FSS - my opinion

[[VR] optimal_909]

After more than year, I reinstalled Elite and started moving back to the bubble from the core area.

Initially, I was happy with the feature, however, being away for a year and just another gimmick, I found it a failed feature - away from cockpit, repetitive gameplay, that actually hinders me from finding interesting stuff.
For example, by standard honking I found giant ice worlds, rocky moons with rings in close orbit, interesting color combos or even unusually jagged terrain - now all these things never show up on the scanner and remain unnoticed... because no way I will go through every system, and definitely not all objects. Back in the day, I used to honk and check M-star systems too.

Sure, the ability to find POIs on the surface is a huge advantage, but to me that doesn't offset the disadvantages.

 

[okisoldave]

Forgive me, but are you referring to the Full System Scanner (FSS, i.e. the "honking") or the Detailed Surface Scanner (DSS)?

Apologies - I'm not sure how the FSS was set up in the past so it may just be my understanding

 

[Ozric]

The disadvantage is that you have to do a bit of work, rather than having everything presented to you by holding a button for 5 seconds?

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Forgive me, but are you referring to the Full System Scanner (FSS, i.e. the "honking") or the Detailed Surface Scanner (DSS)?

Apologies - I'm not sure how the FSS was set up in the past so it may just be my understanding

I refer to the honking.

The disadvantage is that you have to do a bit of work, rather than having everything presented to you by holding a button for 5 seconds?

Well, as you put it, it does feel like work.
My issue is that given the sheer size of the galaxy and the number of ordinary systems/objects vs. interesting stuff is very-very high. You have to invest a lot of time into scanning ordinary systems - at zero gameplay value.
The situation were completely different if the systems were more fleshed out, even mundane planets would be interesting to travel to (and actually I did in the old days, landed on remote ice world of M-class stars, and the dim lighting gave them an interesting ambiance).

By the way, it took time to learn the old way of exploring, spotting oddities like eccentric orbits and stuff like that. It wasn't the honk, rather than making sense of the system map that was both faster and more interesting to me.

 

[MattG]

Shhhh! I don't think you're allowed to not like the FSS! You'll awaken the fanatics!

(Obviously, I jest, before anyone interjects)


I agree, not a fan at all. Still don't understand why there couldn't have been some sort of compromise, but we are where we are. Learn to tolerate, or find something else to play, it's not going anywhere
One good thing about it - I'm currently busy surveying an entire d-mass sector, some ~2000 systems, and collecting data on all the bodies in each system. I doubt I'd have bothered scanning everything pre-FSS days.

 

[Ozric]

Well, as you put it, it does feel like work.
My issue is that given the sheer size of the galaxy and the number of ordinary systems/objects vs. interesting stuff is very-very high. You have to invest a lot of time into scanning ordinary systems - at zero gameplay value.
The situation were completely different if the systems were more fleshed out, even mundane planets would be interesting to travel to (and actually I did in the old days, landed on remote ice world of M-class stars, and the dim lighting gave them an interesting ambiance).

By the way, it took time to learn the old way of exploring, spotting oddities like eccentric orbits and stuff like that. It wasn't the honk, rather than making sense of the system map that was both faster and more interesting to me.

I don't really think that the new system takes that much longer at all, I find it very quick to scan through if you're not looking for any real details and not that much longer if you want to have a look at the planet's details, such as orbital eccentricity. Though obviously if you encounter the bug where none of the details show up then it can take a bit longer.

I can't remember fully to be honest, but did the old ADS tell you the orbital eccentricity of a planet before going in for a DSS? I thought those details weren't revealed until after a scan.

I will say I'm not going to get drawn into a conversation about 'gameplay value' as that really is entirely subjective. I think that there is more gameplay in using the FSS than honking, opening the system map to look at the planet types, then going on your way.
The only slight shame is that I don't listen to the planets as much as I used to

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I don't really think that the new system takes that much longer at all, I find it very quick to scan through if you're not looking for any real details and not that much longer if you want to have a look at the planet's details, such as orbital eccentricity. Though obviously if you encounter the bug where none of the details show up then it can take a bit longer.

I can't remember fully to be honest, but did the old ADS tell you the orbital eccentricity of a planet before going in for a DSS? I thought those details weren't revealed until after a scan.

I will say I'm not going to get drawn into a conversation about 'gameplay value' as that really is entirely subjective. I think that there is more gameplay in using the FSS than honking, opening the system map to look at the planet types, then going on your way.
The only slight shame is that I don't listen to the planets as much as I used to

Well, giant ice worlds were often found in eccentric orbit at the very least (I could be wrong that it was displayed right after honk).

Okay, let's sideline the gameplay value. The issue is the disparity of invested time vs. the frequency of interesting stuff. We had a simple system to check through very simple systems most of the time, quick way to find odd stuff - now we have to do more to check through the same simple, repetitive content.
Though I admit, the ease of finding geological things is neat.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I'm not sure how it works, since I haven't tried it but a simple map reveal of available bodies is something I expect as baseline to work from as initial scan source.

 

[marx]

I'm not sure how it works, since I haven't tried it but a simple map reveal of available bodies is something I expect as baseline to work from as initial scan source.

Instead, with the initial honk, all you get is the FSS displaying a barcode (with squiggly lines) showing what body types are present in the system. The system map (and orrery) will be empty, except for bodies that other Commanders have already discovered and sold the data of.

The disadvantage is that you have to do a bit of work, rather than having everything presented to you by holding a button for 5 seconds?

Not everything. In fact, you'll find that the FSS gives you many more information on bodies for less effort. However, it made finding the most rare and unusual - and thus, for many, the most interesting - things harder. For example, with the FSS there's no visuals, no system hierarchy. In particular, finding new, undiscovered GGGs got shot in the foot.

The FSS is a tool designed for data logging. It boils down to a two-dimensional lockpicking minigame, designed to give at least some gameplay for body discovery. The ADS was a placeholder, and at launch, body discovery was the only exploration mechanic. So, the ADS was a placeholder, and the FSS in the long run is quite bad (good luck finding anyone who explores more than the average and still likes the FSS good luck finding many people who explore more than the average and still like the FSS gameplay), and Frontier could do better than both. Body logging shouldn't be where the main focus of exploration is, but well, as Matt said, we are where we are.
On the bright side, the people who were invested in pretending that everything's fine with the FSS no longer work on Elite, so there is a better chance that exploration gameplay will be revisited in the New Era. (Not a big chance, mind you, but still better than nothing.)

And on the other hand, for logging bodies, the FSS's god-scanner is a better tool than the ADS's "fly to target and point your ship at it" was. I do like that stars are auto-scanned and that people scan many more bodies on average now, it has been helpful for analyzing the crowdsourced data - but that's not an intended game mechanic and not one that many play, is it.


The DSS is another cookie altogether, where we got an even more repetitive minigame which made finding surface signals go from too difficult to non-existent. That ought to be revisited as well, but even a simple change of implementing the already existing search zone mechanic for them would make for a nice change.

 

[Winterwalker]

I like it myself. You don't have to travel to every planet to discover, planet stats appear right in front of you, so you can decide if it's a planet you want to inspect more closely and it tends to give a feeling for mass distribution in the system.

 

[Ozric]

So, the ADS was a placeholder, and the FSS in the long run is quite bad (good luck finding anyone who explores more than the average and still likes the FSS)

I do . I think it is better than the previous system.

On the bright side, the people who were invested in pretending that everything's fine with the FSS no longer work on Elite

OK you have me intrigued, who was invested in pretending everything's fine but no longer works on Elite?

so there is a better chance that exploration gameplay will be revisited in the New Era. (Not a big chance, mind you, but still better than nothing.)

And on the other hand, for logging bodies, the FSS's god-scanner is a better tool than the ADS's "fly to target and point your ship at it" was. I do like that stars are auto-scanned and that people scan many more bodies on average now, it has been helpful for analyzing the crowdsourced data - but that's not an intended game mechanic and not one that many play, is it.

I guess any chance is better than nothing, but given that it took 4 years to get any changes to Exploration and we're still left with over 80% of the initial release bugs 15 months later. I really see no chance of that happening. I'd love to be wrong though...

Surely the ADS was a god-scanner anyway? Infinite range on a scan that instantly shows you all of the bodies in a system and how they relate to each other. MB always said his biggest regret about Exploration was giving the ADS infinite range. Now certainly scanning all of those bodies is a hell of a lot easier now, but the initial results were far more "god-mode" with the old system than the new.

Unfortunately what I believe happened is not a new story with Frontier. They decided to add a new system aimed at a group of players, they got cold feet and rather than focusing it purely for those it would most benefit they tried to make it work for everyone. And so what you're left with is a system that doesn't fully please the dedicated or casual explorer.

 

[Rooster Podunk]

I'm ok and not ok with it.

Not ok: Tedium.

Am ok: Slowed down explorers, and by that I mean the Galaxy got smaller and smaller when the GFSDs were introduced.

Disclaimer: I'm a loner and don't mind walking from Seattle to Pensacola.

My biggest issue with the FSS/DSS combo is the poorly designed interface (lack of detailed analysis) and the feeling of pilot blindness as my LSD colored probes paint the sky.

 

[marx]

("good luck finding anyone who explores more than the average and still likes the FSS")
I do . I think it is better than the previous system.

Well, I suppose I should have said "many" instead. But then, I have no idea how much you explore, and if you are CMDR Ozric, then your EDSM profile is set to private, so I can't tell. (Oh, and no offense, but you're a moderator, and moderation has always been in favour of the FSS.) Ask those who did explore quite a lot with the FSS and the DSS, and see the responses you get - although those who only know of it because they started exploring after Beyond Chapter Four generally receive it better. Not a lot of big fans out there who think that it's so good that Frontier couldn't do better.

OK you have me intrigued, who was invested in pretending everything's fine [with the FSS] but no longer works on Elite?

Michael Brookes, who wanted the ADS replaced with anything, and Adam Bourke-Waite, who was responsible for the version of the FSS that was released. Mr. Brookes no longer works on Elite, and Mr. Bourke-Waite has left Frontier entirely.

Surely the ADS was a god-scanner anyway? Infinite range on a scan that instantly shows you all of the bodies in a system and how they relate to each other. MB always said his biggest regret about Exploration was giving the ADS infinite range. Now certainly scanning all of those bodies is a hell of a lot easier now, but the initial results were far more "god-mode" with the old system than the new.

Think about it a bit more. The ADS revealed to you the visuals and hierarchy of the system map, at infinite range. When it comes to actual scans, getting the body information, it didn't scan anything at any range. You had to fly there, point your ship at the object once in a certain range, and then it would be scanned.
Now, the FSS will provide all the data for you and perform scans at infinite range. Plus identify with absolute certainty the types of bodies present, whereas before, you had to learn how to recognize them - and even then, you could make mistakes.
When you are looking to get credits, tags and body data, which one is more of a god-scanner? Rhetorical question, of course: it's the FSS. It was designed to be such.

 

[Ozric]

Well, I suppose I should have said "many" instead. But then, I have no idea how much you explore, and if you are CMDR Ozric, then your EDSM profile is set to private, so I can't tell.

I am indeed he, and I don't keep my logs on EDSM up to date anyway. Erimus listed me as one of the pioneers of Exploration if that helps

(Oh, and no offense, but you're a moderator, and moderation has always been in favour of the FSS.)

Now this is an intriguing comment, but I am worried about digging into it more. Moderation is certainly never biased one way or the other, but certain topics spark more... heated... debate than others and not everyone knows when to step back and take a breath

Michael Brookes, who wanted the ADS replaced with anything, and Adam Bourke-Waite, who was responsible for the version of the FSS that was released. Mr. Brookes no longer works on Elite, and Mr. Bourke-Waite has left Frontier entirely.

Mike left working on Elite long before the FSS was even considered. Adam wasn't entirely responsible for the FSS, and I highly doubt he left because of it (I realise you're not suggesting that). Though it may interest you to know that one of the other people who was responsible for the design of the FSS, no longer works on Elite and that is Mark Allen.

When you are looking to get credits, tags and body data, which one is more of a god-scanner? Rhetorical question, of course: it's the FSS. It was designed to be such.

As I said, trying to please everyone.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

As I said, trying to please everyone.

As Marx also put and I reiterate, the new exploration mechanics threw the baby out of the bathwater for those who have seen many things.

I wish there was at least a hint on the wave scanner at the bottom that indicates some parameters are off (i.e. out of a certain threshold) at one of the planet types and could be worth a look. It wouldn't tell which one, but at least that would give an incentive to check all rocky/icy/whatever bodies within the system.

BTW this is a series of images I made on the very same planet... and with the current system I'll never find another one.

 

[Ozric]

BTW this is a series of images I made on the very same planet... and with the current system I'll never find another one.

I'm certainly not trying to dismiss your gripes. I may be happier with the new system than you, but I think all explorers agree it could be better.
Out of interest though, why couldn't you find another system like that with the new mechanic? Nothing about the planets or systems has changed, and all the same information is there. It's just how you find that information that has changed.

Looks awesome though!

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I'm certainly not trying to dismiss your gripes. I may be happier with the new system than you, but I think all explorers agree it could be better.
Out of interest though, why couldn't you find another system like that with the new mechanic? Nothing about the planets or systems has changed, and all the same information is there. It's just how you find that information that has changed.

Looks awesome though!

As said, this was a pattern with giant ice worlds - whenever I honked, I immediately noted that it is huge, scanned it and checked details incl. orbit.
I was able to spot squashed planets, moons with rings or binary moons (and their orbital period), anything that is unusual at a glance.

Now it would be just an ice world on the wave pattern of which there are tons around, especially around dwarf stars like above. After the initial honk, nothing indicates it could be worth a closer look.

Thanks by the way, I only found two or three with excessively eccentric orbit, I think this is one in the Abyss.

 

[Romeo India Charlie]

Just want to leave a quick note as one of the post-FSS explorers. FSS is a convenient tool but it rewards me for ignoring parts and at times even full systems. I honk, I FSS. Depending on what I find here I go to the system map and orrery. I'm aware that this is a lot more than the majority of players do but that shouldn't really make anyone happy, I think. At this point and with minimal (but repetitive) effort, I know the aesthetics, physics, peculiarities and approximate value of every single body in the system. Not making the effort of visiting certain bodies is a win, not a loss. Skipping the act of exploring has a net positive expected value.

 

[marx]

I am indeed he, and I don't keep my logs on EDSM up to date anyway. Erimus listed me as one of the pioneers of Exploration if that helps

As I mentioned in the later sentences of that paragraph, this isn't about the individual exploration of one person - sorry if that one line brought it in such a direction.
But I'm curious: by the "Erimus listed me as one of the pioneers of Exploration", did you mean the instance where he listed you here for travelling to the Crab nebula in February 3301, or did he post something else I missed?

Now this is an intriguing comment, but I am worried about digging into it more. Moderation is certainly never biased one way or the other, but certain topics spark more... heated... debate than others and not everyone knows when to step back and take a breath

Correction: Moderation is certainly supposed to be never biased one way or the other. However, I'm afraid that me discussing instances of moderation actions past would get me punished under Rule 12, of not discussing moderation actions in public.

Mike left working on Elite long before the FSS was even considered. Adam wasn't entirely responsible for the FSS, and I highly doubt he left because of it (I realise you're not suggesting that). Though it may interest you to know that one of the other people who was responsible for the design of the FSS, no longer works on Elite and that is Mark Allen.

Well, I'm not on a first-name basis with any of the developers, but Mr. Brookes certainly commented about regretting how simple the ADS was, and Mr. Bourke-Waite was in charge of designing it, so he was certainly responsible for signing off on it. Plus he was the one who posted that they are entirely happy with how the FSS is.

As I said, trying to please everyone.

Not quite. Perhaps that was the initial intent, but Frontier had to have realised once the feedback (even before the FSS was out in the beta) came in that it's going to displease a lot of players. Unfortunately, instead of trying to please everyone, they doubled down on what they had and refused to implement even minor changes based on the feedback. Some of them could have gone a long way. They also said that they realise the changes are going to throw some groups of people under the bus, but that's that: well, that's not quite pleasing everyone, is it?


As for finding - and now not finding - some rarities, here's another. Before the FSS:

After the FSS:


Now you can't tell from the barcode that there's something out of the ordinary in there. I was at 55,000 systems discovered at the time IIRC, and to find it now would require me to fully scan every system: doing that many is not something I would wish on anyone.

 

[Northpin]

I like fss better.
I can quickly scan the full system, including bodies that are far from drop point - even millions LS away from drop.
or
I can Honk, than take a quick look at the Spectrum bar - if it shows signals for bodies that i'm interested in, i can decide if i will FSS the entire system or i jump away.

It gives more choices and i find it more rewarding.
It is also good for HGE or mission USS

The only times i find it annoying is in Thargoid infested systems where there are literally hundreds of NHSS