VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[epoch5]

I have paid a little over $3000.00 on VR equipment never dreamed that FD would yank the rug out from under me. But it seems they are.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Right, my "cool starry bra".
Inspired by the squabbling in this thread, I thought I'd see what the fuss was all about, but was unwilling to shell out a grand or more for the privilege, so given that I have a pretty decent android phone I shelled out the grand total of about 40 nicker for the necessary software and one of those cheapo "stick your phone in this" headsets.
After a bit of p155ing about I've managed to get Elite running in VR at about 30fps. I can certainly see why VR afficionados with better kit would be unwilling to lose that experience.
Perhaps more salient to the legs point, I've also been playing "Alien: isolation" in VR using motherVR. It's a first person mouse and keyboard (or controller) experience (I bound the keyboard commands to my throttle). There's a little nausea, probably in part because I'm new to VR, but it still works pretty damned well, and I can really see no reason why Odyssey with that level of VR support would not do very, very well. I wouldn't expect it to take that much dev time, either.
Just my 2c.

Indeed and to be fair as amazing as alien isolation is in VR technically it is really limited. Nibre the guy who made the mod has no access to source code and is instead doing what he can with an ancient VR build which was ditched years ago .
That said he apparently has made some serious progress with Halo Reach in VR, then there is doom BFG in VR, NMS in VR and serious Sam vr (the last 2 not only are 1st person but are also multiplayer and offer a mix of flat screen and vr PvP ).
It CAN be done and it HAS been done already...... It's about whether it is worth FDs time doing it. They think it isnt, it is up to those who think it is to vote with their wallet and to make enough fuss on social media and what not (politely) to try to make FD reconsider - like they have multiple times in the past such as ship transfer, limited scanning golf balls and various balance issues such as the roulette wheel in engineers and fleet carrier costs.

 

[VR Golgot]

Right, my "cool starry bra".
Inspired by the squabbling in this thread, I thought I'd see what the fuss was all about, but was unwilling to shell out a grand or more for the privilege, so given that I have a pretty decent android phone I shelled out the grand total of about 40 nicker for the necessary software and one of those cheapo "stick your phone in this" headsets.
After a bit of p155ing about I've managed to get Elite running in VR at about 30fps. I can certainly see why VR afficionados with better kit would be unwilling to lose that experience.
Perhaps more salient to the legs point, I've also been playing "Alien: isolation" in VR using motherVR. It's a first person mouse and keyboard (or controller) experience (I bound the keyboard commands to my throttle). There's a little nausea, probably in part because I'm new to VR, but it still works pretty damned well, and I can really see no reason why Odyssey with that level of VR support would not do very, very well. I wouldn't expect it to take that much dev time, either.
Just my 2c.

Glad you're enjoying it

Phone VR is kind of just a glimpse though. (One key missing element is the 6 degrees of freedom. Being able to move your head freely within the scene, not just turn it, really fires up some extra bits of your lizard brain and convinces you you're 'within the scene' etc )

I've never actually looked into whether phone VR has the same nausea issues as the fancy pants sets. I could imagine it not being quite the same. Aside from stuff like bigger FOV in the main headsets (movement in your periphery is one potential trigger), a key nausea aspect seems to stem from your mind being majorly convinced that the game scene is a real structural environment. (If you move within that scene in a way that it knows you're not actually moving, especially when rotating, it can take that as a sign that you've been poisoned... and that it needs to get that poison out of you . That's one theory anyway.)

Also you could just be one of the '20%' who don't get much or any nausea from the off

 

[Deleted member 121570]

Right, my "cool starry bra".
Inspired by the squabbling in this thread, I thought I'd see what the fuss was all about, but was unwilling to shell out a grand or more for the privilege, so given that I have a pretty decent android phone I shelled out the grand total of about 40 nicker for the necessary software and one of those cheapo "stick your phone in this" headsets.
After a bit of p155ing about I've managed to get Elite running in VR at about 30fps. I can certainly see why VR afficionados with better kit would be unwilling to lose that experience.
Perhaps more salient to the legs point, I've also been playing "Alien: isolation" in VR using motherVR. It's a first person mouse and keyboard (or controller) experience (I bound the keyboard commands to my throttle). There's a little nausea, probably in part because I'm new to VR, but it still works pretty damned well, and I can really see no reason why Odyssey with that level of VR support would not do very, very well. I wouldn't expect it to take that much dev time, either.
Just my 2c.

Props to you for taking the time to try it out and give it a go with what you had available. That's awesome indeed, and it's great to hear you've seen what we're all on about
Thanks for the support dude.

 

[VR Murgle]

I reckon the core issues is that classic stick & K/M locomotion cause nausea for lots of VR players.

Which is something for which there are several, at this point well know, methods that can be implemented to reduce the risk.

Also it is possible to get used to stick or keyboard and mouse locomotion in VR,I have and I've suffered from motion sickness my whole life!

So please, please stop using this non argument, yes nausea is an issue when using VR for the first time but whether you get your VR legs in E: D or in some other game is irrelevant. If people really want to get into VR they'll look at motion sickness as an obstacle to overcome and find a way to do so. I can't imagine anyone buy a HMD without doing at least a little bit of research and if you do you will find something about motion sickness so you will be prepared and with a bit more research you can find out howto deal with the problem.
I've used a gamepad with smooth locomotion in Skyrim VR, Doom VFR, The Solus project, Adrift, Detached, Borderlands 2 VR, Hellblade, Aery and Subnautica. And I've used KB+M in NMS.

If motion sickness is their only reason or even one of the reasons for not supporting VR in Odyssey then is just a big, steaming pile of bovine excrement.

 

[VR Murgle]

For VR sales? For sure . But VR sales will still be a relatively small slice of the pie, and doubtless eclipsed by the sales to flatscreeners, + new flatscreeners attracted by the leggy format. (So is there really an incentive for them to earn that smaller slice, keep vets on board, but get negative reviews from new sign ups, damaging the broader launch's perception?)

I don't think SW Squadron is really an 'either / or' competitor for them. It's a slimmish offering, focused on its arena modes for longevity, coming out in early Q4 vs their Q1 launch. (And I'm not sure there even is a space-niche VR FPS on the horizon for around Q1 2021 is there?)

You assume noobs would jump into VR without even the slightest research, just buy an expensive HMD, and be completely surprised if they experience nausea.
Dirt rally 2 marks the stages with a lil symbol to indicate the risk of motion sickness, I'm sure Frontier could manage something similar on the inevitable loading sreen that comes before the leggy experience, maybe even a warning when you load the VR version explaining motion sickness and what to do when you experience it.

 

[VR Murgle]

Glad you're enjoying it

Phone VR is kind of just a glimpse though. (One key missing element is the 6 degrees of freedom. Being able to move your head freely within the scene, not just turn it, really fires up some extra bits of your lizard brain and convinces you you're 'within the scene' etc )

I've never actually looked into whether phone VR has the same nausea issues as the fancy pants sets. I could imagine it not being quite the same. Aside from stuff like bigger FOV in the main headsets (movement in your periphery is one potential trigger), a key nausea aspect seems to stem from your mind being majorly convinced that the game scene is a real structural environment. (If you move within that scene in a way that it knows you're not actually moving, especially when rotating, it can take that as a sign that you've been poisoned... and that it needs to get that poison out of you . That's one theory anyway.)

Also you could just be one of the '20%' who don't get much or any nausea from the off

Actually, low inconsistent frame rates are a bigger problem. Frame skipping works really really vomit inducing Personally I've noticed a vast improvement since I've upgraded to an RTX 2080 Super.

Edit: If you can VR at 30 frames you doing oke.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Just a general question: if FD are indeed using the Outsider as a template, how would you do VR in that? I'm guessing that FD want legs to be visible to drive Holo Me / clothes Warframe style. The video hints at a 3rd person view with the aiming scene, would that be disorienting in VR?

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Right, my "cool starry bra".
Inspired by the squabbling in this thread, I thought I'd see what the fuss was all about, but was unwilling to shell out a grand or more for the privilege, so given that I have a pretty decent android phone I shelled out the grand total of about 40 nicker for the necessary software and one of those cheapo "stick your phone in this" headsets.
There's a little nausea, probably in part because I'm new to VR, but it still works pretty damned well, and I can really see no reason why Odyssey with that level of VR support would not do very, very well. I wouldn't expect it to take that much dev time, either.
Just my 2c.

Just so you know, mobile VR is horrible and actually discourages people from real VR. Also you don't need a grand, look into Samsung Odyssey+, Oculus rift S (if your IPD is not far from 64). You can get into VR for around $200 on some sales.

 

[VR Golgot]

Which is something for which there are several, at this point well know, methods that can be implemented to reduce the risk.

Sure, but the context there was doing a basic stick / WASD only, where the options for nausea reduction are much more limited. (I mentioned some key locomotion options available, and their issues).

Also it is possible to get used to stick or keyboard and mouse locomotion in VR,I have and I've suffered from motion sickness my whole life!

Sure. Me too.

That doesn’t change the fact that developers don’t want their new users to experience an excess of discomfort. It’s a bad game experience. It’s bad business.

This is totally amply demonstrated by the fact that no AA+ VR release with first-person walking uses classic stick motion or WASD alone.

They may offer it amongst a spread of options. But never as the sole locomotion options.

So please, please stop using this non argument,

Nope. Please demonstrate the ubiquity of console controller / WASD motion alone in quality ‘walking’ PCVR games.

You can’t. Because it doesn’t happen.

Because game developers care about nausea, even if you don’t.

So please stop with your non-argument

 

[VR Golgot]

You assume noobs would jump into VR without even the slightest research, just buy an expensive HMD, and be completely surprised if they experience nausea.
Dirt rally 2 marks the stages with a lil symbol to indicate the risk of motion sickness, I'm sure Frontier could manage something similar on the inevitable loading sreen that comes before the leggy experience, maybe even a warning when you load the VR version explaining motion sickness and what to do when you experience it.

Oh sure, they could add warnings:

"Hi noob. If you’re one of the 80% who experience nausea when first using VR, you may experience cumulative nausea every time you turn. If you experience nausea, please don’t turn."

That’d be the situation under the 'let them use smooth turning' basic locomotion you’re advocating anyway

Warnings aren’t a fix in themselves.

 

[VR Murgle]

Sure, but the context there was doing a basic stick / WASD only, where the options for nausea reduction are much more limited. (I mentioned some key locomotion options available, and their issues).




Sure. Me too.

That doesn’t change the fact that developers don’t want their new users to experience an excess of discomfort. It’s a bad game experience. It’s bad business.

This is totally amply demonstrated by the fact that no AA+ VR release with first-person walking uses classic stick motion or WASD alone.

They may offer it amongst a spread of options. But never as the sole locomotion options.






Nope. Please demonstrate the ubiquity of console controller / WASD motion alone in quality ‘walking’ PCVR games.

You can’t. Because it doesn’t happen.

Because game developers care about nausea, even if you don’t.

So please stop with your non-argument

I really think people over estimate the problem.

 

[VR Golgot]

I really think people over estimate the problem.

Hey, no list of WASD VR games?

Cool yep, you’ve mentioned that occasionally . The devs making all the VR games seem to disagree with you though. And that’s kinda the crux of the issue.

 

[VR Murgle]

Oh sure, they could add warnings:

"Hi noob. If you’re one of the 80% who experience nausea when first using VR, you may experience cumulative nausea every time you turn. If you experience nausea, please don’t turn."

That’d be the situation under the 'let them use smooth turning' basic locomotion you’re advocating anyway

Warnings aren’t a fix in themselves.

Nope: if you feel you start to sweat, take of the headset, do NOT continue playing until you are nauseous. Take enough time to recover before you try again and slowly build up your resistance.

And that would be from one the first youtube videos I found when researching the subject, there were more tips in there such as have a fan blowing in you face while playing and a few more I forgot...

and again I'm not saying it should be the only option, but nausea should be a reason not to do it VR confuses your brain there are no two ways around that.

 

[Kelster87]

If it's so damned easy to add VR in for everything, why are VR games so much less common?

 

[VR Golgot]

Nope: if you feel you start to sweat, take of the headset, do NOT continue playing until you are nauseous. Take enough time to recover before you try again and slowly build up your resistance.

And that would be from one the first youtube videos I found when researching the subject, there were more tips in there such as have a fan blowing in you face while playing and a few more I forgot...

Yeah you may have missed my sarcastic tone there.

The point would be: Locomotion systems that are guaranteed to make a sizeable number of your players feel off, and so have to stop playing... are not hugely popular in game design circles at the moment. Weird that

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I vehemently disagree with the idea of "bribing" frontier. First of all, they're for all intents and purposes a big corporation which is publicly traded and have healthy financial stats - it's all for everyone to see. They're investing in franchise after franchise, and licensed ones at that. Secondly, they don't need chump change from VR users, on which they couldn't be more clear by dropping VR from Odyssey ALLTOGETHER. They're basically saying "we don't care if you won't buy the dlc, so long and thanks for the fish". Thirdly, it sends a very bad message for the rest of the industry that VR players want to be milked. I don't. It drives the cost of VR upwards because games are a cost factor too. If you want to make VR more popular, cost must be brought DOWN not UP because you want something shiny now now now and can afford it. No! Bad VR gamer, no!

I think the real reason is that rewriting things took too long, and they're way behind schedule. The initial alleged lack of ship interiors would point that way. They simply have their hands full and can't be bothered with coding for 2.8% users ;-) Most of which have LEP anyway. So why bother?

Last but not least, locomotion. Google earth has full locomotion using comfort blinders, same for Skyrim VR. It really can be done, there are myriads of examples of locomotion methods in various games. There are also 3rd party hybrids like "Natural Locomotion" which even further help fight the sensory disjoint which causes VR sickness. So I'm with Murgle on this one, this is not a reason. Also, almost every HMD owner knows the risks involved with smooth locomotion. It could have been a problem in 2016, but it no longer isn't one. And with Oculus Quest on the rise, we will probably see more games coming to VR soon. Also if EA sends a signal that VR is cool, that's something. Valve had real stake in it, EA couldn't care less, but they did, for the coolness factor. I think it's great. I didn't think I'd praise EA for anything in the upcoming decade. But knowing as little as I know now about SW:Squadrons, I will (after the release, if it holds ). I know I will be buying SW:Sq for the amazing SW in VR experience, I know I won't be buying Odyssey at launch (see what I did there? )

 

[VR Murgle]

Yeah you may have missed my sarcastic tone there.

The point would be: A locomotion system guaranteed to make many players feel off, and so have to stop playing... is not hugely popular in game design circles at the moment. Weird that

So I'm relatively new to VR and when I saw people on this forum discuss legs and stating with absolute certainty that VR legs would make you sick as a dog I was worried because I was considering getting VR for E: D. When I finally got a HMD I picked up Skyrim VR on a Steam sale just to make sure I wasn't setting myself up for a disappointment (little did I know FD would do that for me) and yeah I did some research...


And found a way to deal with the problem and slowly get used to smooth motion in VR, didn't even take all that long.

Edit: didn't miss the sarcasm, wouldn't have missed it if it hadn't been there though but I figure why not drop in a useful tip just because...

 

[Stamford Rider]

Yeah you may have missed my sarcastic tone there.

The point would be: Locomotion systems that are guaranteed to make a sizeable number of your players feel off, and so have to stop playing... are not hugely popular in game design circles at the moment. Weird that

Surely the issue would be leaving the option for the cast iron stomached 20%, rather than making it exclusively flatscreen? Just accepting position and orientation data from, and presenting the final camera matrix to a VR API is the work of moments. Caveat emptor on whether or not you end up calling Hugh on the great white telephone. Yes "doing it properly" would doubtless be superb, but it would cost so little to just leave it "available" for those of an heroic bent.

 

[VR Murgle]

Surely the issue would be leaving the option for the cast iron stomached 20%, rather than making it exclusively flatscreen? Just accepting position and orientation data from, and presenting the final camera matrix to a VR API is the work of moments. Caveat emptor on whether or not you end up calling Hugh on the great white telephone. Yes "doing it properly" would doubtless be superb, but it would cost so little to just leave it "available" for those of an heroic bent.

Unfortunately it would take a little more effort to even do a "Bethesda" although problably not that much more after all it was too much trouble to fix the bugs in Skyrim SE and VR but they could find the time to add VR to an at that point 11 year old game...