What don't you have to do? To properly explore a system you have to find everything in it in the FSS, once done that you then have to fly to the planets that you want to. A 5 second press doesn't tell you much.
FSS - my opinion
- Thread starter [VR] optimal_909
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I hardly notice the minigame as I'm far to interested in looking at what I'm discovering.
They still have the chance to add something (non-ADS like) in to take some of the busywork out of the FSS.
The reason we are "at each others throat" is simply that some seem to want a non-mechanic back because they don't care about the instrumental process of exploration. Same argument could be used elsewhere but ticking off a much larger player-base: Maybe some don't care about the flying the ship part, so would like a point-and-click interface that took care of going places and even of fighting. Maybe a system where you can set a tactics style and walk away while the guns are doing their work. They could probably add instant travel as well, so we don't have to wait. Because who actually cares about the size of the galaxy and the star systems?
Nobody wants to deny anyone enjoyment, but all will have to adapt to changes. Some just really don't want to, and they keep complaining they have to even years after the changes were implemented. Meanwhile, the rest of us moved on and adapted to the new, imperfect tools.
It could be that FD would revert to the non-mechanics of the past, which would be very sad indeed. But they did so with exploration once already, when the reintroduced the wait-for-scan-to-finish for the volcanic PoIs. For a little while during the beta, we had a glorious system with actual uncertainty in exploration. It could be fleshed out more and have player-activities that could reduce the uncertainty. Instead they let the old mechanics back in, effectively rendering the new mechanic pointless.
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Oh well, I'm sorry to hear that. But if you're going to ignore me, maybe replying to me isn't the best way to go about it.
I have made a case for a non interactive ADS and an FSS whose functionalities can complement each other. You're free to ignore whatever you like, but try harder next time
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No Sysmon. It's post like this laying the blame on 'the other side' that is the reason why we are at each other's throat. It's telling other explorers they don't care about the instrumental process of exploration.
Both are judging, both are mistaken. You are as much an explorer as I am. I am as much an explorer as you are. You do not care more about the instrumental process of exploration than players who rely on the ADS in their gameplay.
Really? Then why am I among the ones trying to come up with ways to improve on either tool? That feels very one sided, when you and others essentially argue to roll a game-mechanic back to a sadder, emptier time.
Recall also that the galaxy was still new and glorious when we only had the basic to advanced discovery scanners. That glow may have faded a bit.
SYou can be divisive and opt for improvements of tools. These aren't mutually exclusive.
But you asked: really? Ok, lets find out.
I, Ziggy Stardust, am very interested in the process of exploration. There's 2+ years and 50.000 systems that will back that up. Now you are telling me, the reason these threads devolve into divisiveness is that I want a mechanism back because I don't care about the process of exploration.
Can you put yourself in my shoes and imagine I might get a little defensive after being told my motivators are I'm not interested in the process of exploration? Can you see how this is detrimental to having a reasonable discussion?
A little further you're making another judgement call. You are the shiny happy people who are able to adapt to changes, and those who don't enjoy the current method, just don't want to adapt. Meanwhile just before the update I parked myself 12 KLY away from the Bubble, precisely because I wanted to make myself adjust. To find ways to incorporate the new mechanics into my gameplay loops. I tried every evening for 2 weeks. I desperately wanted to get my exploration fix again.
Lastly, I am not arguing to a roll back to a sadder, emptier time. I want to make use of the new tools. I am not opposed to the FSS. I am opposed to the frequency I have to use it. Now you might feel your propositions are an improvement to exploration, and they might be to you. They aren't to me. And that's not because I'm less interested in exploration than you are. It's because we enjoy our own methods.
So please, lets stop with characterizations towards the so-called other side. There are no 2 sides. There's thousands of types of explorers. You cannot pigeon hole them into 2 easily identifiable groups.
Sysmon do you understand why people liked that 'non-mechanic' ?
Folk who liked the ADS cared as much as you do about the process of exploration, they were just going about it a different way looking for different things to you.
That is the them and us mentality.
And who are you to say what the instrumental process of exploration is?
I never liked the original ADS from the moment it was introduced and said as much to Michael Brooks. I really like the FSS, I am a fan.
However, I never truly understood what people liked about the ADS until it was about to be removed and the I engaged in the discussions.
I totally get what was removed from them now and I feel sad that FD went about it the way they did because they didn't have to wholesale remove the ADS function and cut off that explorer playbase.
Adding something back would not be a detriment to my FSS gameplay in any way. You disagree with that but this FSS lover would side with the ADS (like) returners.
(Wasn't a hollow body scan accidently added at one point ?)
And I, as CMDR Teller Bascule, am also very interested in the process of exploration. But in the process I am not accusing you of not being interested in the process of exploration. It seems to be an issue of how much we care of the instrumental process of exploration. That's where there seem to be two groups.
We probably even agree when, push come to shove, on the shortcomings of the FSS and the ADS. It may just be that each tool speaks to us differently. I don't like the FSS in it's current form, but I can make it do what I want and it allows my exploration to be flexible depending on what I'm up to. I just wish I didn't have to use it as much, that it is the only way to get the majority of data, and I wish that it wasn't pancake flat in VR. I dislike the system map because of the pancakeness of it, but I have less trouble navigating it as I use a mouse left-handed so I can park it by the throttle and use it for navigating screens outside the cockpit. And I disliked the old discovery scanner mechanics because they forced us to fly around to find out stuff we really should be able to sense remotely, as well as gave us data instantly that we really should be spending some time getting (orbital configurations in particular).
And please explain then how my suggestions might not work? I find that a bit funny hearing that from people that want to spend time flying around star systems rather spending the time in the FSS, when I basically propose a system that would give the CMDRs the opportunity to get orbital data by flying around and that way taking some time away from the FSS use. The durations I propose might be no more than what it takes to get the ship up over 1C to get the rough picture, with some more time and more focussed flying to tease out more tricky configurations.
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Never suggested that I use it perfectly, but I certainly didn't find it a challenge to use efficiently.
I was able to spot the traditional valuable bodies (ELW, WW, AW) with ease from the spectrum, and I generally found that it took me <10 seconds per body to scan a system. I wasn't interested in discovering the existence of POI's, so didn't wait for them to resolve. On the odd occasion that there was a body off the orbital plane it generally took me less than a minute to locate and scan it.
Honestly, I don't find the mechanic anything like compelling enough to 'practice' in order to get better, and I quit exploration and have used it perhaps three times in the bubble.
Can't see why an optional way of looking at the contents of a system that you'd never have to use would spoil your fun.
Also not sure whether my suggestion in post #175 isn't enough of an 'exclusive' option. I assume by exclusive you mean that if someone cannot, or doesn't want to use the FSS to locate a body, then they shouldn't have the ability to scan it from a distance. I'm fine with that. Have been all along.
Now this is the heart of the problem: I am not saying what the instrumental process is (except the factual bits), I am suggesting what it can become. I am also not accusing anyone of not caring about exploration. But you are very clearly accusing me of thinking such. That's the issue right there.
Because basically it sounds like we want the same. You just seem to think I don't, and that's why there are two sides. Get past that please, and let's instead figure out how we can get the FSS and general exploration interface improved to something that works as well as possible for everybody.
SSo why do I want to use the FSS in tandem with the ADS? Is the FSS not the instrumental process you were referring to? Why do I find one of the most enjoyable tools in the game the SRV wave scanner? Is that not an instrument?
But don't forget, this was merely the motivator. I, and others who would like the ADS in some form in the game, am the reason we're at each other's throat. I feel that is rather harsh, and I'd like to get to the bottom of that
My only issue with the FSS is the frequency. The same issue I would have with any time sink between me and getting the system map.
And that's not because I am lazy, or don't want to spent time exploring. I have spent days on a single planet just to reach some mountain peak in the distance. And I enjoy going full lick over a planet's surface. When I find a system or planet I like the looks of, I become the procrastinator of worlds. Which is why I find it sad that not more tools were developed for the getting up close and personal stage. Probes? Please. I was hoping for trails towards interesting POIs. And if these had been abundant, it had meant the systems would have become more interesting by definition. Which in turn meant my objections to the frequency I have to use the FSS would have vanished.
Throw me a carrot, and I'll play your (Frontier's, not yours) FSS game
Because the FSS is not inherently the problem for me. It's making me jump through hoops every system, when the hit ratio per system is rather low. For my baseline information I do not want to spend much time, because that effort should be proportional to the reward. Flying around a system building the system map is also a time sink which has a low hit ratio. But here also the disclaimer, which I think you agreed with, in the systems themselves would have to be a lot more to investigate as there is now. I'll happily jump through hoops if it meant finding the occasional pot of gold.And please explain then how my suggestions might not work? I find that a bit funny hearing that from people that want to spend time flying around star systems rather spending the time in the FSS, when I basically propose a system that would give the CMDRs the opportunity to get orbital data by flying around and that way taking some time away from the FSS use. The durations I propose might be no more than what it takes to get the ship up over 1C to get the rough picture, with some more time and more focussed flying to tease out more tricky configurations.
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I am also not accusing anyone of not caring about exploration. But you are very clearly accusing me of thinking such. That's the issue right there.
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You're right I am accusing you of that because of this:
There's no other way I can read that than you think others (ie.ADS likers) don't care about the process of exploration?
If that's not what you mean maybe you could try again?
But you'll no longer see a big fat plonker.
Lets chalk it down to hastily typed words fueled by passion for exploration, which are harder to walk back on when the stage is an internet discussion board.
He says just after having made a big deal about it himself.
Me neither. And neither did Sysmon. Because we're a special bunch. We're splorers. We're better than the other gamers. Because they do not splore.
Now there's division I can believe in.
Now there's division I can believe in.
Oh lighten up will ya. At least you could have said: you're not fat.
edit: Just noticed your avatar in combination with that post. Well done indeed.
I'm an FSS lover actually, just one who'd be very happy to see the return of the ADS too.
So why do I want to use the FSS in tandem with the ADS? Is the FSS not the instrumental process you were referring to? Why do I find one of the most enjoyable tools in the game the SRV wave scanner? Is that not an instrument?
But don't forget, this was merely the motivator. I, and others who would like the ADS in some form in the game, am the reason we're at each other's throat. I feel that is rather harsh, and I'd like to get to the bottom of that
My only issue with the FSS is the frequency. The same issue I would have with any time sink between me and getting the system map.
And that's not because I am lazy, or don't want to spent time exploring. I have spent days on a single planet just to reach some mountain peak in the distance. And I enjoy going full lick over a planet's surface. When I find a system or planet I like the looks of, I become the procrastinator of worlds. Which is why I find it sad that not more tools were developed for the getting up close and personal stage. Probes? Please. I was hoping for trails towards interesting POIs. And if these had been abundant, it had meant the systems would have become more interesting by definition. Which in turn meant my objections to the frequency I have to use the FSS would have vanished.
Throw me a carrot, and I'll play your (Frontier's, not yours) FSS game
Because the FSS is not inherently the problem for me. It's making me jump through hoops every system, when the hit ratio per system is rather low. For my baseline information I do not want to spend much time, because that effort should be proportional to the reward. Flying around a system building the system map is also a time sink which has a low hit ratio. But here also the disclaimer, which I think you agreed with, in the systems themselves would have to be a lot more to investigate as there is now. I'll happily jump through hoops if it meant finding the occasional pot of gold.
The time I'd see spent flying around would be measured in seconds, at least to find the major bodies. In essence, the ship would just have to move away from the star. I agree that sometimes that may not be convenient either, so there could be several stages to the improved ADS, the Super-ADS (or SADS):
Upon honk, we could get the main stars and some measure of how much of the total system mass is taken up by these stars. We could also get some numbers on overall composition of the system, which might tell us if the additional mass is taken up by gas giants or other body types. That might be enough to figure out if the system would warrant further investigation.
Moving away from the main star would then reveal orbital configurations, first the bigger and more obvious stuff, then smaller and more distant objects. This might work somewhat similar to the pre-indefinite ADS so require a bit of search skill.
When the mass balance is satisfied, the system map would be populated with blacked-out bodies. To get the remaining data, it would be FSS time, or alternatively we could rock up to the bodies and scan them passively.
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