News Community Update (01/05)

[Viajero]

Let's apply a standard ED defence.

The purchasers got the missing elements, just not at the time they were expecting them and for no extra cost.

It was a failure of user expectation

Unless you are referring to the minority of LEPers (with regards to space legs and atmos etc) that "defence" does not really translate well there I am afraid since no one else has paid for that content yet, unlike NMS pre-sales and sales during launch. Plus in the case of the LEP there has never been an estimated date for its elements whereas NMS release date was known well in advance, and the game was being pre-sold, during the period where most of the major misrepresentations happened and sold throughout the whole radio silence period after launch.

Or were you rather thinking about the DDF?

 

[VR StarLightPL]

relatively poor sales, and a large part of that was due to the "promises" of all the features/content that 2016's launches of both Star Citizen and NMS were going to contain

It was simply too much for me comparing to what the game offered at that time. Keep in mind that was pre-horizons, so we couldn't even land at planets. Decided to wait for sale, bought shortly before Horizons. As for Black Friday tbh I wasn't much aware of it. In my country it only slowly starts to be a thing, and the sales are mostly scams, e.g. price jacking a few days earlier just to "cut them down" on BF...

Never was a part of NMS release hype (maybe that's why I'm not particularly burned by it), and as for SC I tried one free week, saw the state the software was in and decided to "shelf it" once they have something substantial. Years later, they don't. They keep piling features to something that doesn't look quite stable, but that's another thread with California vibes.

 

[Rat Catcher]

No, I bought the combined Elite + Horizons as a 2nd account on Steam very cheap, can't remember now as it was a while ago, but it certainly wasn't a full price game.

Fake edit - just checked, £15 total, £5 for one £10 for the other.

I did even better
Humble Bundle sale time!

 

[StuartGT]

On a general pricing note, when buying any game it's always worth checking this site, as it'll tell you whether you're overpaying, i.e. has recently been discounted in a sale:

IsThereAnyDeal

isthereanydeal.com

 

[VR StarLightPL]

On a general pricing note, when buying any game it's always worth checking this site, as it'll tell you whether you're overpaying, i.e. has recently been discounted in a sale:

IsThereAnyDeal

isthereanydeal.com

our polish

Game deals - Find PC games on sale - GG.deals

Compare prices of video games from over 40 stores, find the best game deals online. CD Keys for all PC games on the market at the best price!

gg.deals

is good too.

 

[Wrecked]

I am pretty sure every action by a human on earth has really good and solid explanations. Or at least I am sure we can rationalize it all.

He was still the head of the project. Even if those Sony rationalizations are true, he still had a very simple choice. As head of the project he could have stood up against that pressure, correct himself publicly prior to release and accept the consequences of that impact (if any) with Sony. Those are the kind of choices heads of projects face. Alas he did not do it.

Yes, he made a mistake with the handling of his first major game. He was clearly in over his head. What has he done since that mistake? He has just produced results and transformed the game to more that what was ever promised. While FDev have produced a divided community, HGs produced the promises they made. But the issue isn’t Hello Games or Sean Murray, it’s FDev and what they have produced since they sold the Kickstarter on half truths and loophole.

It is not a matter of "appearing" or not deceitful. As project head Sean Murray was fully aware what the game would include or not in the days or weeks prior to release where the content was locked (if not much earlier). He then had a chance to come out and correct himself in public prior to release but he did not. He did not even communicate at all for over a frikking month following release while players were still buying his product only to discover all the missing, but very specifically sold for money, elements of the game. Not sure you can argue in good faith that there was not a hint of deceit there but hey.

On the other hand and as far as I know FDEV has not done that yet with space legs or atmos, they were very specifically stated as to be released in subsequent updates at undefined times, and would only be payable at that time (except minority of LEPers), exactly as Horizons was.

Orders of magnitude difference.



In the case of Sean Murray it was quite straight forward. People paid for those missing elements. In the case of Elite´s space legs and atmos, accountable for what exactly? Other than the minority of LEPers the rest of the player base has not payed a single dollar for atmos or space legs. Those are products that FDEV is funding with his own resources and where all the risk resides on them. I can understand we all would like to have those sooner rather than later, but it is FDEV´s money, their resources, their risk and therefore their decision about how and when to release.

I mean, I am dying to know more about the next Tesla model after Y, but I can hardly make Elon Musk accountable for not releasing that info or car yet. Ditto with getting to Mars. Now if I was a US taxpayer I would probably be a bit more demanding of NASA .

When a company implies something is going to happen and creates an entire publicly accessible video interviewing many of the developers on the game as well as the owner of the company and every one of them says the most exciting feature they are looking forward to is: “when I will be able to get out of my seat and walk around”... what message does that send to the community? Surely it is reasonable to think this is a feature that the developer is keen on developing. Why would FDev put so much energy in talking about a feature that is half a decade away from seeing light? What’s the point? This isn’t a video FDev produced last year, this is something produced 5 years ago (Said video).

This game launched in 2014. It is reasonable for people to be getting to the point of frustration after years of questionable decisions by the developer that have nothing to do with all the cool features they made multiple videos on and discussed early in the game’s life. If they aren’t going to make good on the things they discussed to get people to fund their Kickstarter and their game, then FDev should have the decency to be honest to their patrons. If they have completely changed their plans and are not willing to tell their community, then they are no better than Sean Murray was during the development of No Man’s Sky.

 

[Wrecked]

See if you really knew about the internal programming work ... you yourself would be ashamed of what you say

I do and I’m not

 

[Viajero]

Yes, he made a mistake with the handling of his first major game. He was clearly in over his head. What has he done since that mistake? He has just produced results and transformed the game to more that what was ever promised. While FDev have produced a divided community, HGs produced the promises they made. But the issue isn’t Hello Games or Sean Murray, it’s FDev and what they have produced since they sold the Kickstarter on half truths and loophole.

I fully agree with you as a gamer that new content sooner is better than later. And frustration for some is an obvious byproduct. But it is very hard to seriously hold anyone accountable for something no one (except a minority of LEPers) has yet paid a single dollar for (unlike NMS original and very successful pre sales and sales on launch). I am afraid it is FDEV´s money, their resources, their risk and therefore their decision about how and when to release those "half truths".

I mean, I am dying to know more about the next Tesla models coming after Y, based on Elon Musk´s vision for a world without fosil fuel transport. But I can hardly make him accountable for not releasing that info or car(s) yet. His money, his resources, his risk and his decision about how and when to release that.

This game launched in 2014. It is reasonable for people to be getting to the point of frustration after years of questionable decisions by the developer that have nothing to do with all the cool features they made multiple videos on and discussed early in the game’s life. If they aren’t going to make good on the things they discussed to get people to fund their Kickstarter and their game, then FDev should have the decency to be honest to their patrons. If they have completely changed their plans and are not willing to tell their community, then they are no better than Sean Murray was during the development of No Man’s Sky.

The good news is that it all points out there is actually a new DLC coming up.

 

[AveCandido]

I do and I’m not

You yourself portray your ignorance, how lucky you are that this forum does not allow certain things, otherwise I would spend a few hours of laughter.

And to clarify, I am not a white knight ... rather, in many forums they know me as an authentic HP (in Spanish and it is not Hourse Power), and the Elite, I wait for you when I present the New Era, for the moment they are freed by we don't know anything

The current is fine and the UC in FC are not enough The treatment of LEPA users is not good

 

[Wrecked]

You yourself portray your ignorance, how lucky you are that this forum does not allow certain things, otherwise I would spend a few hours of laughter.

And to clarify, I am not a white knight ... rather, in many forums they know me as an authentic HP (in Spanish and it is not Hourse Power), and the Elite, I wait for you when I present the New Era, for the moment they are freed by we don't know anything

The current is fine and the UC in FC are not enough The treatment of LEPA users is not good

Your words are both intriguing and confusing to me. I am intrigued by the certain things that spend a few hours of laughter and I am confused by the present the New Era, for the moment they are freed by we don't know anything.... You know what, I'm actually confused by all of it.

I'm sensing negativity towards me... but it seems to be lost in translation.

 

[SP_Predicador]

When a company implies something is going to happen and creates an entire publicly accessible video interviewing many of the developers on the game as well as the owner of the company and every one of them says the most exciting feature they are looking forward to is: “when I will be able to get out of my seat and walk around”... what message does that send to the community? Surely it is reasonable to think this is a feature that the developer is keen on developing. Why would FDev put so much energy in talking about a feature that is half a decade away from seeing light? What’s the point? This isn’t a video FDev produced last year, this is something produced 5 years ago (Said video).

This game launched in 2014. It is reasonable for people to be getting to the point of frustration after years of questionable decisions by the developer that have nothing to do with all the cool features they made multiple videos on and discussed early in the game’s life. If they aren’t going to make good on the things they discussed to get people to fund their Kickstarter and their game, then FDev should have the decency to be honest to their patrons. If they have completely changed their plans and are not willing to tell their community, then they are no better than Sean Murray was during the development of No Man’s Sky.

Because of that, my turning point is the new DLC release. But, because we know that Next Era DLC is going to be launched early 2021, I think we only can wait, and we must wait, both wks and critics, also haters. Because it will be the only way to really know the level of true effort put into this game, since Horizons (not FC, a minor low effort feature in my opinion, part of Beyond, not even being Beyond a "major update" by itself). We'll only know when the DLC is released, then we'll finally will be able to judge without further delays, but not before, the true quality of this development.

 

[amigacooke]

Unless you are referring to the minority of LEPers (with regards to space legs and atmos etc) that "defence" does not really translate well there I am afraid since no one else has paid for that content yet, unlike NMS pre-sales and sales during launch. Plus in the case of the LEP there has never been an estimated date for its elements whereas NMS release date was known well in advance, and the game was being pre-sold, during the period where most of the major misrepresentations happened and sold throughout the whole radio silence period after launch.

Or were you rather thinking about the DDF?

I think you've failed to spot the parody of those who like to blame user expectation for the shortcomings of publishers.

 

[amigacooke]

I fully agree with you as a gamer that new content sooner is better than later. And frustration for some is an obvious byproduct. But it is very hard to seriously hold anyone accountable for something no one (except a minority of LEPers) has yet paid a single dollar for (unlike NMS original and very successful pre sales and sales on launch). I am afraid it is FDEV´s money, their resources, their risk and therefore their decision about how and when to release those "half truths".

I don't think NMS have released content which everyone has paid for and then withdrawn it.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Oh, also: My whole recent NMS experience started when I tried to get back into Elite because I was interested in Fleet Carriers, but when I saw how much I would have to grind to get them I was a bit disheartened. I thought about saying something, but the subreddit and the forums were chock full of people baying for Frontier's blood over a free update and I didn't want to contribute to that sort of entitled histrionics. So I just went and played NMS for a couple of weeks. It was actually really fun, I got a cool fleet carrier (freighter in NMS, they're much better than Elite implementation), set up some farms, got some good ships and a living ship... and then I realised that everything I wanted No Man's Sky to have to be better, Elite already had. I wanted a better flight model, better graphics, better sound, a greater feeling of presence, better combat, and missions that were more grounded. Playing No Man's Sky led me to realise that there were so many things about Elite that I loved but I didn't appreciate, and that what I wanted to do with my time was enjoy them, not worry about grinding credits for a fleet carrier. It was actually really freeing. Now I'm mining in Borann sometimes (actually talking to people when I do!), doing missions for the Federation other times, working on bringing my racing iCourier back up to snuff and flying it around just for the thrill of it, and playing CQC (and enjoying it! When I can find a game. Please let CQC earn ARX.) I'm having the time of my life in Elite and all I needed to achieve it was getting up close and personal with that other grass to see if it was really greener.

I have similar feelings. On the NMS thread I've posted a couple of times my wish for Hello Games to fork their code into a new game and change at least two main areas - do what CIG are trying to do with their high fidelity graphics, and what FDev have done with their galaxy simulation, stellar forge. Also improve physics and dial down the lifeforms quite a bit.

Hello Games are extremely capable and I believe they could do it, and what an awesome game it could be. They'd also be way ahead of the others since they already have base building, space legs, atmospheric planets, a capable proc-gen life form generator, etc.

 

[Nutter]

Fortunately, I have managed to not become engaged with such abject cynicism over what I might expect from the delivery of game content. I hail from the days that a game (initially) came on a cassette and what you had was all you were going to get...

But, that is my outlook and at least permits me to not be at all bothered if an 'update' is even delivered, when I get bored with any game, and ED is still just a game, I go play something else, no problem.

So for you, and your real life development team, eventually applies also? Odd that, what on earth is causing your delay, laziness? Incompetence? Poor management? Or any of the multitude of petty insults that are bandied around here? I certainly couldn't be a global pandemic that is causing all kinds of issues everywhere, surely?

Respect the Cassette days and when you had to deliver quality - how things have changed.

My delay is due to the outbreak (it's in the news) however FD Delays have persisted from inception and communication has been terrible for the last 3 years. I'm not giving insults, just facts.

 

[StuartGT]

My delay is due to the outbreak (it's in the news) however FD Delays have persisted from inception and communication has been terrible for the last 3 years. I'm not giving insults, just facts.

That sounds very hypocritical.

On schedule:

• 1.1
• 1.2
• 1.3
• 1.4
• 2.0
• 2.4
• 3.0
• 3.1
• 3.2
• 3.3
• April2019
• September2019
• January2020

Delayed:

• 2.1 by six weeks
• 2.2 by two months
• 2.3 by four months
• Fleet Carriers feature from 3.3 (Dec 2018), first to Dec 2019, now coming next month.
• Ice Planets v2 feature from 3.3 (Dec 2018), no new arrival date
• "Premium Content" (Dec 2018), now merged into New Era
• New Era (end of 2020), now coming Q1 2021

Coincidentally, FDev's feature delays from Dec 2018 all happened after the vast majority of Elite's devteam moved onto New Era's full production in Summer 2018.

Meanwhile, the New Era delay from Dec 2020 to Q1 2021 is due to the outbreak (it's in the news).

 

[Viajero]

I think you've failed to spot the parody of those who like to blame user expectation for the shortcomings of publishers.

Sometimes people actually use parodies to have their own cake and eat it, glad it does not seem to be the case here

I don't think NMS have released content which everyone has paid for and then withdrawn it.

I don´t disagree that topic can deserve its own detailed discussion (not sure it would be a slam dunk) but it sounds a bit like a goal post moving exercise though. The debate in this particular case here was very specific, comparing the kickstarter vision about atmos, space legs etc for which no one has paid yet (except minority of LEPers asuming it comes out) with the actual content paid for on pre-sale and launch sale but missing in NMS.

 

[Rat Catcher]

That sounds very hypocritical.

On schedule:

• 1.1
• 1.2
• 1.3
• 1.4
• 2.0
• 2.4
• 3.0
• 3.1
• 3.2
• 3.3
• April2019
• September2019
• January2020

Delayed:

• 2.1 by six weeks
• 2.2 by two months
• 2.3 by four months
• Fleet Carriers feature from 3.3 (Dec 2018), first to Dec 2019, now coming next month.
• Ice Planets v2 feature from 3.3 (Dec 2018), no new arrival date
• "Premium Content" (Dec 2018), now merged into New Era
• New Era (end of 2020), now coming Q1 2021

Coincidentally, FDev's feature delays from Dec 2018 all happened after the vast majority of Elite's devteam moved onto New Era's full production in Summer 2018.

Meanwhile, the New Era delay from Dec 2020 to Q1 2021 is due to the outbreak (it's in the news).

But those couldn't possibly be facts, could they?
If they are there appears to be more than one interpretation of fact, depending on how you view the game and its developers

 

[amigacooke]

I don´t disagree that topic can deserve its own detailed discussion (not sure it would be a slam dunk) but it sounds a bit like a goal post moving exercise though. The debate in this particular case here was very specific, comparing the kickstarter vision about atmos, space legs etc for which no one has paid yet (except minority of LEPers asuming it comes out) with the actual content paid for on pre-sale and launch sale but missing in NMS.

I agree Frontier made it very clear that landing on planets and Elite feet would come later. What they didn't make clear (very wisely if they wanted the money), was how long it was going to take, especially as other non-advertised features would be taking up development time.

By the way, 'minority of LEPers' is bad phrasing as it implies that only some have paid in advance, all have paid in advance. Though whether someone has paid or not is irrelevant as to whether or not they have been misled.

 

[Viajero]

I agree Frontier made it very clear that landing on planets and Elite feet would come later. What they didn't make clear (very wisely if they wanted the money), was how long it was going to take, especially as other non-advertised features would be taking up development time.

That is certainly one view. A different view (also directly reflected in public statements in the matter) can be based in the fact that the delivery of those elements was not even guaranteed and was subject to FDEV´s sole view on Elite Dangerous viability as a franchise to start with, and which was obviously unproven at the time. Now, given that actual delivery was not guaranteed I think it seems reasonable to expect that a date for that could not be offered either, even in rough estimate. Either way, it has always been FDEV resources, funding and risk for those additional elements, so also their decision.

By the way, 'minority of LEPers' is bad phrasing as it implies that only some have paid in advance, all have paid in advance. Though whether someone has paid or not is irrelevant as to whether or not they have been misled.

Heh, it looks you were actually believing your own parody. I do not make any distinction in the statement for types of LEPs. Minority of LEPs is simply making reference to the fact LEP units are a minority of total units sold. LEPers have paid in advance for all future content (including space legs and atmos if they come out). Non LEPers have not and therefore your "misled" is quite a severe moot point there: The issue of having paid or not for something is very relevant in the discussion of the related accountability. Especially when compared to the other offered example of NMS pre-sales and sales during launch where significant amounts of money actually changed hands for actually missing content.