Limpet Controllers - Good mechanics, but here's how to make it better

Losco Nosciuto

Losco Nosciuto
This is something I noticed since when I started playing. The limpet gameplay is cool, so damn cool I'd never change the way it works gameplay wise.

There is tho one point I'd like to bring to discussion.

I am pretty sure that 1 thousand and 2 hundred years ahead of now, we would have a controller which might have a dedicated software, a versatile version of a launcher.
The same that goes for actual warhead launchers now, where you can choose, for instance a High Attack angle from above or a straight line attack.

So why in 3300s we would have many different Limpet Controllers, occupying slots over slots in our ships?

I suppose that at that time, tech would be good enough to allow a single module, with different software versions, to control a different limpets with different inputs depending on the situation. Different limpets might achieve different tasks based on what the actual objective is and what limpets they are, relying on ONE launcher / controller only, which has a software which can remotely control each single limpet subsystem to do what they are supposed to.


TL : DR Would be good instead of many controllers and one limpet, to have many limpet types and one versatile software based controller, which launches and controls limpet subsystems based on what limpet is loaded
 

Leadfoot

Leadfoot
I know some people hate the "one controller to rule them all" but I agree that a controller should be able to have a switch on it to make it a collector controller, prospect controller, hatch breaker controller, fuel controller, etc.

If FD wants, while they could keep it a single slot device, it could always have a downside, i.e., more expensive, more mass, limit to 4 or 5 concepts (i.e., all things a miner might need, all things a pirate might need, etc).
 

wabboo

wabboo
Universal limpet controllers suggestions have been doing the rounds for a very long time (the following links aren't the only ones):
The suggestions mostly target two key issues:
  • Controllers take up too many optional internal slots.
  • Limpets themselves take up cargo space.
The solutions in these suggestions tend to be similar:
  • Create one universal controller with fighter/planetary hangar like slots for the functions.
  • Limpets should either be ammo (disposable) or should be like ship launcher fighters (durable).
What I find interesting is why do commanders want this? These are some of the reasons I can come up with:

Expanding ship role
Having an universal limpet controller will free up optional slots for other things. This allows commanders to do more with their ship without the need for reconfiguration. I kind of like specialized ships, so I'd be curious what role you'd want to add to your ship that you don't want to specialize for.

Material hoovering
Combat pilots that want to collect materials from destroyed ships will want a collector limpet controller, but are also forced to have a cargo bay for the limpets. Since these ships are fitted as combat ships, not a lot of cargo space will be available for limpets. Having limpets be ammo instead of cargo would solve that issue. This would cause problems as limpets that scoop up cargo can't drop it and the need for material only limpets arises.

Are there other reasons I'm not aware of?
 

Nephthys Vasudan

N
I've been griping since i started playing this game - "I'd kill for a tractor beam" - Limpets are interesting ill grant....but I utterly hate their AI. (loses 10 to a exploded asteroid core) >.>;

If anything an improved AI or something would be nice.
 

Losco Nosciuto

Losco Nosciuto
norlin said:
Ask then why ships does not have an autopilot or why the stupid flight assists (docking/supercruise) took an entire room (1-size slot) each :)
Click to expand...
I might agree Docking Computers should be more realistically Utility Mounts size more than room sized Optional Internal, or also a new "software mechanics" could be a nice addition to the game, both for Computers and Limpets. But an autopilot? Most of times piloting is the only thing you do and engage yourself with in a system. That way it would become a "Sitting duck simulator" for pirates, or a "Gaming Watching Simulator" where we watch what our autopilot does the whole time ;)
 

Losco Nosciuto

Losco Nosciuto
wabboo said:
Universal limpet controllers suggestions have been doing the rounds for a very long time (the following links aren't the only ones):
The suggestions mostly target two key issues:
  • Controllers take up too many optional internal slots.
  • Limpets themselves take up cargo space.
The solutions in these suggestions tend to be similar:
  • Create one universal controller with fighter/planetary hangar like slots for the functions.
  • Limpets should either be ammo (disposable) or should be like ship launcher fighters (durable).
What I find interesting is why do commanders want this? These are some of the reasons I can come up with:

Expanding ship role
Having an universal limpet controller will free up optional slots for other things. This allows commanders to do more with their ship without the need for reconfiguration. I kind of like specialized ships, so I'd be curious what role you'd want to add to your ship that you don't want to specialize for.

Material hoovering
Combat pilots that want to collect materials from destroyed ships will want a collector limpet controller, but are also forced to have a cargo bay for the limpets. Since these ships are fitted as combat ships, not a lot of cargo space will be available for limpets. Having limpets be ammo instead of cargo would solve that issue. This would cause problems as limpets that scoop up cargo can't drop it and the need for material only limpets arises.

Are there other reasons I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...
yep I might have mistaken the section. This to me is an issue, more than a suggestion :D So I'd just have had to post this thread somewhere else and remove the word "IDEA" from the very whole of the thread itself :) I might agree with all you said but my goal wasn't a proposal of something new, which came automatically out of me as a side effect and it's why I posted in suggestions sub-forum, but mostly it is all about how a single limpet with multiple controllers looks so unbelievable in 3300s and that other than this, it is just a waste of good mechanics for a non conventional anti-intuitive solution which doesn't make anybody happy but who just started playing or who don't use them. Both of them, just don't care :D
 

badibeat

badibeat
wabboo said:
Are there other reasons I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...
Your concise, generic roles don't leave much room. I give it a try:
  • Sustainability: Decontamination Limpet controller / Repair Limpet Controller + AFMU + Cargo Rack.
This is an example which could be filed under "Expanding ship role", although it fits only a single role:
  • Rescue: Fuel Transfer Limpet Controller + Repair Limpet Controller + Collector Limpet Controller + Hatch Breaker Limpet Controller + Cargo Rack (+ AFMU for self + Fuel Scoop + maybe extra Fuel Tank)
Nephthys Vasudan said:
I've been griping since i started playing this game - "I'd kill for a tractor beam"
Click to expand...
There's already plenty space magic in E: D. Please not.
Nephthys Vasudan said:
If anything an improved AI or something would be nice.
Click to expand...
Limpets can't well avoid fast surfaces if they don't come at a flat angle. This could be a limit of their thrusters and sight range combined (they may not see what is behind the surface as well), not necessarily their A.I. - but they also don't correct course quickly, which could be deliberate.
Knowing this I don't loose many limpets when laser mining, even though I don't shy off fast rotating, large, un-round asteroids.
Not experienced with core mining, but maybe letting the Collector Limpets return before blowing the asteroid up helps.
 
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Nephthys Vasudan

N
Core Mining makes for a multitude of hazards....I suggest you try it yourself to get an idea of why I think they limpets could use a improved AI. Flying in a striaght line won't work if the rock spins into your path. Or if fragments clip into the damn rock.
 

Teh Smoo

T
Nephthys Vasudan said:
I've been griping since i started playing this game - "I'd kill for a tractor beam" - Limpets are interesting ill grant....but I utterly hate their AI. (loses 10 to a exploded asteroid core) >.>;

If anything an improved AI or something would be nice.
Click to expand...
They're hard coded to mostly avoid stuff, but their swoop to pick up things doesn't seem to check for collision. That and they have issues with irregular objects like deep core mining.

But, yeah. This is one of the reasons I don't take fdev seriously. They refuse to fix module spam and balance things.

Nope, we get to abuse money making and drop 5 billion on a money sink instead.
 

norlin

norlin
Losco Nosciuto said:
But an autopilot? Most of times piloting is the only thing you do and engage yourself with in a system
Click to expand...
Nope I meant from the realistic point of view - what? In 2020 we have self-driving cars, planes, rockets, etc, but they can't make an autopilot in 3300+ - makes no sense :)
From the gameplay, it's clear that autopilot will not fit a spaceship-sim-game, ofc.
 

wabboo

wabboo
badibeat said:
Your concise, generic roles don't leave much room. I give it a try:
  • Sustainability: Decontamination Limpet controller / Repair Limpet Controller + AFMU + Cargo Rack.
This is an example which could be filed under "Expanding ship role", although it fits only a single role:
  • Rescue: Fuel Transfer Limpet Controller + Repair Limpet Controller + Collector Limpet Controller + Hatch Breaker Limpet Controller + Cargo Rack (+ AFMU for self + Fuel Scoop + maybe extra Fuel Tank.
Click to expand...

The rescue role definitely has merit. FDev have been expanding on that role through installation scenario's, ships in distress and the search & rescue contact. Most ships already allow specialization into that role (although not very rewarding). Example build: Cobra Mk3 rescue build. So there is no direct need for an universal controller that saves optional module space for that role.

As for the sustainability, it comes down to choice and what you as a commander deem important. While AFMU's are nice, should every ship have the option to have them? Or should it be a trade off with something else you might want. Would it be a problem if you don't have a decontamination limpet controller if you're not fighting with Thargoids (which needs specific ship builds anyway)?
 

Sylow

Sylow
wabboo said:
Expanding ship role
Having an universal limpet controller will free up optional slots for other things. This allows commanders to do more with their ship without the need for reconfiguration. I kind of like specialized ships, so I'd be curious what role you'd want to add to your ship that you don't want to specialize for.

Material hoovering
Combat pilots that want to collect materials from destroyed ships will want a collector limpet controller, but are also forced to have a cargo bay for the limpets. Since these ships are fitted as combat ships, not a lot of cargo space will be available for limpets. Having limpets be ammo instead of cargo would solve that issue. This would cause problems as limpets that scoop up cargo can't drop it and the need for material only limpets arises.

Are there other reasons I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...

Strictly speaking my answer still is "Expanding ship role", but from a very different angle: breathing life into currently existing but dead and smelly content. The prime example for that are distress calls. You see them so often. But who actually enters them?

The current situation looks like this:
  • What you find is random. It can be a a pirate ambush, which actually can be fun to pull through at some time. So if you are in a well fit combat ship, you might actually enter those things and see what they are up to.
  • But it can also be some "i ran out of fuel" or "i need repairs" NPC. A fully fit combat ship can't really do much there. You shrug and go back to supercruise. A ship set up for helping these people would do better, but it doesn't -want- to go there, due to the high chance to instead being greeted by several engineered Anacondas and actually needing a combat ship to survive.

So only combat fit ships are suitable for distress calls, but they can't do any good when it's the non-combat version of it. To make it more viable content, it would either have to be nerfed down or the players need to be given the tools by default. I would think that the second version is way more desirable, both from a players and a game designers point of view.

So just like my car comes with a spare tire and i am required to have a warning triangle and first aid kit on board, the pilots federation might require every ship to come with fuel transfer and repair limpet controller built in (not removeable, else it will be just more slots for engineered HRPs) and space for two or four limpets. (And limpets only, no other cargo. ) It would allow to be "successful" in distress calls without having to make strange sacrifices, but it would not be as big and significant to be a threat to more dedicated refuelers like the fuel rats. (While even for them a few free limpets sure would not hurt, especially as it would actually clear up one slot for all of them. )

Also, once this equipment is "default" on all ships, FD can more freely require their use in new content. I can imagine several scenarios which would become viable content if these controllers would be default equipment, while they're not worth implementing in the current state of the game.
 
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badibeat

badibeat
wabboo said:
The rescue role definitely has merit. FDev have been expanding on that role through installation scenario's, ships in distress and the search & rescue contact. Most ships already allow specialization into that role (although not very rewarding). Example build: Cobra Mk3 rescue build. So there is no direct need for an universal controller that saves optional module space for that role.

As for the sustainability, it comes down to choice and what you as a commander deem important. While AFMU's are nice, should every ship have the option to have them? Or should it be a trade off with something else you might want. Would it be a problem if you don't have a decontamination limpet controller if you're not fighting with Thargoids (which needs specific ship builds anyway)?
Click to expand...
I like multi-role. If I go exploring in the black I want to be able to some other things as well. No need to have everything optimised and specialised. I can mine or SRV at leisure to get some materials if it is not grinding for some goal.
An indirect answer to your post: I never tried interdiction, rescue scenarios and many other aspects of the game. Because I never carry the required equipment, since the main roles of my ships are something different.
I understand the balance aspect, the question is where to put its axle.
 

wabboo

wabboo
badibeat said:
I like multi-role. If I go exploring in the black I want to be able to some other things as well. No need to have everything optimised and specialised. I can mine or SRV at leisure to get some materials if it is not grinding for some goal.
An indirect answer to your post: I never tried interdiction, rescue scenarios and many other aspects of the game. Because I never carry the required equipment, since the main roles of my ships are something different.
I understand the balance aspect, the question is where to put its axle.
Click to expand...

This has given me an idea. If fuel transfer/repair limpets are the optimized/specialized version we're missing the unoptimized version for these operations.
  • Collector limpets
    The unoptimized version already exists: Manually scooping.
  • Decontamination limpets
    The unoptimized version already exists: Cooking your ship through silent running (or other means).
  • Fuel transfer
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Hatch breaker
    The unoptimized version already exists: Shoot the cargo hatch open.
  • Prospector
    This one is a bit tricky, because you can mine without it but the negatives are too big.
  • Recon
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Repair
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Research
    There is no unoptimized version and I'm not entirely sure what it would be.
Ship-to-ship docking
Since all ships have cargo hatches, these cargo hatches can also be used to dock with other ships. Once docked certain operations can be performed with the docked ship: Fuel transfer, hacking and some basic repairs (ship-to-ship commodity trading would also be a logical one). Docking would have to have an ship UI element (like the cargo scoop or the landing pad one) to help commanders line up the cargo hatches. The odyssey update could tie into this, by allowing commanders with docked ships to interact with each other.
 

badibeat

badibeat
Losco Nosciuto said:
The limpet gameplay is cool
Click to expand...
Agree. Below you can find an example of even cooler limpet gameplay, in my opinion. It is much in the OP's sense.

To be fair, Elite: Dangerous focuses much on manual actions (fly, aim, scoop yourself) and on limitations to force variety, which makes many things a bit tedious but plays an important role in skill build-up and long term playability. And it has a somewhat convoluted balancing in place which makes changes difficult to balance as well.

I played an Elite clone named Ceres. Believe me, it is much buggier than Elite: Dangerous, which ultimately led to its demise.
It plays in a small solar system, lacks respawning missions, is single player only, has a progression system a bit out of whack and got abandoned by the developer.
But I still very much enjoyed the game and its atmosphere.
It allows to control a wing of up to 5 ships but the flight of these in tandem is one of things that the dev failed to really fix.

That game calls limpets drones and has universal Drone Controllers (including the most expensive module in the game) which can control a limited number of drones each, depending on size and quality. The drones themselves are specialised and use 1 cargo space like in Elite, but do not expire until destroyed. Drones and ammo and some modules can also be synthesised, requiring a blueprint for each type, a powered Factory Module (fits only large slots in large ships), materials in the cargo hold and build time. (Ammo requires space in the cargo hold.)

You can select individual drones to give them orders (return, collect, attack etc.) and share their view.
Utility Drones laser mine by themselves and bring the materials to the ship, collect cargo and repair ships for materials, can interact with some things and can be used to slowly move other ships.
Boarding Drones break slowly into enemy ships or stations to battle with the crew and allow you take control of the ship (low health of the ship helps, requires quite a number of drones) or to rescue people in a few missions. To get the best ships you have to enter restricted territory and capture ships there.
Laser, Plasma, Cannon and Missile drones can be ordered to circle and attack an enemy ship or station. The latter two return periodically to your ship to load ammo from your cargo hold. They do less damage than ship weapons with the same ammo, but you can have quite a few of them.
Point Defence drones circle your ship(s) and shoot at missiles and torpedoes (and probably enemy drones).
Recon Drones can be sent to provide vision on remote areas.
 
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Hydrino

Hydrino
wabboo said:
This has given me an idea. If fuel transfer/repair limpets are the optimized/specialized version we're missing the unoptimized version for these operations.
  • Collector limpets
    The unoptimized version already exists: Manually scooping.
  • Decontamination limpets
    The unoptimized version already exists: Cooking your ship through silent running (or other means).
  • Fuel transfer
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Hatch breaker
    The unoptimized version already exists: Shoot the cargo hatch open.
  • Prospector
    This one is a bit tricky, because you can mine without it but the negatives are too big.
  • Recon
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Repair
    There is no unoptimized version, suggestion: Ship-to-Ship docking (see below).
  • Research
    There is no unoptimized version and I'm not entirely sure what it would be.
Ship-to-ship docking
Since all ships have cargo hatches, these cargo hatches can also be used to dock with other ships. Once docked certain operations can be performed with the docked ship: Fuel transfer, hacking and some basic repairs (ship-to-ship commodity trading would also be a logical one). Docking would have to have an ship UI element (like the cargo scoop or the landing pad one) to help commanders line up the cargo hatches. The odyssey update could tie into this, by allowing commanders with docked ships to interact with each other.
Click to expand...
Ship to ship docking was mentioned in the original design documents and perhaps the last one, iirc, on fuel, has several golden nuggets including ship to ship docking to transfer fuel. I hope the fuel design doc is more fully implemented when atmospheres come about.

Lacking that, as stated in above post, there is no un-optomized version for it or several other activities/roles. FD hopefully continue to focus on expanding core gameplay already there (like rescue and salvage and piracy and smuggling), even as part of Odyssey, but if not at least as next free update prior to 2023 paid expansion?
 

badibeat

badibeat
wabboo said:
This has given me an idea. If fuel transfer/repair limpets are the optimized/specialized version we're missing the unoptimized version for these operations.
....
Click to expand...
Excellent suggestions!

For slow laser mining you don't really need a prospector, as the problem is not the yield (fragments expire), but to identify the material content. You have to hit the asteroid with a mining laser to asses its content. The fragments and materials appear in your contacts.
However, if you want to gather more than just materials for synthesis and engineering, then you will need a refinery (which is ok and not part of the OP).
 
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Sylow

Sylow
wabboo said:
[...]
Click to expand...

I would not mind this suggestion at all. There's really only one reason why i would rather have fuel transfer and repair limpet controllers built into the ship: that's already existing game mechanics. We have it, it works. Add them in the same way we have the planetary landing gear and we're good to go.

Ship to ship docking it something FD would have to develop from the start. And while it sounds simple enough on an NPC in need of help, players will then soon enough also want to be able to support other players with those methods. And then things can get dirty: how to handle two player ships docking? Will one be immobilized? How to prevent it being abused? Do you implement a handshake and acceptance mechanic?

It sure can all be solved. But it's clearly more work than just slapping the limpet controllers on the ships and be done for. Considering the current state of the game, i fear that this it the best we can hope for within the scope of several years. :(

So yes, what you write would, if implemented properly, be much better than just having some limpet controllers built in. I just don't see something as complex as that happening.
 

Suraknar

S
Well, not my intention to be insulting to anyone, but I am not going to sugar coat it either, I simply and honestly feel that current Limpet system isn't cool at all.

Why is this Game mechanic so un-intuitive clunky and primitive I wonder. Really does a Limpet weight 1 ton too? At least we should have had Limpet Packages, like 100 Limpet Package take 1 ton of your cargo space in the current system. And I wonder too why there are separate controllers for simple actions, it seems like a redundant filler solution to have something different to outfit ships with for a specific role. When this particular system could be Universal, one just needs to program the Limpets for a particular task.

Alternatively,

I wonder...did anyone ever heard of Robots and Drones in the 4th Millennium? That is all you need in Space a Robotic Drone that you can Program for a given task have it do it and then recover it for another use later on.

So my Suggestion would be to have different Classes of Universal Controller that COntain Reusable Robot Drones (and have slight higher weaght thyan now), that can be programmed on demand for specific tasks.

Maybe the Robotic Drones can be damaged from from AOE? Or Wear and TEar, maybe they require some maintenance and refueling when in use? So using the Ships Energy and Fuel in due time etc. And if not recovered or damaged then will need to be replaced.

But this way the Cargo is not used for them as it is used now for Limpets and they are not one time use....in the 4th millennium even.

o7
 
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