Tired of the Open vs. Private Debacle

[Mohrgan]

You can't have an optional extra in a competitive feature, because eventually people will just choose the most efficient way- which in Popwerplays case is the most boring and generic, which in no way makes it stand apart from the other features that use that same mechanic. Which then begs the question why have PP at all?

You can when the competative feature is to fill PvE buckets. When those buckets are available in any mode. You can when you have the opportunity, just as any other Commander, to make what use you see in the modes. Treat them like your fleet of ships. Take out the one you think will fit the bill.

Get all of those PvP buffs just waiting for PvP-PP and get it on. I shouldn't have to give up my choices, because you can't get a fight. Sorry. PvP is just not that iomportant.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

BTW - anybody played Space Marine PvP? I loved that.

You need to define rules to play within them- one allows direct co-op team action if it was allowed. You have 3 modes, 2 which confer advantages regards efficency at the cost of variety, 1 which may contain lethal ships but the ability to block them.

The moment you accept rules you accept to play within the confines of those rules. Lamenting about the existing rules isn't playing the game, it's wanting a different game.
Nothing wrong with wanting a different game.
Unsurprisingly those aspects you might not like about this game are the aspects others like about this game.

We all want different things and nobody is going to change our view of what we want - most of the time.

 

[Mohrgan]

But it does, because you are in direct competition with others- not via an abstraction like the BGS, but where you can physically see what others are doing to the very second and reported as such.

It's telling that you omitted the stuff about the 'Conda and PAs because it just blows your talking point away. If you can be so easily forced into doing something you don't like, I don;t know what to say. Except for; don't expect me to take care of it for you.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You can when the competative feature is to fill PvE buckets. When those buckets are available in any mode. You can when you have the opportunity, just as any other Commander, to make what use you see in the modes. Treat them like your fleet of ships. Take out the one you think will fit the bill.

Get all of those PvP buffs just waiting for PvP-PP and get it on. I shouldn't have to give up my choices, because you can't get a fight. Sorry. PvP is just not that iomportant.

This is not PvP in the 1:1 sense, its you slowing or stopping another power, or should be.

And without a way (either via NPCs or other players) to slow gathering merits, you wind up with grind races- and why Powerplay is so loved.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The moment you accept rules you accept to play within the confines of those rules. Lamenting about the existing rules isn't playing the game, it's wanting a different game.
Nothing wrong with wanting a different game.
Unsurprisingly those aspects you might not like about this game are the aspects others like about this game.

We all want different things and nobody is going to change our view of what we want - most of the time.

I don't want a different game. I want the BGS to be multi mode. I don't want Open to be applied to anything else other than Powerplay in whole or in part, because it needs it. In short, players replace NPCs, since in PP contexts they simply don't offer any resistance, team up with you or help your power out.

 

[Rick6549]

Elite Dangerous on Steam

Take control of your own starship in a cutthroat galaxy. Elite Dangerous is the definitive massively multiplayer space epic.

store.steampowered.com

Lets look at the negative reviews on the first page.

1- first one is a well written post that does hit quite a few negative points on ED.
2 and 3- complaining about fleet carriers.
4- is well written; fair number of valid issues.
5-10: All complaining about "grind".
11: fleet carriers.


So out of the first 11, we have 2 well thought out posts, 3 angry about fleet carriers and 6 angry about a grind, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how Sandbox games work. What are you "grind"ing for? Endgame? Sandboxes don't have endgames! lol

This is my point. Out of 11 posts, 2 are people who actually dislike the game for reasons other than fundamental misunderstanding about what the game is about or aren't simply angry that a literal capital ship costs credits.

And they all have more than 200 hours

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

This is not PvP in the 1:1 sense, its you slowing or stopping another power, or should be.

And without a way (either via NPCs or other players) to slow gathering merits, you wind up with grind races- and why Powerplay is so loved.

The issue with PowerPlay - in my opinion - is that it's a boring and grinding PvE gameplay loop. Adding PvP to make it even more tedious isn't going to make it fun.

PvP needs to be fun. Then it can add to an other gameplay loop that is fun.

Currently PvP alone isn't fun. Adding it to an already un-fun gameplay loop doesn't make that gameplay fun, it makes it less fun.

 

[Mohrgan]

This is not PvP in the 1:1 sense, its you slowing or stopping another power, or should be.

And without a way (either via NPCs or other players) to slow gathering merits, you wind up with grind races- and why Powerplay is so loved.

REgurgitating your observations and complaints doesn't answer to the jist of my point. Go ahead and come up with ideas to make PvP more engaging and important in the game. That alone should draw players in. But, don;t suggest doing it by removing content form others, or through bribery. Let those that want to PvP be responsible for their PvP. I'll take care of my interests.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The issue with PowerPlay - in my opinion - is that it's a boring and grinding PvE gameplay loop. Adding PvP to make it even more tedious isn't going to make it fun.

PvP needs to be fun. Then it can add to an other gameplay loop that is fun.

Currently PvP alone isn't fun. Adding it to an already un-fun gameplay loop doesn't make that gameplay fun, it makes it less fun.

Speaking for myself, I started Powerplay in solo, and found it okay but as time went on very dull. Then the Kumo attacked, and we engaged in cat and mouse patrols while they UMed my old power. It was night and day, it broke the cycle of clockwork NPCs and situations and made the game feel new. PvP here interfaced with PvE and made simple tasks complicated- no more min max ships or brainless flying because you had to apply yourself totally. But you were also not alone either, with people to back you up.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

This. Everyone has access to all three modes; the game is fair. When someone wants to control my choice of mode they are actually saying that fairness isn't enough and they want an advantage. I'm to be denied the use of a valid game feature and it'll be at their choice instead. Where will this end? Will they want me to promise never to use boost? Will they want my pitch axis bound to their joystick? Do I have to self-destruct on their say-so?

Uh... No. You can't just declare nonsense like that and think you've made a point. I explicitly wrote that positive change I am all for. I explicitly wrote that I don;t see your suggestions as positive change. They force PvP on players that don't want it. In a game that was sold with a solid way to avoid it. They put one play style above another. In a game where PvP doesn't even matter. (Remember? It's all just filling buckets.)

Lets discuss a way to integrate PvP into what we have, rather than take content away from players that currently have the same access as you. PvP is just not that important.

Saying PvP isn't important would be like me saying that the first discovered tag isn't important or hunting goids isn't important, or trading isn't important. None of it is important in the literal sense. What is important will vary group to group.

Integrating PvP into what we have is literally what's being suggested. By changing how a single aspect of powerplay works you integrate it into that one aspect. But if you really want to discuss it, and you don't think the suggestions given this far work, what would suggest to integrate PvP into the game/powerplay?

 

[Rubbernuke]

REgurgitating your observations and complaints doesn't answer to the jist of my point. Go ahead and come up with ideas to make PvP more engaging and important in the game. That alone should draw players in. But, don;t suggest doing it by removing content form others, or through bribery. Let those that want to PvP be responsible for their PvP. I'll take care of my interests.

How is it bribery to give players new content that fits how they play better? Players who want PvP would then have a mode that offers it too- everyone wins. No underlying gameplay is taken away from anyone- what some object to is the thought of it being taken away.

CQC scratches the 1:1 fighting, but there is no feature that allows objective based fighting in the main game using your 'real' ships- that is, have a feature that deliberately mixes the potential for combat with players with simple tasks.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Speaking for myself, I started Powerplay in solo, and found it okay but as time went on very dull. Then the Kumo attacked, and we engaged in cat and mouse patrols while they UMed my old power. It was night and day, it broke the cycle of clockwork NPCs and situations and made the game feel new. PvP here interfaced with PvE and made simple tasks complicated- no more min max ships or brainless flying because you had to apply yourself totally. But you were also not alone either, with people to back you up.

I understand what is drawing you to PvP. The promise, the possibility - but at it's core PowerPlay is the same dull PvE bucket filling grind. It's not just PowerPlay, it's the entire game. It's not designed for PvP, it's designed in all aspects to discourage PvP and optimized for min-max PvE.
Realizing this was a shock for me long ago.

And there is always the sirens song of what could be if only…
But it would require a lot more than just Open only PowerPlay.

 

[Mohrgan]

Saying PvP isn't important would be like me saying that the first discovered tag isn't important or hunting goids isn't important, or trading isn't important. None of it is important in the literal sense. What is important will vary group to group.

Integrating PvP into what we have is literally what's being suggested. By changing how a single aspect of powerplay works you integrate it into that one aspect. But if you really want to discuss it, and you don't think the suggestions given this far work, what would suggest to integrate PvP into the game/powerplay?

It isn't. Not to a player that has a different focus. What I was saying is that PvP isn't important enough to disenfranchise any other player, in any way. You can integrate PvP into the game's moving pieces by adding it in. You don;t have to force it on anyone, or take content away for it. Over the years I have made a number of suggestions that respected the modes, and preserved current content. That's all I ask. We can work out details, but as I see it, things have to start from those premises. At least.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I understand what is drawing you to PvP. The promise, the possibility - but at it's core PowerPlay is the same dull PvE bucket filling grind. It's not just PowerPlay, it's the entire game. It's not designed for PvP, it's designed in all aspects to discourage PvP and optimized for min-max PvE.
Realizing this was a shock for me long ago.

And there is always the sirens song of what could be if only…
But it would require a lot more than just Open only PowerPlay.

And this is where I think you are wrong- because I've seen how direct conflict opens out that feature. Its like spinning plates, one is boring, but having lots is not. Powerplay is dull because the most efficient mode is its most boring, with minimal opposition. You can take off, fly and land and never have anything happen. Repeat that over and over and you will get bored. Now think what would happen if rival players stood between you and your goal- and what skills, builds and techniques you would need to achieve the same task.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

It isn't. Not to a player that has a different focus. What I was saying is that PvP isn't important enough to disenfranchise any other player, in any way. You can integrate PvP into the game's moving pieces by adding it in. You don;t have to force it on anyone, or take content away for it. Over the years I have made a number of suggestions that respected the modes, and preserved current content. That's all I ask. We can work out details, but as I see it, things have to start from those premises. At least.

Id like to see what one of your suggestions are.

And just like PvP is enough to disenfranchise players, so is grind for the sake of grind.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

. Now think what would happen if rival players stood between you and your goal- and what skills, builds and techniques you would need to achieve the same task.

This is what appeals to people. Dynamic problem solving. Rock paper scissors but with space ships.

 

[Mohrgan]

Id like to see what one of your suggestions are.

And just like PvP is enough to disenfranchise players, so is grind for the sake of grind.

Rail against the Grind then....

My latest and favorite suggestion, like I added here already, was to add PvP Vouchers to the game. Each time a PvP engament is finished the winners would get 3 Vouchers, and the losers would get 1. That is intended to get people to at least try, knowing they would at get something for thier effort. Those vouchers could be returned to a Faction or to a Power in exchanget for monies and influence. People that like to PvP would have an avenue to influence the galaxy. Those that are maybe interested in PvP will be encouraged by not leaving empty handed. Those that are desperate for influence will have a carrot they can choose to chase.

No one loses any content. No one is forced to PvP. All modes are repsected. See? It's not impossible.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

Rail against the Grind then....

My latest and favorite suggestion, like I added here already, was to add PvP Vouchers to the game. Each time a PvP engament is finished the winners would get 3 Vouchers, and the losers would get 1. That is intended to get people to at least try, knowing they would at least get something for thier effort. Those vouchers could be returned to a Faction or to a Power in exchanget for monies and influence. People that like to PvP would have an avenue to influence the galaxy. Those that are maybe interested in PvP will be encouraged by not leaving empty handed. Those that are desperate for influence will have a carrot they can choose to chase.

No one loses any content. No one is forced to PvP. All modes are repsected. See? It's not impossible.

A not bad suggestion for PvP in general, but rather than it being integrated, it's tacked onto the side. Obviously that's the point of it though. So you don't want PvP integrated into the game systems. Because if it's integrated that means its a an actual part of it. Integrating it is what the PvP community wants.

So its a good suggestion, but it doesn't solve the problem powerplay specifically is facing. Which is the path of least resistance is what players follow to accomplish specific goals, and if your goal is to compete in powerplay, that path of least resistance makes the mode not worth engaging in. That's what needs to be addressed and what the suggestions target.

If you don't incorporate a basic understanding of player behavior into the suggestion, even if it's solid from a surface level, it doesn't fix anything.

 

[Kekkonshiki]

Honestly, that could be accomplished by making the movement speed and agility of the giant ships actually make sense. The fact that you have Federal Corvettes doing barrel roles and dogfighting little fighters is beyond silly. If those ships moved the way they should move, folks wouldn't fly them near as much because they'd be boring as hell.

Oh hey, remember my post like 3 minutes ago about me feeling the same way but on other topics... there we go =D

Depends how well built they are. Have a look 24 seconds in to this:

 

[Mohrgan]

A not bad suggestion for PvP in general, but rather than it being integrated, it's tacked onto the side. Obviously that's the point of it though. So you don't want PvP integrated into the game systems. Because if it's integrated that means its a an actual part of it. Integrating it is what the PvP community wants.

So its a good suggestion, but it doesn't solve the problem powerplay specifically is facing. Which is the path of least resistance is what players follow to accomplish specific goals, and if your goal is to compete in powerplay, that path of least resistance makes the mode not worth engaging in. That's what needs to be addressed and what the suggestions target.

If you don't incorporate a basic understanding of player behavior into the suggestion, even if it's solid from a surface level, it doesn't fix anything.

You get Combat Vouchers in Combat Zones. You turn those Vouchers in for monies and influence. It would be the same for PvP Vouchers. How is that not integrated? It would be as integrated as Combat Zones are now. It looks like you just want to dismiss the idea in order to get back to your open only agenda. As it always has, from your whole sect.

I don't accept the least resistance theory. I suspect that people do what they find the most fun, and rewarding. Look at yourself, I'm sure you don;t do your PP business outside of open. You stay in open for the chance at PvP. Well, buy giving players Combat Vouchers for PvP, as described above, you offer influence and monies that can't be gotten otherwise. Doesn't that sound tempting? This is way players are rewarded for actual PvP, and not just the threat of it.

Amateur psychology doesn't impress me. Like I said above, I think people do what they find fun and rewarding. Sometimes, it seems, rewarding is more compelling that fun. Offer influence and credits for PvP and see what happens. I mean, all we get in game is money and influence, what more could PvP require?

Oh yeah.... Forced participation. I almost forgot.