General / Off-Topic The safest place

[ianw]

Trying to separate the human and economic costs is futile; one implies the other. The same measures that would have protected public health would also have protected economies. The failure to properly prepare for and promptly contain an outbreak costs lives and damages economies by mandating expensive trade offs later.

COVID-19 is going to hurt, and it's mostly going to hurt because people and their governments failed, and are continuing to fail, to take an obvious threat seriously.



Yeah, cretins might be forgiven for being stupid, reckless, threats to public health, but police should know better.

Maintaining order and continuing to present a deterrent to unacceptable behavior has value, but the way they've chosen to go about doing so undermines these same goals. Dispersing crowds by sending in unprotected police to physically cart people away is absurd in a situation like this.

Without knowing the situation on the ground and whatever rules of engagement were in place it's difficult to say whether arrests were justified.

That said it doesn't seem like a great idea to get up close and personal with a bunch of people who may or may not be asymptomatic/presypmtomatic.

But it seems to me the police are in an impossible situation. They apparently tried to issue fines but people refused to give their names/co-operate.

The Police probably don't have PPE given that anecdotally some NHS and care homes apparently still don't. And in any case flimsy PPE would be practically useless in an operational physically confrontational situation as much as would be maintaining a safe distance.

So what do they do, just back off? Do they just give up arresting people and let them do what they want?

Coz you can bet if they did the same people saying that they shouldn't have to follow the rules if the police don't appear to be (conveniently ignoring the obvious reasons why) would also be complaining that they should also be allowed to ignore the rules and congregate in large numbers in the park because the protesters do and the police don't stop them.

It's not safe to be using/working in public transport with crowds of people, it's not safe to be policing/in crowds of people but there is a difference between those who have to because of their job and those that choose to because freedom or whatever.

I can sympathise with some of the reasons behind the protests but no so much

Spoiler: someone touting this

using a megaphone to declare that 5G and the coronavirus pandemic were linked and branding the pandemic as a “pack of lies to brainwash you and keep you in order”.

He also said “vaccination is not necessary” and that “5G towers will be installed everywhere”, adding: “5G enhances anyone who’s got illness from Covid, so they work together.”

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Its one thing to acknowledge a Pandemic... and another thing to infringe upon innocent gatherings...
so is it better to live in Fear and have innocent peoples freedoms stripped?? or should we stand for up for innocent people??

It is better not to get sick.

I am sure you turn off your stove at night. Because fire is bad. But you do not "live in Fear" of fire. Nor is your "freedom to leave it on" infringed. You could burn the house down if you wanted to. But why?

It is a simple rational choice, to live safer. To protect the people round you.

The protestors spreading the illness are NOT victims. (The ones in hospital are. ) They do not percieve the danger. Probably because of bad information. Therefore their behaviour is illogical, and endangers everybody, including us potentially.

If tear gas does not immediately disperse them (no masks, ha ha ha) I would go with tazers. No incarceration, of course. That would be counterproductive.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

using a megaphone to declare that 5G and the coronavirus pandemic were linked and branding the pandemic as a “pack of lies to brainwash you and keep you in order”.

He also said “vaccination is not necessary” and that “5G towers will be installed everywhere”, adding: “5G enhances anyone who’s got illness from Covid, so they work together.”

Oh yeah, I know that guy. He used to post here.

 

[Morbad]

So what do they do, just back off? Do they just give up arresting people and let them do what they want?

Disperse people in a manner more conducive to social distancing than sending unprotected officers into a melee. There are plenty of possible crowd control methods that would probably have been just as effective--water cannon, for example--as entering into close physical contact to drag protesters off to where they will be in close physical contact with many more people.

I'm not at all sympathetic with most of these protesters (concern for one's freedom of assembly and movement is rational, but responding with ignorant or fabricated claims and behavior that puts others at risk is not), but police should be setting an example and be held to higher standards, rather than exacerbating the very conditions restrictions are supposed to mitigate. If correct PPE cannot be secured for police (for both their own protection and that of anyone they may have to disperse or detain), then police should be maintaining distance unless there are lives in clear and immediate danger...otherwise they become another risk vector.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

In what looks more like a scene from a cops-and-robbers cartoon, this week police in the northern city of Chandigarh tweeted a video of an officer demonstrating how to use a 6-foot pole with a two-pronged claw at the end to detain a suspect. The officer, wearing a surgical mask, clamps the device around a man's waist and forces him into a pickup truck.

Catchpoles.
Old idea, but they really work.

 

[ianw]

Oh yeah, I know that guy. He used to post here.

Actually it was one of the guys at the protest in Hyde Park!

 

[ianw]

Disperse people in a manner more conducive to social distancing than sending unprotected officers into a melee. There are plenty of possible crowd control methods that would probably have been just as effective--water cannon, for example--as entering into close physical contact to drag protesters off to where they will be in close physical contact with many more people.

I'm not at all sympathetic with most of these protesters (concern for one's freedom of assembly and movement is rational, but responding with ignorant or fabricated claims and behavior that puts others at risk is not), but police should be setting an example and be held to higher standards, rather than exacerbating the very conditions restrictions are supposed to mitigate. If correct PPE cannot be secured for police (for both their own protection and that of anyone they may have to disperse or detain), then police should be maintaining distance unless there are lives in clear and immediate danger...otherwise they become another risk vector.

NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

Catchpoles.
Old idea, but they really work.

Steady on chaps, this is England!

Sure both of those ideas would work but that sort of thing simply doesn't fly here. I don't think they even have water cannons or they got mothballed or something.

 

[Morbad]

Sure both of those ideas would work but that sort of thing simply doesn't fly here.

But multiplying the effect if stupidity by having unprotected officers bodily restrain and escort people off to detainment for violating social distancing restrictions does?

I'm used to police not being the good guys, or particularly smart, but this seems pretty silly to me.

I don't think they even have water cannons or they got mothballed or something.

Fire trucks are the the same thing.

 

[Ian Skippy]

A very local update: my university got new guidelines after consulting with the government. Until mid july I'm to work from home unless I really absolutely have to come to the campus. From mid july to August I can come to campus once a week, if there is a demonstrably significant benefit to my work. Everyone planning to come must ask permission and clarify the reason. A number of people will be selected, only one person per office, only offices with proper ventilation allowed, only hallways at least 7ft wide allowed to be used and only one person allowed in the break room at any given time. Starting from August we keep the same rules but up to two days a week. This will be the 'new norm' until further notice.

Got no real reason to be on campus beyond it being fun to see colleagues, so working from home it'll be for the forseeable future.

 

[Synkreto]

A very local update: my university got new guidelines after consulting with the government. Until mid july I'm to work from home unless I really absolutely have to come to the campus. From mid july to August I can come to campus once a week, if there is a demonstrably significant benefit to my work. Everyone planning to come must ask permission and clarify the reason. A number of people will be selected, only one person per office, only offices with proper ventilation allowed, only hallways at least 7ft wide allowed to be used and only one person allowed in the break room at any given time. Starting from August we keep the same rules but up to two days a week. This will be the 'new norm' until further notice.

Got no real reason to be on campus beyond it being fun to see colleagues, so working from home it'll be for the forseeable future.

I saw a report I think yesterday where Belgian Woman in charge visited a hospital and was greeted by a long doubleline of Health Pros turning their backs to their Car as it passed...what was that about ?

 

[Ian Skippy]

I saw a report I think yesterday where Belgian Woman in charge visited a hospital and was greeted by a long doubleline of Health Pros turning their backs to their Car as it passed...what was that about ?

It was a protest against staff shortage, budget cuts and low wages. Remember Belgium has a strike culture, the visit was COVID19 related but the protest itself was to air more general grievances. I don't know the details so have no opinion on whether it was justified or not.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

I don't know the details so have no opinion on whether it was justified or not.

From BBC:

Belgium's government has been criticised for its handling of the coronavirus pandemic and the country's high mortality rate.
The PM has previously suggested that Belgium may be over-reporting the actual number of cases.

It's the old "I am doing great, ignore the numbers, those doctors can't count" turn your back story.

 

[Ian Skippy]

From BBC:


It's the old "I am doing great, ignore the numbers, those doctors can't count" turn your back story.

The thing is though that she is correct: Belgium has demonstrably been over-reporting cases. From the start Belgium has had a far more lenient policy as to when to assume a casualty a COVID19 casualty. For example, reported cases and fatalities is FAR higher than Netherlands, but excess mortality is lower. When you look at excess mortality and population density instead of reported cases you get a totally different story.

I also not sure what people wanted the government to do: they initiated far more severe restrictions, and did so sooner, than many other countries. And when they did so many argued the government was exaggerating. Retrospectively arguing they should have done more rings a bit hollow to me.

In any case, the protest was not about that. If the BBC suggests that they are simply wrong.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Perhaps follow up reports can clarify it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Perhaps follow up reports can clarify it.

For sure, and it's an ongoing process. But for example: https://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/news/graph-excess-mortality/

When you in contrast look at the Netherlands, you'll see 'average mortality' + 'covid fatalities' is nowhere near total fatalities. To my knowledge and with the current data Belgium is simply the only western country making very liberal estimates above the confirmed cases, which seems to result in the most accurate numbers. So in other words, our government isn't arguing doctors can't count, we're arguing our doctors are estimating total impact better than anyone else.

Really, medical staff is not upset with this. It's about wages, extended mandatory shifts, overtime due to staff shortage and such. In short they are asking for the resources and conditions to do their job well.

 

[6xes]

It is better not to get sick.

I am sure you turn off your stove at night. Because fire is bad. But you do not "live in Fear" of fire. Nor is your "freedom to leave it on" infringed. You could burn the house down if you wanted to. But why?

It is a simple rational choice, to live safer. To protect the people round you.

The protestors spreading the illness are NOT victims. (The ones in hospital are. ) They do not percieve the danger. Probably because of bad information. Therefore their behaviour is illogical, and endangers everybody, including us potentially.

If tear gas does not immediately disperse them (no masks, ha ha ha) I would go with tazers. No incarceration, of course. That would be counterproductive.

I find your response interesting to say the least...
you point out a comparison of stoves and a resulting fire.. The liberty of turning off stoves is not being taken away!!! so no adequate comparison can be made...
and again you point out the protestors are not victims... yet they should have their rights infringed upon.... becos of sick people who are being treated?? your logic and reasoning have no validity..
..afterall people get sick everyday.. do we therefore take away rights of citizens becos people become sick?? no we dont nor should we...

your last sentence surely should worry some people.... afterall if the logic by your way of thinking is if they dont comply TASER THEM!! really?? REALLY?? now we are advocating oppressive measures to the point of violence?? that is the direction of your thinking!!

i wonder.. when MANY people begin to challenge the Lockdown directives... will you stand with them??? or with the Authorities who impose a law to slowly wittle your rights away!!
Some realities facing Germany!!

 

[Sysmon]

I find your response interesting to say the least...
you point out a comparison of stoves and a resulting fire.. The liberty of turning off stoves is not being taken away!!! so no adequate comparison can be made...
and again you point out the protestors are not victims... yet they should have their rights infringed upon.... becos of sick people who are being treated?? your logic and reasoning have no validity..
..afterall people get sick everyday.. do we therefore take away rights of citizens becos people become sick?? no we dont nor should we...

your last sentence surely should worry some people.... afterall if the logic by your way of thinking is if they dont comply TASER THEM!! really?? REALLY?? now we are advocating oppressive measures to the point of violence?? that is the direction of your thinking!!

i wonder.. when MANY people begin to challenge the Lockdown directives... will you stand with them??? or with the Authorities who impose a law to slowly wittle your rights away!!
Some realities facing Germany!!

View attachment 173571View attachment 173573

Well, we do take precautions against starting fires, just as we take precautions against getting sick. Now we have to take some of those precautions more seriously than we used to.

Governments will need measures to step in when such precautions are not being taken or not happening fast enough. The interesting bit is how long it will take for the same governments to let go of their extraordinary emergency powers after the treat has been deemed insignificant again.

S

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Things are scaling down locally in Trinidad.

Briefings have been cut back to 3/week.
Phase 2 reopening was moved back 2 days, ahead of schedule.
We have one case recovering still in hospital. No new cases for weeks.

I'm optimistic that things are at a very low risk now.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Actually it was one of the guys at the protest in Hyde Park!

Heh, just being facetious.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

you point out a comparison of stoves and a resulting fire.. The liberty of turning off stoves is not being taken away!!! so no adequate comparison can be made...
and again you point out the protestors are not victims... yet they should have their rights infringed upon.... becos of sick people who are being treated?? your logic and reasoning have no validity..
..afterall people get sick everyday.. do we therefore take away rights of citizens becos people become sick?? no we dont nor should we...

your last sentence surely should worry some people.... afterall if the logic by your way of thinking is if they dont comply TASER THEM!! really?? REALLY?? now we are advocating oppressive measures to the point of violence?? that is the direction of your thinking!!

I cannot make this any simpler.

Understand this much- I hope you never have to find out just WHY this is serious. I hope it misses you, your friends and your family.
I hope you have the luxury of the ignorance you hold so dear for a long time in safety.

Because like those protestors, you can only learn by direct personal experience. And I do not want that.
Cheers and back to your ignored status. We cannot communicate. Over and out.