General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Morbad]

Cannot verify source, but suggestion is that E protein is transplanted gene into the Sars Cov 2 virus, because of zero gene drift.

Does that suggest something other than a natural origin? I know recombinant viruses are a thing in nature.

"How can a country that has required you to take your shoes off at airport security for a 2001 foiled attempt without a single person hurt ......
be the same one that has no systematic plan to address >73,000 Americans dead, >1.2 million confirmed cases?"
Eric Topol

Terrorism is the perfect paper tiger, the perfect red herring, and the perfect scapegoat all rolled into one...a tool of near infinite utility when it comes to scaring the peasants into obedience and getting everyone else to buy your stuff. Disease, even bad ones, are so much more mundane; a disease that can be portrayed as mostly harming those who have already been written off by society isn't going to engender the same sort of visceral response as the infinitesimally small chance that someone may try to blow one up or crash the plane one is in. You can't put a face on a virus and it hard to hate things one cannot personify.

No doubt if someone could find actual evidence that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a research lab, it would be easier to get a coherent response out of the US federal authorities and the segment of the populace currently most resistant to mitigation. Were this something that could be even vaguely framed as a biological attack, the majority of those protesting mitigation efforts, or decrying the loss of their highly-expendable (at least for everyone else) employment, would be taking selfies while wearing american flag masks and exhoriting others to do their duty to 'beat back the Chinese plague', then happily isolate themselves while they bred the next generation of warriors for the quagmire to come. There is some strange psychological phenomena here, and probably everywhere, to some significant extent (just look at the level of outrage vs. griefers vs. hostile NPCs in the game forum), where someone hurting you is somehow way worse than something hurting you more...and it doesn't just influence reactions after the fact, but one's willingness to avoid foreseeable harm.

 

[Han_Zen]

Does that suggest something other than a natural origin? I know recombinant viruses are a thing in nature.



Terrorism is the perfect paper tiger, the perfect red herring, and the perfect scapegoat all rolled into one...a tool of near infinite utility when it comes to scaring the peasants into obedience and getting everyone else to buy your stuff. Disease, even bad ones, are so much more mundane; a disease that can be portrayed as mostly harming those who have already been written off by society isn't going to engender the same sort of visceral response as the infinitesimally small chance that someone may try to blow one up or crash the plane one is in. You can't put a face on a virus and it hard to hate things one cannot personify.

No doubt if someone could find actual evidence that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a research lab, it would be easier to get a coherent response out of the US federal authorities and the segment of the populace currently most resistant to mitigation. Were this something that could be even vaguely framed as a biological attack, the majority of those protesting mitigation efforts, or decrying the loss of their highly-expendable (at least for everyone else) employment, would be taking selfies while wearing american flag masks and exhoriting others to do their duty to 'beat back the Chinese plague', then happily isolate themselves while they bred the next generation of warriors for the quagmire to come. There is some strange psychological phenomena here, and probably everywhere, to some significant extent (just look at the level of outrage vs. griefers vs. hostile NPCs in the game forum), where someone hurting you is somehow way worse than something hurting you more...and it doesn't just influence reactions after the fact, but one's willingness to avoid foreseeable harm.

It's not really that interesting if the virus infected humans due to failed lab safety or failed food safety. Eider way it's negligence, that the Chinese authorities should take full responsibility for.
Mistakes do happen and can be forgiven, but responsibility needs to be taken.
Mistakes have been made many other places, after the outbreak. China is actively trying to make these mistakes look important, to cover the fact that they failed to prevent the virus to originate in the first place. It's all part of the propaganda war and who will have to pay, when this is over.

 

[Morbad]

It's not really that interesting if the virus infected humans due to failed lab safety or failed food safety. Eider way it's negligence, that the Chinese authorities should take full responsibility for.
Mistakes do happen and can be forgiven, but responsibility needs to be taken.
Mistakes have been made many other places, after the outbreak. China is actively trying to make these mistakes look important, to cover the fact that they failed to prevent the virus to originate in the first place. It's all part of the propaganda war and who will have to pay, when this is over.

China is never going to take meaningful responsibility and this threat may well never end. Oh, COVID-19 may fade into history, but this is not going to be the last coronavirus outbreak to start in China.

And we're all going to pay.

Edit: I also want to reiterate that it's still important to know exactly where SARS-CoV-2 came from, not to assign blame, but from a purely epidemiological perspective, so we can solve this problem and be better prepared to deal with the next.

Being able to hold someone accountable--if only to raise awareness of the risks of relying on them, to do what they are unwilling or incapable of doing, to protect global health--would be a plus, but is not the overriding concern of the moment.

 

[Synkreto]

It's not really that interesting if the virus infected humans due to failed lab safety or failed food safety. Eider way it's negligence, that the Chinese authorities should take full responsibility for.
Mistakes do happen and can be forgiven, but responsibility needs to be taken.
Mistakes have been made many other places, after the outbreak. China is actively trying to make these mistakes look important, to cover the fact that they failed to prevent the virus to originate in the first place. It's all part of the propaganda war and who will have to pay, when this is over.

What do you mean "who will have to pay.." ? The world is paying for this, already.

Where does the notion come from that "someone" or "some government" will ultimately be held responsible for this mess, and be made to pay ?
And, WHY does it come up NOW ?

 

[Oldviboy]

It's not really that interesting if the virus infected humans due to failed lab safety or failed food safety. Eider way it's negligence, that the Chinese authorities should take full responsibility for.
Mistakes do happen and can be forgiven, but responsibility needs to be taken.
Mistakes have been made many other places, after the outbreak. China is actively trying to make these mistakes look important, to cover the fact that they failed to prevent the virus to originate in the first place. It's all part of the propaganda war and who will have to pay, when this is over.

will pay once:
Spain, among other European countries, pay for the genocide they committed in the south of the American continent by transporting many of their diseases, or when a certain country pays for the disaster caused by certain bombs that to this day still have consequences in Thousands of civilians, or when, whoever, pays for the Chernobyl disaster that continues to affect thousands of people as well, or which country will pay for the millions of victims of HIV or the "Spanish" flu? Why would China have to pay for anything?

 

[Stealthie]

What do you mean "who will have to pay.." ? The world is paying for this, already.

I get the impression that some people/groups are suggesting that China literally pay for the harm they're responsible for causing.

Not entirely sure that's something which would be a productive endeavor, mind you.
I mean, even if such an assertion was justified, it's probably worth looking at the big picture.
Do we really want to create a situation where countries are encouraged to hide and obfuscate stuff like this for fear of future economic repercussions?

Thing is, there are some extremist groups (which I'll avoid naming for fear of getting another warning for "political discussion" ) who have an elevated sense of self-loathing and who think various historical injustices should be compensated and it seems like this "China should pay!!!" rhetoric is a dog-whistle to that mentality.

This is why I tend to think that the longer something goes on, the less you can take information about it at face-value.
As people have time to think about stuff, they try to find ways to politicise it to suit their own agendas.

 

[Han_Zen]

will pay once:
Spain, among other European countries, pay for the genocide they committed in the south of the American continent by transporting many of their diseases, or when a certain country pays for the disaster caused by certain bombs that to this day still have consequences in Thousands of civilians, or when, whoever, pays for the Chernobyl disaster that continues to affect thousands of people as well, or which country will pay for the millions of victims of HIV or the "Spanish" flu? Why would China have to pay for anything?

There will probably not be a trial and pay of reparations. Some will sue China, but I don't think that worries them much. What China fear, is loss of good will on the international stage. If the notion that they are inept at controlling simple things in their own society spreads, it will mean less business. If foreign companies chooses Korea, Japan, Taiwan and India ahead of China for investments, it's bad news for a country that is run like a corporation.
This is what the propaganda war is about. China has already had significant decline in their economy, this year. If they are to achieve their 8% yearly goal growth anytime soon, they need to win that war.

 

[Oldviboy]

I get the impression that some people/groups are suggesting that China literally pay for the harm they're responsible for causing.

Not entirely sure that's something which would be a productive endeavor, mind you.
I mean, even if such an assertion was justified, it's probably worth looking at the big picture.
Do we really want to create a situation where countries are encouraged to hide and obfuscate stuff like this for fear of future economic repercussions?

Thing is, there are some extremist groups (which I'll avoid naming for fear of getting another warning for "political discussion" ) who have an elevated sense of self-loathing and who think various historical injustices should be compensated and it seems like this "China should pay!!!" rhetoric is a dog-whistle to that mentality.

This is why I tend to think that the longer something goes on, the less you can take information about it at face-value.
As people have time to think about stuff, they try to find ways to politicise it to suit their own agendas.

I don't know what you mean, but if we talk about paying, me and millions of people are paying for the deprivation of liberty, in many aspects of life, from a certain date and due to the paranoia of a country.
Now that same country is demanding freedoms for not being able to last 2 * months in their bunkers *.

China at least had the decency to warn us to stay in our houses, are you really talking to me about hiding information?
To this day, I think that everyone knows who is the leading country in that.

 

[Oldviboy]

There will probably not be a trial and pay of reparations. Some will sue China, but I don't think that worries them much. What China fear, is loss of good will on the international stage. If the notion that they are inept at controlling simple things in their own society spreads, it will mean less business. If foreign companies chooses Korea, Japan, Taiwan and India ahead of China for investments, it's bad news for a country that is run like a corporation.
This is what the propaganda war is about. China has already had significant decline in their economy, this year. If they are to achieve their 8% yearly goal growth anytime soon, they need to win that war.

A thousand-year-old and hard-working country like China ,is trembling at these claims.

 

[Stealthie]

I don't know what you mean, but if we talk about paying, me and millions of people are paying for the deprivation of liberty, in many aspects of life, from a certain date and due to the paranoia of a country.
Now that same country is demanding freedoms for not being able to last 2 * months in their bunkers *.

China at least had the decency to warn us to stay in our houses, are you really talking to me about hiding information?
To this day, I think that everyone knows who is the leading country in that.

I genuinely have no idea what you mean by this, what you're implying or what you're asking for.

 

[Oldviboy]

I get the impression that some people/groups are suggesting that China literally pay for the harm they're responsible for causing.

Do we really want to create a situation where countries are encouraged to hide and obfuscate stuff like this for fear of future economic repercussions?

about countries responsible for something or that should pay for something and those things,u know.

(I really don't know if you were pointing to China or something, sorry if I was wrong, but I'm tired of always people being able to point always the same countries, but not others).

 

[Stealthie]

about countries responsible for something or that should pay for something and those things,u know.

Still not sure what you're talking about TBH.

Regarding C19, specifically, if you're literally talking about making China pay compensation then, in legal terms, it'd probably be the biggest train-wreck in legal history.
Equally, if you sought to argue that some other government was negligent in their response to C19 then it'd be likely that government's defence would be to blame China.

Maybe you could sue god for creating bats that carry nasty diseases?

 

[Oldviboy]

Still not sure what you're talking about TBH.

Regarding C19, specifically, if you're literally talking about making China pay compensation then, in legal terms, it'd probably be the biggest train-wreck in legal history.
Equally, if you sought to argue that some other government was negligent in their response to C19 then it'd be likely that government's defence would be to blame China.

Maybe you could sue god for creating bats that carry nasty diseases?

I think we have not understood each other, was not me who said that China should pay for this virus.

 

[Synkreto]

There will probably not be a trial and pay of reparations. Some will sue China, but I don't think that worries them much. What China fear, is loss of good will on the international stage. If the notion that they are inept at controlling simple things in their own society spreads, it will mean less business. If foreign companies chooses Korea, Japan, Taiwan and India ahead of China for investments, it's bad news for a country that is run like a corporation.
This is what the propaganda war is about. China has already had significant decline in their economy, this year. If they are to achieve their 8% yearly goal growth anytime soon, they need to win that war.

Maybe you missed the bell, and the whistle, and the coffins, and all the wake-up-moments "industrialized, civilized, western" Nations got delivered to their doorsteps during these past few months, so I will state a few things for your convenience :

• China has been sweatshop, warehouse and distribution centre for many of those nations I mentioned for a while now;
• some boring global emergency suddenly made very apparent that the system does not really work when a Pandemic hits ;
• more and more nations are not only calling for, but already putting in place action to be more self sufficient in the future, in many very important things and products ;
• even food supply becomes more and more a concern in the "richer" countries ;

Expect "global economy" to change drastically . Well, in fact it is changing already...

 

[Stealthie]

Maybe you missed the bell, and the whistle, and the coffins, and all the wake-up-moments "industrilazed, civilized, western" Nations got delivered to their doorsteps during these past few months, so I will state a few things for your convenience :

• China has been sweatshop, warehouse and distribution centre for many of those nations I mentioned for a while now;
• some boring global emergency suddenly made very apparent that the system does not really work when a Pandemic hits ;
• more and more nations are not only calling for, but already putting in place action to be more self sufficien in the future, in many very important things and products ;
• even food suuply becomes more and more a concern in the "richer" countries ;

Expect "global economy" to change drastically . Well, in fact it is changing already...

Seems like that was the point Han_Zen was making; China is one of the places we go to for our cheap stuff so it's in their interests to try an win the "PR war" related to C19 in order to retain the trust of the Western world.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if there are any fundamental changes as a result of this.
Sure, governments will make noises about stricter controls of various things (and their opponents will accuse them of racism, nationalism and isolationism) and they might even make some practical changes such as increasing stocks of medical equipment (which they'll buy from countries like China) but complacency will lead to an overall resumption of the status quo.

It's just the way things are.
In the same way that it'd be nice if individuals could prepare optimally for an emergency but simply can't afford the expense, the same thing applies on a national level too.

 

[lysan]

Maybe you missed the bell, and the whistle, and the coffins, and all the wake-up-moments "industrilazed, civilized, western" Nations got delivered to their doorsteps during these past few months, so I will state a few things for your convenience :

• China has been sweatshop, warehouse and distribution centre for many of those nations I mentioned for a while now;
• some boring global emergency suddenly made very apparent that the system does not really work when a Pandemic hits ;
• more and more nations are not only calling for, but already putting in place action to be more self sufficien in the future, in many very important things and products ;
• even food suuply becomes more and more a concern in the "richer" countries ;

Expect "global economy" to change drastically . Well, in fact it is changing already...

And that is good, it’s good for the country and it’s good for the local communities. Amen sweeeeeet baby Jesus!

 

[Han_Zen]

Maybe you missed the bell, and the whistle, and the coffins, and all the wake-up-moments "industrilazed, civilized, western" Nations got delivered to their doorsteps during these past few months, so I will state a few things for your convenience :

• China has been sweatshop, warehouse and distribution centre for many of those nations I mentioned for a while now;
• some boring global emergency suddenly made very apparent that the system does not really work when a Pandemic hits ;
• more and more nations are not only calling for, but already putting in place action to be more self sufficien in the future, in many very important things and products ;
• even food suuply becomes more and more a concern in the "richer" countries ;

Expect "global economy" to change drastically . Well, in fact it is changing already...

This is exactly what China does not want to happen. Nations becoming more self sufficient, is the last thing they want. When you are the words sub supplier, you don't wan't to see everyone turning their attention back home.
They need to convince the world that everything can go back to the way it was, and that all the problems that the epidemic have caused happened because we didn't do as they told us.

 

[Synkreto]

Seems like that was the point Han_Zen was making; China is one of the places we go to for our cheap stuff so it's in their interests to try an win the "PR war" related to C19 in order to retain the trust of the Western world.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if there are any fundamental changes as a result of this.
Sure, governments will make noises about stricter controls of various things (and their opponents will accuse them of racism, nationalism and isolationism) and they might even make some practical changes such as increasing stocks of medical equipment (which they'll buy from countries like China) but complacency will lead to an overall resumption of the status quo.

It's just the way things are.
In the same way that it'd be nice if individuals could prepare optimally for an emergency but simply can't afford the expense, the same thing applies on a national level too.

China does not really NEED the trust of the "Western world" ( from their point of view, depending on where they look, that is most of the world btw., so specifics please ? ) .
China OWNs quite a lot of stuff in nations believing otherwise . China is participating in OilTrade based on currency not being Us$, in some cases not even based on currency, but goods exchange . China is starting to turn Africa into "China's China" for a while now . Is it STILL not apparent that China was already playing the "long Game" when in the 70/80s, everyone started to think it was such a great Idea to start outsourcing stuff to China ? I thought the penny dropped around early 90s the latest...

 

[Synkreto]

This is exactly what China does not want to happen. Nations becoming more self sufficient, is the last thing they want. When you are the words sub supplier, you don't wan't to see everyone turning their attention back home.
They need to convince the world that everything can go back to the way it was, and that all the problems that the epidemic have caused happened because we didn't do as they told us.

There is enough of the rest of the World as potential customer when the 800million people who think they ARE the World stop buying from China...more than enough...

 

[Stealthie]

China does not really NEED the trust of the "Western world" ( from their point of view, depending on where they look, that is most of the world btw., so specifics please ? ) .
China OWNs quite a lot of stuff in nations believing otherwise . China is participating in OilTrade based on currency not being Us$, in some cases not even based on currency, but goods exchange . China is starting to turn Africa into "China's China" for a while now . Is it STILL not apparent that China was already playing the "long Game" when in the 70/80s, everyone started to think it was such a great Idea to start outsourcing stuff to China ? I thought the penny dropped around early 90s the latest...

That's quite a mix of the obvious and the cryptic.

Do you have a point?

Surely you're not suggesting that China isn't really interested in retaining it's status as a supplier to the Western world?