Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[MarkAusten]

So you have no idea what open is like and you keep posting in a thread about open.

Why not? I seem to be fairly educated about it. After all, you don't have to be a time traveller to be a historian do you? Or an artist to appreciate art? Or a musician to appreciate music.

So I consider that comment to be irrelevant.

Possibly my comments are considerably less biased about the subject than those who do play in Open.

Certainly less religious about it, if you see what I mean.

Except that that thrice bedamned "hiding" issue.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Please tell me. ED is this the only game in the world with such an implementation and concept of an "open" game world? I honestly did not meet such a thing and did not even think that such a thing could be invented.

I'm not sure if it's unique - I seem to remember being aware that Ashes of the Singularity was going to adopt a similar system but didn't follow that project.

Something similar I met in early versions of DayZ. There you could switch to another server in case of danger, go to another place in a safe environment, and then return to the previous server. But this has already been corrected.

Sounds like a bug in a PvP survival game - this is neither a game that requires PvP nor a survival game of that type.

 

[MadSinUN]

But why should it be a problem for anyone?

I mean I understand this in other games such as Rainbow 6 Siege where 90% of the game is pure PvP and you get some players playing the SP situations only and still earning in game rewards (albeit a lot slower than the PvPers).

But as I said in my last post, Elite caters for everyone, which is very rare these days and as far as I'm aware there is no benefits or extra reward for killing other players in game, no extra combat rank gains, it seems the only benefits PvP gives you is the satisfaction of beating another player in combat, which is fine of course.

But many of us don't want to be subjected to that. Personally I find flying through asteroid fields blowing up rocks to be a relaxing and enjoyable experience. Yet PvPers are whining that there isn't enough players for them to satisfy their virtual bloodlust. And resort to saying we're 'Hiding in Solo'.

We're not hiding, we're enjoying this game without some Boba Fett wannabe spamming you with "cOmE @ mE bRo!"

The question should start with "why does ED serve everyone except Pvp players"? Why are the owners of the sandbox pve players, and Pvp players have to be content with the remnants? I think many do not understand the requests of the Pvp players. PvP players do not call other players to themselves. The PvP is asked to create a game space that satisfies the Pvp style of play. A space where the Galaxy will really be dangerous always, and not just as long as the player wants it. They do not force Pve players to go into this space, it can be separate, similar to the fourth game mode " Hardcore open PvP"

 

[Melanthes]

Yet PvPers are whining that there isn't enough players for them to satisfy their virtual bloodlust.

No, sorry, fighting you would be a most boring experience. Keep hiding in solo, for the enjoyment of both of us. Open is full enough as it is.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The question should start with "why does ED serve everyone except Pvp players"? Why are the owners of the sandbox pve players, and Pvp players have to be content with the remnants?

The simple answer to that may be that no feature of the game has been designed to be dominated by PvP (except CQC) and that all content is available in all modes (except Wings and Multi-Crew being unavailable in Solo).

If Frontier had wanted to design a game that revolved around PvP then I expect that they would have.

I think many do not understand the requests of the Pvp players. PvP players do not call other players to themselves. The PvP is asked to create a game space that satisfies the Pvp style of play.

Many of the requests from players who prefer PvP don't ask for new features to be added - they often demand that existing pan-modal content shared by all players is PvP-gated to Open, effectively taking those features away from players who eschew PvP.

 

[RuckBogers75]

The question should start with "why does ED serve everyone except Pvp players"? Why are the owners of the sandbox pve players, and Pvp players have to be content with the remnants? I think many do not understand the requests of the Pvp players. PvP players do not call other players to themselves. The PvP is asked to create a game space that satisfies the Pvp style of play.

I was under the impression the game does exactly that. I mean you only have to look on YouTube to find hours of video footage of PvP gameplay. To be honest I thought solo players were a minority.

And if I am wrong, well you can see why

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Indeed and I clearly remember many, many posts that accused us Soloists of hiding and one or two mentioning the word coward.

For me, I never play games with other people. How is that "hiding". I could never get them to see that, however.

Oh well.

Elite gives the option of playing the game via the mode that each player prefers, and that's fine - I don't hold strong views re Open only etc., and think Solo/PG are necessary and here to stay (and they should). As such, I have zero issues with players who don't want to be in Open and prefer Solo, I can fully understand why and I used to play that way myself in the first year or two.

The only problem I have is with individuals who get upset when they play in Open (where they should know full well that coming across hostile players is a risk) and then complain that other players don't behave according to their needs. The game allows for a wide range of actions, and if players make use of the various options that are available to them, there's nothing wrong with that and they shouldn't be judged on what options they go for, it's a game not a psychoanalysis.

I don't like name-calling from either side of the fence, it's childish and uncalled for - I do see it from both sides but by and large the more likely group to engage in this behaviour are those who play in Solo (who taunt those who play in Open - I know they play in Solo because they actually make sure to rub that fact in) or those who were attacked.

I have a rebuy total of over 300m credits at this stage (with 150+ rebuys on record, don't remember the exact number) - if you think about it, that's from playing the game over 5 years, and yet it's a single LTD haul in a Python, crazy eh? - and not once did I offer salt in any shape or form via comms. Take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes (because there's always a lesson to be learned). I don't know why people can't have a bit more self restraint in this regard. Fragile egos most likely.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But why should it be a problem for anyone?

It seems that some players are unable to accept that other players don't need to play with them - as that has been an ongoing theme since the game was successful in its Kickstarter pitch, players convinced that "the game will die" is this or that feature is not restricted to players in Open only. Needless to say, prophesies of the game's imminent doom have all been wrong up to now.

I mean I understand this in other games such as Rainbow 6 Siege where 90% of the game is pure PvP and you get some players playing the SP situations only and still earning in game rewards (albeit a lot slower than the PvPers).

But as I said in my last post, Elite caters for everyone, which is very rare these days and as far as I'm aware there is no benefits or extra reward for killing other players in game, no extra combat rank gains, it seems the only benefits PvP gives you is the satisfaction of beating another player in combat, which is fine of course.

But many of us don't want to be subjected to that. Personally I find flying through asteroid fields blowing up rocks to be a relaxing and enjoyable experience. Yet PvPers are whining that there isn't enough players for them to satisfy their virtual bloodlust. And resort to saying we're 'Hiding in Solo'.

We're not hiding, we're enjoying this game without some Boba Fett wannabe spamming you with "cOmE @ mE bRo!"

Indeed.

 

[RuckBogers75]

No, sorry, fighting you would be a most boring experience. Keep hiding in solo, for the enjoyment of both of us. Open is full enough as it is.

Wow... someone's upset.

Sorry pal but you seem to be under the impression that I've never played in open... I have

You also maybe under the impression that I've never scored PvP kills before... I have, several.

And you also may very well be under the impression that I am new to this game... trust me when I say this. I am most certainly not, 5 years almost

It's not the fear of dying in PvP that stopped me from playing in open (I've restarted more times than most people) it's the toxicity that comes from people while in open. I'm to old to be bothered by it but if the option is there to 'turn it off' then I will do just that.

Thanks for your input...

 

[ZeroAi]

Hello! Just a little headstart:
I am not a pvp'er! I only play in pve! And mostly in solo or pg's! This thread is a discussion about why i don't play in open and partake in pvp, and what could maybe, possibly bring some people into open! At least more often!

Here is something i was thinking about for the last... week, if not more. And before i start - no, i don't belive pirates to be the worst kind o players. Or gankers. And i don't belive PVP is a devil-spawn to be killed with fire. On the contrary. I just want to give a bit of... insight, as to why people are avoiding open.

For the past few days i have been (like many others) mining. Not to get a carrier though! I am mining because right now, with Carriers added, you have an actuall way to interact and work together with other players. I can chat with people in Elite! What a shock! The chat actually serves another function besides trying to insult that one guy who is going to get married! I got some Ltd's, i gave some tritium to the pal who has been using his carrier as a taxi, somethimes selling some ltd's on a lower price for them as well, as my way of saying "thank you!". Overall a very, very nice experience. The carriers do serve a nice role for miners now, horay! But, at the same time i have noticed a few people, who have been asking other cmdr's to mine in open, and who would usually get very.... "defensive", when met with an overall negative response to their speaches about risk taking and solo/pg players destroying the pirate-side of the experience. Thus i do assume, that those folks were mostly pirates, who wanted a challenge. And there is, of course, nothing wrong with that.

Because of that, and of the few conversations i had both in game and on discord, I started to wonder - why would anyone actually mine in open? Or play in open at all?

PVP in Elite is a ...can. Maybe not of worms, but it does have it's problems. Combat logging, insults towards pirates, game being not balanced at all. But i have been wondering, why would anyone actually mine, trade or...well, fly in open?
There are a few reasons, as to why people don't want to do that, in my opinion. Look at this example:

1. You mine in open.
2. Someone goes to you, points his guns at you, demanding some LTD's you have just mined. You have three options:
a) give him the stuff;
b) try and run away;
c) fight;

In Elite, the easiest thing to do is to run away. Making a quick ship is not that difficult, so running away quickly and high-waking is the easest thing to do. But it does take away time, which some have only a little of to play. And let's be honest. You go to another system, you have escaped... but you have to go back to that system to continue what you have been doing. So... what was the point of running away? (Of course, that is, IF the system is your selling system or mining system, if it's mid-way, then you can take a detour, but people are waiting for targets in selling systems...).

Combat? I would forget it. If your enemy is in a pvp build, and you are in a mining build, you are not gonna win. Unless the pirate is very bad at flying or you are very good at it. But why would you, when you came here to mine? Or to trade?

And giving up to his demands? That is the worst option in the eyes of some players. Elite is a time-consuming game. So imagine - you mine for an hour (it's even worse, if you don't like mining), and now some guy wants you to give it up?

What does it sum up to?
Besides a potential (and usually one-time for some) "Hey! I have managed to run away! I ma so great!", there is no incentive to actually go through that.
Everything you do in Elite, you can do in Solo, PG, or Open.

A gameplay loop in Elite usually consists of:
1. Prepare a ship for said loop (and start the loop, if it is a trading/passanger route);
2. Go to the system
3. Mine/trade/do something
4. Go to the system where you take your reward for it.

IF you go in open, you add the risk of having all that you did/are trying to acomplish ruined/stoped.
And there is no reward for taking that risk. It doesn't matter if you are in open. In fact, most people may avoid being in open, because:

They DON'T want to be someone's gameplay.

Because, frankly, why would they?
Being a prey in Elite is not fun for everyone. It is usually annoying (besides maybe the first two times you are being chased). After all:
- you are being attacked by someone, who will win in a 1 v 1 fight, the npc's will come to help you, but they may not arrive in time, hatchbreaking your ship is easy. And of course, you get nothingout of that experience, besides being annoyed that you just took this kind of risk for no potential gain.


Thus, as the title stated- Being a "prey" of a pirate is not fun, gives no reward for the risk taken, and is usually a very not-fun experience.
Yes, you can learn how to run away. You can avoid the danger. But the gameplay-part of "running away and avoiding the danger" is not fun, because you are not getting anything for it.


What i would like to add at the end - please, if you would like people to play in open with you, so you can find a challenge, so you can be the pirate you would like to be, think about why people don't want go through that ^ ^.

Also: i am talking about people who don't like that kind of gameplay. IF you do like being a prey, if you like the "I have to run away!" then all the power for you. But there are many, who don't enjoy it.

Sincerely,
Eric Alsteif.

+1

Good stuff!

Yeah, I play in PG because I ain't got no time for PKers.

If there was no PG or Solo, I just wouldn't play (unless PvP in open was consensual - forcing players into PvP who have no interest in it is not the future of open world games)

o7

 

[MadSinUN]

Many of the requests from players who prefer PvP don't ask for new features to be added - they often demand that existing pan-modal content shared by all players is PvP-gated to Open, effectively taking those features away from players who eschew PvP.

It seemed to me that the discussion of such topics eventually moved to a more constructive stage than before. And in this branch, representatives of the Pvp do not call for Pve players in open mode or accept unconditionally Pvp battle, but ask to do something with the Pvp component in principle.

 

[MarkAusten]

Elite gives the option of playing the game via the mode that each player prefers, and that's fine - I don't hold strong views re Open only etc., and think Solo/PG are necessary and here to stay (and they should). As such, I have zero issues with players who don't want to be in Open and prefer Solo, I can fully understand why and I used to play that way myself in the first year or two.

The only problem I have is with individuals who get upset when they play in Open (where they should know full well that coming across hostile players is a risk) and then complain that other players don't behave according to their needs. The game allows for a wide range of actions, and if players make use of the various options that are available to them, there's nothing wrong with that and they shouldn't be judged on what options they go for, it's a game not a psychoanalysis.

I don't like name-calling from either side of the fence, it's childish and uncalled for - I do see it from both sides but by and large the more likely group to engage in this behaviour are those who play in Solo (who taunt those who play in Open - I know they play in Solo because they actually make sure to rub that fact in) or those who were attacked.

I have a rebuy total of over 300m credits at this stage (with 150+ rebuys on record, don't remember the exact number) - if you think about it, that's from playing the game over 5 years, and yet it's a single LTD haul in a Python, crazy eh? - and not once did I offer salt in any shape or form via comms. Take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes (because there's always a lesson to be learned). I don't know why people can't have a bit more self restraint in this regard. Fragile egos most likely.

And Solo is safe? I'm around the 50+ rebuys mark but what does that matter? I took these on the chin, learnt from my mistakes.

As for fragile egos? Too many of those on both sides.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It seemed to me that the discussion of such topics eventually moved to a more constructive stage than before. And in this branch, representatives of the Pvp do not call for Pve players in open mode or accept unconditionally Pvp battle, but ask to do something with the Pvp component in principle.

That's one aspect of the discussion - posts still pop up requesting/suggesting/demanding that affecting the BGS and Powerplay be restricted to players in Open only.

 

[MadSinUN]

I yesterday bought Tritium for refueling our FC in one of ststem. There were at least 8 (+/- 3) players at the station for 1 hour, who also bought Tritium. Also in the system there were about 30 FC which probably also had players. And this is only one star system. So, I assume that there are enough players in open mode and those who play solo and PG can continue to play these modes completely calmly. No one forces them or asks them to return to the open

 

[Deleted member 182079]

And Solo is safe? I'm around the 50+ rebuys mark but what does that matter? I took these on the chin, learnt from my mistakes.

As for fragile egos? Too many of those on both sides.

Once you've gained a fair level of experience, Solo is a joke when it comes to any danger - you'll have to purposefully gimp yourself in order to get yourself into a tight spot (which is why I sold my Cutter and rarely fly my Vette). That's why I fly mostly small ships only these days, they're just more exciting than easy-mode ones where you're just going through the motions no matter what activity you're engaging in.

And NPCs don't use the full arsenal of engineering/outfitting options, and don't chase you at max speed (the more dangerous Goid Interceptors are the exception) and try to take your FSD/drives down to prevent you from escaping.

 

[Iskariot]

Hello! Just a little headstart:
I am not a pvp'er! I only play in pve! And mostly in solo or pg's! This thread is a discussion about why i don't play in open and partake in pvp, and what could maybe, possibly bring some people into open! At least more often!

Here is something i was thinking about for the last... week, if not more. And before i start - no, i don't belive pirates to be the worst kind o players. Or gankers. And i don't belive PVP is a devil-spawn to be killed with fire. On the contrary. I just want to give a bit of... insight, as to why people are avoiding open.

For the past few days i have been (like many others) mining. Not to get a carrier though! I am mining because right now, with Carriers added, you have an actuall way to interact and work together with other players. I can chat with people in Elite! What a shock! The chat actually serves another function besides trying to insult that one guy who is going to get married! I got some Ltd's, i gave some tritium to the pal who has been using his carrier as a taxi, somethimes selling some ltd's on a lower price for them as well, as my way of saying "thank you!". Overall a very, very nice experience. The carriers do serve a nice role for miners now, horay! But, at the same time i have noticed a few people, who have been asking other cmdr's to mine in open, and who would usually get very.... "defensive", when met with an overall negative response to their speaches about risk taking and solo/pg players destroying the pirate-side of the experience. Thus i do assume, that those folks were mostly pirates, who wanted a challenge. And there is, of course, nothing wrong with that.

Because of that, and of the few conversations i had both in game and on discord, I started to wonder - why would anyone actually mine in open? Or play in open at all?

PVP in Elite is a ...can. Maybe not of worms, but it does have it's problems. Combat logging, insults towards pirates, game being not balanced at all. But i have been wondering, why would anyone actually mine, trade or...well, fly in open?
There are a few reasons, as to why people don't want to do that, in my opinion. Look at this example:

1. You mine in open.
2. Someone goes to you, points his guns at you, demanding some LTD's you have just mined. You have three options:
a) give him the stuff;
b) try and run away;
c) fight;

In Elite, the easiest thing to do is to run away. Making a quick ship is not that difficult, so running away quickly and high-waking is the easest thing to do. But it does take away time, which some have only a little of to play. And let's be honest. You go to another system, you have escaped... but you have to go back to that system to continue what you have been doing. So... what was the point of running away? (Of course, that is, IF the system is your selling system or mining system, if it's mid-way, then you can take a detour, but people are waiting for targets in selling systems...).

Combat? I would forget it. If your enemy is in a pvp build, and you are in a mining build, you are not gonna win. Unless the pirate is very bad at flying or you are very good at it. But why would you, when you came here to mine? Or to trade?

And giving up to his demands? That is the worst option in the eyes of some players. Elite is a time-consuming game. So imagine - you mine for an hour (it's even worse, if you don't like mining), and now some guy wants you to give it up?

What does it sum up to?
Besides a potential (and usually one-time for some) "Hey! I have managed to run away! I ma so great!", there is no incentive to actually go through that.
Everything you do in Elite, you can do in Solo, PG, or Open.

A gameplay loop in Elite usually consists of:
1. Prepare a ship for said loop (and start the loop, if it is a trading/passanger route);
2. Go to the system
3. Mine/trade/do something
4. Go to the system where you take your reward for it.

IF you go in open, you add the risk of having all that you did/are trying to acomplish ruined/stoped.
And there is no reward for taking that risk. It doesn't matter if you are in open. In fact, most people may avoid being in open, because:

They DON'T want to be someone's gameplay.

Because, frankly, why would they?
Being a prey in Elite is not fun for everyone. It is usually annoying (besides maybe the first two times you are being chased). After all:
- you are being attacked by someone, who will win in a 1 v 1 fight, the npc's will come to help you, but they may not arrive in time, hatchbreaking your ship is easy. And of course, you get nothingout of that experience, besides being annoyed that you just took this kind of risk for no potential gain.


Thus, as the title stated- Being a "prey" of a pirate is not fun, gives no reward for the risk taken, and is usually a very not-fun experience.
Yes, you can learn how to run away. You can avoid the danger. But the gameplay-part of "running away and avoiding the danger" is not fun, because you are not getting anything for it.


What i would like to add at the end - please, if you would like people to play in open with you, so you can find a challenge, so you can be the pirate you would like to be, think about why people don't want go through that ^ ^.

Also: i am talking about people who don't like that kind of gameplay. IF you do like being a prey, if you like the "I have to run away!" then all the power for you. But there are many, who don't enjoy it.

Sincerely,
Eric Alsteif.

If you know the Elite Galaxy (the lay out, and the inner workings) the chances of getting intercepted by a human aggressor is actually quite small, very small, extremely small.
Most people you meet are just going about their own business.

In my opinion the real piracy players are not a problem at all. They are extremely cool and fun to have in an open multiplayer world like Elite. They have some sort of piracy code they play by. These players are social players. They do not do it for the credits (obviously as they do not make big bucks), but they are pirates for the social interaction. I think that is awesome and it really adds to the experience of the Open gameplay. If such a pirate catches you he will most likely demand an affordable contribution to his piracy efforts. I have watched many of such videos, and it is all done in a positive spirit
Piracy Players are not gankers, or griefers, or bullies. They do not wish to have fun at the cost of yours. They are a very healthy, positive addition to the game.

Gankers or griefers do want to have fun at you expense. Their entire goal is to have fun at your expense. This is the mindset of anti-social behavior. This is completely different from what I consider to be true piracy role playing. Griefers/gankers want to ruin your fun. They are like sickly parasites. They substract from the game. Their interaction is always very negative and very unhealthy for the game. If you watch their videos, you can observe a stark difference when compared to true piracy players. These vids ooze a negative unhealthy atmosphere that is in line with their bullying, griefing behaviour. It is truly disgusting.

The biggest problem for a miner/trader is... how to distinguish between a true pirate roleplayer and a griefer. Most will not take the risk, rightly so.
And that is why griefers/gankers are unhealthy for the game. They destroy trust.

 

[MarkAusten]

Once you've gained a fair level of experience, Solo is a joke when it comes to any danger - you'll have to purposefully gimp yourself in order to get yourself into a tight spot (which is why I sold my Cutter and rarely fly my Vette). That's why I fly mostly small ships only these days, they're just more exciting than easy-mode ones where you're just going through the motions no matter what activity you're engaging in.

And NPCs don't use the full arsenal of engineering/outfitting options, and don't chase you at max speed (the more dangerous Goid Interceptors are the exception) and try to take your FSD/drives down to prevent you from escaping.

Bad assumption. I'm not a young sprout with relaxes like a cat. I'm a Grumpy Old Git and my reflexes are as slow as molasses. I don't doubt that playing against live pilots is more dangerous than NPCs but those are my limit. And It's a wise man that knows his limits.

ED allows me to play a Solo game at a level that I can. And I don't play for excitement. Never. Not in my 35 year of playing Elite have I ever played for excitement. I leave that to pilots like you. Elite for me has always been Solo, for enjoyment and just for me.

 

[MadSinUN]

That's one aspect of the discussion - posts still pop up requesting/suggesting/demanding that affecting the BGS and Powerplay be restricted to players in Open only.

"Periodically pop up" and "main request" different statements in essence. Right?

 

[Robert Maynard]

"Periodically pop up" and "main request" different statements in essence. Right?

The former relates to the frequency of the requests to PvP-gate content

 

[RuckBogers75]

Bad assumption. I'm not a young sprout with relaxes like a cat. I'm a Grumpy Old Git and my reflexes are as slow as molasses. I don't doubt that playing against live pilots is more dangerous than NPCs but those are my limit. And It's a wise man that knows his limits.

ED allows me to play a Solo game at a level that I can. And I don't play for excitement. Never. Not in my 35 year of playing Elite have I ever played for excitement. I leave that to pilots like you. Elite for me has always been Solo, for enjoyment and just for me.

Ahh, a fellow original Elite player?