News Community Update (01/05)

[zimms]

Be that as it may. There is a very clear difference between 1)selling something, people paying money for it and then not delivering it; and 2) not paying for something until it is actually released. In the case of Elite what you saw is what you got (alphas, betas and gammas, almost a year of it during 2013-2014). People buying into the base game knew full well space legs and atmos would be eventually paid for separately and at a later date.

Sure, I never said Elite's and NMS's situations were completely identical. But both games' initial sale numbers were boosted by talk about features that didn't make it into the game (yet).

NMS and Elite aside, CIG and StarCitizen/Squadron42 hold the crown for "promises" boosting initial sales/pledge numbers

I agree.

 

[Wrecked]

It does not change the equation much in terms of the deception discussion tho. The succesful pre-sales and sales on release were all heavily influenced by Murray´s "messages" prior to release.

Sounds like all the ED Kickstarter materials produced by FDev... 8 years later, most of those features still do not exist. NMS has done everything AND more than what they sold to players.... oh and they did it in 3 years.

I’m not defending NMS and the actions Sean took to sell the game. No developer should ever do what he did. However, it is ridiculous to make it appear as if only Sean was intentionally deceitful to make sales. Pretending that deceit hasn’t been part of FDev’s strategy since the Kickstarter is even more ridiculous.

Call B S where it is due if you want to see a game you love be the best it can be. Hold companies accountable to their announcements and promises.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Sounds like all the ED Kickstarter materials produced by FDev... 8 years later, most of those features still do not exist. NMS has done everything AND more than what they sold to players.... oh and they did it in 3 years.

I’m not defending NMS and the actions Sean took to sell the game. No developer should ever do what he did. However, it is ridiculous to make it appear as if only Sean was intentionally deceitful to make sales. Pretending that deceit hasn’t been part of FDev’s strategy since the Kickstarter is even more ridiculous.

Call where it is due if you want to see a game you love be the best it can be. Hold companies accounts to their announcements and promises.

It is a taboo around here calling out the (at times) ridiculous claims of Braben about the future during the kickstarter period. It is not regarded as promise, simply a 'what Elite could become', therefore he is not accountable.

 

[Viajero]

However, it is ridiculous to make it appear as if only Sean was intentionally deceitful to make sales. Pretending that deceit hasn’t been part of FDev’s strategy since the Kickstarter is even more ridiculous.

It is not a matter of "appearing" or not deceitful. As project head Sean Murray was fully aware what the game would include or not in the days or weeks prior to release where the content was locked (if not much earlier). He then had a chance to come out and correct himself in public prior to release but he did not. He did not even communicate at all for over a frikking month following release while players were still buying his product only to discover all the missing, but very specifically sold for money, elements of the game. Not sure you can argue in good faith that there was not a hint of deceit there but hey.

On the other hand and as far as I know FDEV has not done that yet with space legs or atmos, they were very specifically stated as to be released in subsequent updates at undefined times, and would only be payable at that time (except minority of LEPers), exactly as Horizons was.

Orders of magnitude difference.

Call where it is due if you want to see a game you love be the best it can be. Hold companies accounts to their announcements and promises.

In the case of Sean Murray it was quite straight forward. People paid for those missing elements. In the case of Elite´s space legs and atmos, accountable for what exactly? Other than the minority of LEPers the rest of the player base has not payed a single dollar for atmos or space legs. Those are products that FDEV is funding with his own resources and where all the risk resides on them. I can understand we all would like to have those sooner rather than later, but it is FDEV´s money, their resources, their risk and therefore their decision about how and when to release.

I mean, I am dying to know more about the next Tesla model after Y, but I can hardly make Elon Musk accountable for not releasing that info or car yet. Ditto with getting to Mars. Now if I was a US taxpayer I would probably be a bit more demanding of NASA .

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

It is not a matter of "appearing" or not deceitful. As project head Sean Murray was fully aware what the game would include or not in the days or weeks prior to release where the content was locked (if not much earlier). He then had a chance to come out and correct himself in public prior to release but he did not. He did not even communicate at all for over a frikking month following release while players were still buying his product only to discover all the missing, but very specifically sold for money, elements of the game. Not sure you can argue in good faith that there was not a hint of deceit there but hey.

On the other hand and as far as I know FDEV has not done that yet with space legs or atmos, they were very specifically stated as to be released in subsequent updates at undefined times, and would only be payable at that time (except minority of LEPers), exactly as Horizons was.

Orders of magnitude difference.

I also despise Sean for what he has done, however, there were talks about him being pressed into unrealistic claims and deadlines by Sony.
He could have taken the money at launch and spend the rest of his life on the Bahamas, yet he stayed and made vast improvements on his game.

When it comes to Elite, at the very least LEPers can claim that they haven't got the updates in reasonable timeframe. 'At undefined times' pretty much sounds like a loan without interest you will definitely repay at some point in the future... perhaps when the Sun goes supergiant?
The way I see it there was a gentlemens agreement between the users and FDev that we keep supporting the game via microtransactions and de facto commit to buy any DLC in condition they are keeping a reasonable pace of updates - which didn't happen.

 

[Viajero]

I also despise Sean for what he has done, however, there were talks about him being pressed into unrealistic claims and deadlines by Sony.

I am pretty sure every action by a human on earth has really good and solid explanations. Or at least I am sure we can rationalize it all.

He was still the head of the project. Even if those Sony stories are true, he still had a very simple choice. As head of the project he could have stood up against that pressure, correct himself publicly prior to release and accept the consequences of that impact (if any) with Sony. Those are the kind of (brave? Ethical?) decisions heads of projects can take. Alas he did not do it.

I suspect (just my personal view) that following that Sean probably felt quite guilty and tried very hard to make it up with the subsequent updates we all know and appreciate by now. Good on him, and good on NMS which is now quite a good game. But comparing Elite kickstarter atmos or space legs vision with the original NMS missing (but actually sold) promises is really apples and oranges.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I am pretty sure every action by a human on earth has really good and solid explanations. Or at least I am sure we can rationalize it all.

He was still the head of the project. Even if those Sony stories are true, he still had a very simple choice. As head of the project he could have stood up against that pressure, correct himself publicly prior to release and accept the consequences of that impact (if any) with Sony. Those are the kind of (brave? Ethical?) decisions heads of projects can take. Alas he did not do it.

I suspect (just my personal view) that following that Sean probably felt quite guilty and tried very hard to make it up with the subsequent updates we all know and appreciate by now. Good on him, and good on NMS which is now quite a good game. But comparing Elite kickstarter atmos or space legs vision with the original NMS missing (but actually sold) promises is really apples and oranges.

It is pretty difficult to judge his actions as both his 'sins' and deeds are unparalleled in the gaming industry. I agree that the stories are very different, however, I still find it interesting how all major space games are riddled with unrealistic dreams/expectations and series of missed deadlines.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

the worst release in the history of gaming

I think there were much worse. X-Rebirth release from our own space genre (which also got significantly better with time), Aliens Colonial Marines to another oversell example, Duke Nukem Forever as an example of project taking forever and ending up mediocre at least.

On the other hand and as far as I know FDEV has not done that yet with space legs or atmos, they were very specifically stated as to be released in subsequent updates at undefined times, and would only be payable at that time
(...)
In the case of Sean Murray it was quite straight forward. People paid for those missing elements.

You're right, however, to be completely fair I didn't pay a dime yet for NMS updates. They were all completely free. And I didn't even pay the full price, got it at a sale. Basically, all NMS customers got the LEP treatment. For a normal game release price of 60 "coins". Barebones Elite remained at that price for a year or two if I remember correctly - I was checking out if Braben has come to his senses wrt to pricing. And was the game even available on steam at start or was it only FDev website? That might have played a part in the pricing scheme... Irregardless, comparing what we got for a single game price from NMS and Elite doesn't come out favourably for the later.

 

[amigacooke]

In the case of Sean Murray it was quite straight forward. People paid for those missing elements.

Let's apply a standard ED defence.

The purchasers got the missing elements, just not at the time they were expecting them and for no extra cost.

It was a failure of user expectation

 

[Viajero]

I think there were much worse. X-Rebirth release from our own space genre (which also got significantly better with time), Aliens Colonial Marines to another oversell example, Duke Nukem Forever as an example of project taking forever and ending up mediocre at least.



You're right, however, to be completely fair I didn't pay a dime yet for NMS updates. They were all completely free. And I didn't even pay the full price, got it at a sale. Basically, all NMS customers got the LEP treatment. For a normal game release price of 60 "coins". Barebones Elite remained at that price for a year or two if I remember correctly - I was checking out if Braben has come to his senses wrt to pricing. And was the game even available on steam at start or was it only FDev website? That might have played a part in the pricing scheme... Irregardless, comparing what we got for a single game price from NMS and Elite doesn't come out favourably for the later.

Well, a lot of the additions in subsequent NMS updates were for content and features that had already been sold / paid for but not delivered yet (not the case for atmos or space legs that no one has paid for yet, except minority of LEPers). The rest in NMS is indeed aditional but funded thanks to the spectacular sales partly due to the original false info and misrepresetation so Also, Elite has had its share of free updates too, etc. And I disagree on your last sentence aswell, again apples to oranges. Elite has elements that NMS has been unable to deliver thanks to how Elite has been developped, and that has a price. NMS is a great game, and I have played it quite a bit, but has been developed by a very small team and its gameplay reflects that imo.

 

[AveCandido]

As always comparing NMS with ELite is like comparing cars ... different models and qualities NMS is utility (FIAT) ELite a high-end (BMW)

 

[VR StarLightPL]

As always comparing NMS with ELite is like comparing cars ... different models and qualities NMS is utility (FIAT) ELite a high-end (BMW)

I'm a BMW owner and I disagree with that vehemently Elite is at most an Alfa Romeo (and number of bugs checks out)

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Also I wasn't trying to compare the two, just addressed the value for money wrt pitched features on both games. They are different games.

 

[AveCandido]

Sounds like all the ED Kickstarter materials produced by FDev... 8 years later, most of those features still do not exist. NMS has done everything AND more than what they sold to players.... oh and they did it in 3 years.

I’m not defending NMS and the actions Sean took to sell the game. No developer should ever do what he did. However, it is ridiculous to make it appear as if only Sean was intentionally deceitful to make sales. Pretending that deceit hasn’t been part of FDev’s strategy since the Kickstarter is even more ridiculous.

Call B S where it is due if you want to see a game you love be the best it can be. Hold companies accountable to their announcements and promises.

Sounds like all the ED Kickstarter materials produced by FDev... 8 years later, most of those features still do not exist. NMS has done everything AND more than what they sold to players.... oh and they did it in 3 years.

I’m not defending NMS and the actions Sean took to sell the game. No developer should ever do what he did. However, it is ridiculous to make it appear as if only Sean was intentionally deceitful to make sales. Pretending that deceit hasn’t been part of FDev’s strategy since the Kickstarter is even more ridiculous.

Call B S where it is due if you want to see a game you love be the best it can be. Hold companies accountable to their announcements and promises.

See if you really knew about the internal programming work ... you yourself would be ashamed of what you say

 

[StuartGT]

For a normal game release price of 60 "coins". Barebones Elite remained at that price for a year or two if I remember correctly - I was checking out if Braben has come to his senses wrt to pricing. And was the game even available on steam at start or was it only FDev website? That might have played a part in the pricing scheme... Irregardless, comparing what we got for a single game price from NMS and Elite doesn't come out favourably for the later.

Elite Dangerous was discounted to £10/$15 during Black Friday 2015:

IMO, part of the reason Elite Dangerous was discounted so much during the first year was due to relatively poor sales, and a large part of that was due to the "promises" of all the features/content that 2016's launches of both Star Citizen and NMS were going to contain... The three were compared constantly, as they still are somewhat now: "the future scope of StarCitizen/NoMan'sSky is far bigger than what Elite Dangerous has now" was often repeated back then.

 

[AveCandido]

I'm a BMW owner and I disagree with that vehemently Elite is at most an Alfa Romeo (and number of bugs checks out)

I'm a Rolls and it's not a Rolls ... NMS = FIAT/ALFA ROMEO

 

[AveCandido]

Elite Dangerous was discounted to £10/$15 during Black Friday 2015:

IMO, part of the reason Elite Dangerous was discounted so much during the first year was due to relatively poor sales, and a large part of that was due to the "promises" of all the features/content that 2016's launches of both Star Citizen and NMS were going to contain... The three were compared constantly, as they still are somewhat now: "the future scope of StarCitizen/NoMan'sSky is far bigger than what Elite Dangerous has now" was often repeated back then.

This information is misleading, since the rebate of the Elite has often been only from the part without horizon and never Elite Horizon; that I have seen on steam, always discounts one and the other part is discounted, equal to 1 plus 1

 

[Rat Catcher]

Anyone been around here a while knows what soon™ means....

Nothing

Eventually™ is the new term

All that said, I've had to delay a second development team coming online for 2 months... - Thats real life for ya

Fortunately, I have managed to not become engaged with such abject cynicism over what I might expect from the delivery of game content. I hail from the days that a game (initially) came on a cassette and what you had was all you were going to get...

But, that is my outlook and at least permits me to not be at all bothered if an 'update' is even delivered, when I get bored with any game, and ED is still just a game, I go play something else, no problem.

So for you, and your real life development team, eventually applies also? Odd that, what on earth is causing your delay, laziness? Incompetence? Poor management? Or any of the multitude of petty insults that are bandied around here? I certainly couldn't be a global pandemic that is causing all kinds of issues everywhere, surely?

 

[thistle]

This information is misleading, since the rebate of the Elite has often been only from the part without horizon and never Elite Horizon; that I have seen on steam, always discounts one and the other part is discounted, equal to 1 plus 1

No, I bought the combined Elite + Horizons as a 2nd account on Steam very cheap, can't remember now as it was a while ago, but it certainly wasn't a full price game.

Fake edit - just checked, £15 total, £5 for one £10 for the other.

 

[StuartGT]

Elite Dangerous was discounted to £10/$15 during Black Friday 2015:

IMO, part of the reason Elite Dangerous was discounted so much during the first year was due to relatively poor sales, and a large part of that was due to the "promises" of all the features/content that 2016's launches of both Star Citizen and NMS were going to contain... The three were compared constantly, as they still are somewhat now: "the future scope of StarCitizen/NoMan'sSky is far bigger than what Elite Dangerous has now" was often repeated back then.

This information is misleading, since the rebate of the Elite has often been only from the part without horizon and never Elite Horizon; that I have seen on steam, always discounts one and the other part is discounted, equal to 1 plus 1

That is the price chart for Elite Dangerous basegame on Steam. It was 67% off (from £30), during Black Friday sale.

If you're referring to buying Horizons, or the CMDR Deluxe bundle, they are on different price charts.