suffers.
What's needed is a system that lets "accidental" criminals easily resolve their criminal status, and career criminals want to stay wanted/with notoriety; that want to stay wanted/notorious is only possible with a commensurate reward. Otherwise, the bad guys just become skilled at gaming the system, and the good guys suffer more for their lack of competence.
Take the "Hostile" rep state; meant to punish "Ongoing antagonism" to a faction. Instead of sticking with that reputation and any consequences (current or not) that might come with it, people just game the system to stay "unfriendly" and never experience the consequences.
Additionally, Notoriety needs to be per superpower... it makes no sense for me to have Notoriety 10 as a result of being the scourge of the Federation... but sneeze in an Imperial holding? Suddenly they're going to hold me account for all my sins in.... the Federation? What?
Again, going back to the commensurate rewards... if Notoriety was per-superpower, and Notoriety 10 meant I would be jumped on by ATR as soon as I arrive in system, but attempts to destroy those ATR could benefit my support of the empire, or a criminal activity, then you'd see me jumping headlong into that as a PvE "bad guy", but a PvP "bad guy" isn't going to get much fun out of being constantly ganked by ATR, when all they want to do is hammer noobs.
It makes no sense for criminal activity (which includes smuggling and political assassinations) to be limited to Anarchy/Low Sec systems. Drug dealers don't sell drugs to other drug dealers, they sell them to cashed-up "civilians". Where are the cashed-up civilians? High Security. What's a high-paying hit for a criminal organisation? The billionare CEO living in a luxurious apartment in Sol who double-crossed the last guy he asked to do a hit, not Junkie Steve in the backwater of nowhere.
Activities in low/anarchy need to be high-risk, high reward for Lawful characters, who can seek refuge in Medium/High security. Killing Pirate Lords, raiding contraband factories, rescuing hostages, because the law won't show up to protect you.
Conversely, activities in medium/high sec need to be high-risk, high-reward for Unlawful characters, where the law will be quick to jump on them for their transgressions, smuggling contraband, assassinating high-profile civilians and raiding shipping lines..but they can flee to the safety of low/anarchy where the law won't follow.
Again, this is exactly the same problem with the parallel condition of Hostile rep state; in the current implementation there's no point being Hostile; it's far easier to rip the insides of a faction out by being Allied to them for low/no risk, high reward. It's completely back to front.
[1] Realise I didn't explain this... PvP is "user defined" because the basic construct of a game is, kill a minion, get a rusty axe, kill a big bad, get a holy avenger. Conversely, kill a low-threat NPC pirate, get a couple thousand credits. Kill a pirate lord, get a couple hundred thousand. My argument is then kill an NPC cop, get a bounty on your head, and a minor reward from a criminal entity. Kill a wing of ATR, get a major bounty and a major reward.
But for PvP... the penalty for killing a player is going to be the same, regardless. Maybe they could scale it based on local system reputation where you die, but where a PvE criminal career increases with rewards, the only game-assigned effect for PvP is a penalty; the reward is dependant on whatever character you hit, and if you're seal-clubbing, that punishment should far outweigh any reward from that activity... whereas PvE will compensate that.
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I suggested these ideas which you might like:
forums.frontier.co.uk
forums.frontier.co.uk
forums.frontier.co.uk
forums.frontier.co.uk
At notoriety 10, each full NPC / player scan spawns an ATR vessel
A half though out idea, but: If a player is at notoriety 10, they have to be very careful about being scanned by random ships, security or other players as if they are, an ATR security vessel drops in to hassle them. The handwavium being that a scan is like a sighting of you thats disseminated...
Helping new players: scaled, personal NPC security detail at lower ranks in Open (mostly harmless > competent)
After a couple of interesting discussions I came up with this idea to help new players fresh out of the starter area: In short, low ranks on attack by other players (i.e. shots landed, interdicted) spawn security instantly when they drop to realspace 1: This idea kicks in as new players leave...
Some C + P suggestions, tweaks and ideas (part 2)
Some ideas: Security response times are based on the attack position in that system. So, security response in close proximity to stations, traffic corridors etc are much quicker (and practically instantaneous in high sec close to traffic lanes) than in deep space. This logically simulates how...
Revert no fire zone / drop distances to stations to pre gamma(?) distances and other C + P tweaks
Currently its far too easy to never see an NPC opponent from missions. Commanders drop far too close to stations and enter the no fire zone (NFZ) almost instantly, making any NPC bounty hunter or pirate instantly fly off (making them redundant). A distance like 20Km (or perhaps shrink the NFZ...
Don't put all edges in one basket, or however the saying is...
On the topic at hand, i agree with what others already said: you choose to be a criminal, you should also get a criminals life. There are anarchy systems out there for a reason. If you rack up notoriety, they might be your home, while you only enter high security systems to steal something, then quickly get out of it again.
I see nothing wrong about that. Also, while some of the things Rubber says are a bit "wild" for my taste, i very much support his general idea on the topic. Choosing a criminal career in game has to be viable, but it also should feel like you picked a criminals career.
At the moment it feels more like "any other career, just with a little bit of additional waiting time here and there". Currently it's not so much the "wild crime in space" experience but feels more like "waiting for service at a public office".
Don't put all edges in one basket, or however the saying is...
On the topic at hand, i agree with what others already said: you choose to be a criminal, you should also get a criminals life. There are anarchy systems out there for a reason. If you rack up notoriety, they might be your home, while you only enter high security systems to steal something, then quickly get out of it again.
I see nothing wrong about that. Also, while some of the things Rubber says are a bit "wild" for my taste, i very much support his general idea on the topic. Choosing a criminal career in game has to be viable, but it also should feel like you picked a criminals career.
At the moment it feels more like "any other career, just with a little bit of additional waiting time here and there". Currently it's not so much the "wild crime in space" experience but feels more like "waiting for service at a public office".
What I want to see is a doubling really- for playing a doubly dangerous career you should see x 2 the danger for x 2 the rewards and x 2 the fall. For example, I like using murder in the BGS, however its been nerfed to death twice because it was considered OP. Now, what I'd like to see is that actually be the absolute best way to tank someones PMF but at the same time make the consequences of repeat killings fit to the effect...in essence make being violent viable but you face immense odds that only increase the more you do it and when you slip up, you really feel it.
Don't put all edges in one basket, or however the saying is...
On the topic at hand, i agree with what others already said: you choose to be a criminal, you should also get a criminals life. There are anarchy systems out there for a reason. If you rack up notoriety, they might be your home, while you only enter high security systems to steal something, then quickly get out of it again.
I see nothing wrong about that. Also, while some of the things Rubber says are a bit "wild" for my taste, i very much support his general idea on the topic. Choosing a criminal career in game has to be viable, but it also should feel like you picked a criminals career.
At the moment it feels more like "any other career, just with a little bit of additional waiting time here and there". Currently it's not so much the "wild crime in space" experience but feels more like "waiting for service at a public office".
totally agree,
I would like to see the options to be an outlaw and in anarchy systems find cool mission like go and kill this person in this high security system.... and the real problem is not to actually kill the target, it is to get to the target and then escape safely when this VIP person sounds the alarm on the attack, so the enhanced security response can be scrambled to and arrive really fast.... and this ontop of the VIP's already present personal security force...
and this would also create some new opportunities for the law abiding players, to make deliveries to anarchy system... so this is not mission you take on your shieldless cargo hauler... as most likely will mean you get to blown to pieces...
So if you want to play law abiding, and reduce the game play risks, take mission in high sec systems to other high sec systems... and plot your course through high sec systems... (new plot option), or take a chanse for faster travel, by allowing in increasing order of potential danger: medium, low sec or even anarchy in the plot...
Or you can take mission to more dangerous places, so high sec to
to medium - more pay
to low - even more pay
to anarchy - highest pay
so a change that would affect this could be expanded to also benefit law abiding players aswell... and it is very much up to the player to choose what risk they want to accept... giving both sides some options to control what risk they are most likely to encounter....
and as I see it, in many cases this would simply use existing things we already have in the game but are not currently being used very much (security rating).
Ozric
Volunteer Moderator
One thing I've always thought is that if you have a notoriety of a certain level then you should have docking privileges restricted in certain areas.
So something along the lines of:
Notoriety level 2: Means you can't dock at stations belonging to any faction you have a bounty with.
Notoriety level 5: Means you can't dock at stations belonging to a super power affiliated with any faction you have a bounty with.
Notoriety level 10: Means you cannot dock at any stations outside of Anarchy systems.
It makes no sense to me that a station knows the call sign of your ship and is happy for you to dock with them when you have a list of bounties a mile long against their faction.
So something along the lines of:
Notoriety level 2: Means you can't dock at stations belonging to any faction you have a bounty with.
Notoriety level 5: Means you can't dock at stations belonging to a super power affiliated with any faction you have a bounty with.
Notoriety level 10: Means you cannot dock at any stations outside of Anarchy systems.
It makes no sense to me that a station knows the call sign of your ship and is happy for you to dock with them when you have a list of bounties a mile long against their faction.
Fwiw... this is already in game
Galaxy Map - Filter - security level - select preferences, then check "apply filter to route"
To me one of the problems is those who want both worlds. They want to play the big bad criminal mastermind, the scourge of space, the name that makes mere mortals quake in terror - until things get a little hot for them. Then they want to swap ships and suddenly be Mr Goody Two Shoes, who just wants to do some peaceful mining or a bit of cargo hauling or maybe a bit of exploration. Oh why is everyone so mean to them ...
GROW SOME GONADS - If you want to be a criminal be one - all the time. You want the thrill of being wanted, then you should experience that thrill every time you log in. Yes to the above suggestion that criminals should have their own career path with better rewards and a long, slow way of redeeming themselves. But they should also be shunning by the law abiding inhabitants. Even the thought of dropping into a High Sec system should make your bowels loosen, likewise for a clean skin the thought of entering an Anarchy system should make them break into a cold sweat.
GROW SOME GONADS - If you want to be a criminal be one - all the time. You want the thrill of being wanted, then you should experience that thrill every time you log in. Yes to the above suggestion that criminals should have their own career path with better rewards and a long, slow way of redeeming themselves. But they should also be shunning by the law abiding inhabitants. Even the thought of dropping into a High Sec system should make your bowels loosen, likewise for a clean skin the thought of entering an Anarchy system should make them break into a cold sweat.
soooooort of. I totally get what you're saying, but while I will preach "Learn to control your fire and keep battlefield situational awareness.", I also do get that accidents genuinely happen sometimes. The biggest issue is there's no functional difference between a commander with a multi-billion credit bounty, and a commander who simply did some friendly fire once, or who ran a single Installation Scan mission. The effect of being wanted in either case is identical.
Of course, it's easy to say "OK, let's scale it... the higher your bounty, the more problems you face". And that comes back to the other problem that I discussed earlier; in such a system, the "bad guys" will be very skilled in mitigating and resolving that before it becomes a problem, through the same mechanism "good guys" could do, but won't be able to as effectively because they avoid that game space.
So you have two options, excluding the idea of having a path of rewards for heightened criminal activity:
- Do nothing. Good guys can shake their small pile of crimes, and so can bad guys, through exactly the same mechanisms, and the bad guys are never truly punished; or
- Make it so that a "bad guy" is caught up the instance they commit a crime. This also catches good guys, and their game will suffer for it.
A way the game already does this in a very minor way is through fines for stealing mission cargo. Almost all my hauling ships have a few million in fines on them from various factions. Why? Because when I see a neutral faction who owns no assets offering a mission to ship 180t of Palladium, I take it, take the cargo, abandon the mission and dump it on the nearest black market (preferably, owned by a faction I want to hurt). Why? Because it's a free 2m credits and damage to a faction of my choosing. Of course, I get a =~ 2-3m fine, but you can't be killed for a fine, and unless I'm interacting with any of their facilities (which, at this point, is zero) there's no interference with my gameplay. I could "stay clean" and pay the fine, but I'd lose more than the money I made, so of course, I never pay the fine. But it always hangs over my head.
Fines keep on accruing then, but if I'm ever killed and respawn at a place that faction is present or in a detention facility... schlorp... all that "instant money" I accrued through that mechanism gets sucked back out of whatever I'm holding.
That's a core mechanic of a crime system for any game; commensurate rewards need to happen, but each one is like adding another block on a Jenga tower. It gets more and more unstable until that one time when you're careless, you topple the tower.... not to just tell someone "No more playing Jenga!"
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To me notoriety is the potential to do crime, not be an automatic you are guilty! label (which being wanted is).
The problem in the game is that its really easy to dodge notoriety and be a criminal without having billion credit bounties. For example if you shoot someone but don't kill them, that assault counts as 1/4 of a murder bounty, but does not accrue any notoriety at all. I've suggested repeatedly that notoriety needs to be applied more widely as its an easily chesseable system.
The problem in the game is that its really easy to dodge notoriety and be a criminal without having billion credit bounties. For example if you shoot someone but don't kill them, that assault counts as 1/4 of a murder bounty, but does not accrue any notoriety at all. I've suggested repeatedly that notoriety needs to be applied more widely as its an easily chesseable system.