The galaxy map commodities filter is unusable due to showing inaccurate prices

[Nickolai]

I am getting bait-and-switched with the commodities market screen, as well as the galaxy map commodities filter. It will report a certain price, then when I dock, the price is much lower.

Only AFTER I dock at each station, suddenly the galaxy map pricing updates.

I understand that if you have more than 25% of the demand for a commodity, you get hit with the bulk sales tax. But for some reason, the galaxy map and market screen don't take this into account until you dock at each station.

Has FDev forgotten to integrate the bulk sales tax with the galaxy map?

I'm trying to use in-game tools to find the best price, but not even these tools are accurate. Someone please explain how I am supposed to do any kind of trading if the in-game tools are not showing accurate prices....


I wrote a ticket for this, it would be nice if we can get it confirmed (please add your comment if you've seen this issue) https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/18209

 

[MarkAusten]

If I understand correctly, and that's by no means certain, the supply/demand of H3 is now active as well as the regeneration rate of H3 at stations no longer being infinite, so stocks take time to build up again instead of instantly gong back to what they were before.

So, if you see a price in the game tools, or the third party tools and it is in a place where it is being traded a lot, then the prices will have changed when you get there.

Or something like that.

 

[Bottom Hat]

Definitely a "bait and switch" by evil developers trolling the players who paid real money for their game.

What's with this phrase? Why not just say it's wrong? Is this a reddit-ism for young people language?

 

[Nickolai]

So, if you see a price in the game tools, or the third party tools and it is in a place where it is being traded a lot, then the prices will have changed when you get there.

I was above the landing pad, about to dock. Checked the galaxy map - price was high. 2 seconds later I touched down. Checked the galaxy map, the price was much lower.

This feels like some kind of bug, or poor implementation.

Definitely a "bait and switch" by evil developers trolling the players who paid real money for their game.

It's not a bait-and-switch by the devs. It's a bait-and-switch by the orbital starport.

The in-game tool says the price is 100k. As soon as I dock, the price is 50k, and the in-game tools magically updated. It's a bug.

 

[goemon]

I understand that if you have more than 25% of the demand for a commodity, you get hit with the bulk sales tax.

the number is much, much lower.

Bulk Sale Fee? Hidden Tax For Traders?

That wouldn't be a problem, more of a penalty for oversupplying a market........ ....... but 2000 of them? What in the name of Leathery Eggs are you flying? G The Human Type9ipede?

forums.frontier.co.uk

tldr: furrycat tested back then that you already get hit by it at 2 tons with 1/600 of demand, albeit just with 0,05% (!) hit.

 

[MarkAusten]

I was above the landing pad, about to dock. Checked the galaxy map - price was high. 2 seconds later I touched down. Checked the galaxy map, the price was much lower.

This feels like some kind of bug, or poor implementation.



It's not a bait-and-switch by the devs. It's a bait-and-switch by the orbital starport.

The in-game tool says the price is 100k. As soon as I dock, the price is 50k, and the in-game tools magically updated. It's a bug.

Doesn't sound right but perhaps it is a bit like the EDMC thing that doesn't update anything until you dock. So your in-game values are not current until you connect to the station services?

Grasping at straws here. It's possibly a bug.

 

[Nickolai]

the number is much, much lower.

Sure. Whatever the number is, all I'm asking for is that the galaxy map shows accurate numbers based on my current state. If I have 200 tons of cargo, then I open the galaxy map and start checking import prices, it should show what I would get if I docked right now. Otherwise I fly to the station, and can't tell if I get hit by the tax until I dock.

So your in-game values are not current until you connect to the station services?

This is exactly what's happening.

 

[MarkAusten]

Sure. Whatever the number is, all I'm asking for is that the galaxy map shows accurate numbers based on my current state. If I have 200 tons of cargo, then I open the galaxy map and start checking import prices, it should show what I would get if I docked right now. Otherwise I fly to the station, and can't tell if I get hit by the tax until I dock.



This is exactly what's happening.

Sounds like it might be working as intended then, but that's a real PITA!

 

[Tividar]

the number is much, much lower.

Bulk Sale Fee? Hidden Tax For Traders?

That wouldn't be a problem, more of a penalty for oversupplying a market........ ....... but 2000 of them? What in the name of Leathery Eggs are you flying? G The Human Type9ipede?

forums.frontier.co.uk

tldr: furrycat tested back then that you already get hit by it at 2 tons with 1/600 of demand, albeit just with 0,05% (!) hit.

This isn't consistent. I ran an LTD run a few days days ago at a station advertising around 2,600 demand. I started at the 5% mark, increasing each run until I hit 25%. There was no change in sales price until I breached 25%. Of course I've also encountered the bulk tax at 5%... I haven't been able to identify any patterns accept that it appears binary - it either kicks in at 5% or it kicks in at 25%.

 

[Nickolai]

Sounds like it might be working as intended then, but that's a real PITA!

I can't believe it's working as intended...it feels like an oversight. What use is the galaxy map and the commodities market "also consumed by" table if it only lists the price if I have zero cargo...and it doesn't even show the demand. Perhaps if it showed the demand, I could make my own estimation if I'd be hit by the tax, and how much cargo to bring with me. But as it stands, it only lists the price. And it's a big disappointment to find a market that will buy my commodity, load it up, then realize that I didn't have all the information I needed (and there was no way to get this information).

 

[goemon]

This isn't consistent. I ran an LTD run a few days days ago at a station advertising around 2,600 demand. I started at the 5% mark, increasing each run until I hit 25%. There was no change in sales price until I breached 25%. Of course I've also encountered the bulk tax at 5%... I haven't been able to identify any patterns accept that it appears binary - it either kicks in at 5% or it kicks in at 25%.

i won't claim consistency. but as i currently run backgroundsimulation tests including prices (means: i notice whether i get the planned 1501 cr/t profit or "just" 1488) kicks in at 5% or kicks in at 25% doesn't meet my expoerience either. i have been "hit" by it at less than 5%, for exampel yesterday at 4,80%. as you are hit in relation what you have in cargo, not what you sell (!), there is not really a good way around that (i could destroy cargo, to get the profit per t up).

I can't believe it's working as intended...it feels like an oversight. What use is the galaxy map and the commodities market "also consumed by" table if it only lists the price if I have zero cargo...and it doesn't even show the demand. Perhaps if it showed the demand, I could make my own estimation if I'd be hit by the tax, and how much cargo to bring with me. But as it stands, it only lists the price. And it's a big disappointment to find a market that will buy my commodity, load it up, then realize that I didn't have all the information I needed (and there was no way to get this information).

i think, some are that long around here, that the possibility to see roundabout prices ingame already is received as a QOL feature. before that, you anyway didn't know what you'll get, so nobody noticed.
i personally would love, as you, to see the prices according at least to my current load. if that isn't possible (server requests, as that would change with tonnage you buy and such), i would at least need to see the demand somewhere upfront. if i could see, agronomic has a demand of 6, i might not load up 250 tons of it to bring it to the outpost.

btw. - if you like to see something something really fun, compare galactic average right hand panel to galactic average in the commodity market...

 

[Bottom Hat]

@Nickolai as far as I understand it, for the station's market prices to be accurate, you need to dock.

That might sound stupid, but it works like the Inara price update thing. So you go to a station, and let's just say you're running an A-B loop multiple times. You might have yesterday's price in the ship log, but it will have changed a little since you were last there.

So, if you come straight back in a few minutes, it's unlikely to differ much. But, if it's a few hours or longer, it could have changed a lot more.

For example, if you have checked the LTD price, and it has been several hours since you went there, there could have been a) changes to bgs states that grant huge prices, and b) ten thousand miners selling, so pushing the demand through the floor, this the price drops a bit.

Now, consider this is not about diamonds, it's about regular non-bgs commodities: every other player trading at the station will have probably bought or sold the same as you, thus affecting demand, pushing prices in the relevant direction. Now, further consider that NPCs do the same, in much higher quantities than players. The result is the same, but probably with a bigger skew on prices.

So, as your ship log of prices isn't a live stream of station prices, you can see how they can probably change a bit in the time you're away from the station. Moreso if you have let a bgs tick pass. And especially if your target commodity is affected by the state.


Therefore, this is why it is unusual for you to get the exact price advertised by the commodity comparison tool, and why it uses the approximation mathematical symbol for profit.

I'm not saying it is right, I'm just trying to explain it to you - but it is not meant to be a live price guide, as designed. It's supposed to be a guide and leave trading risk-reward up to the player.

I hope this makes sense, and sorry I can't explain it in a more concise manner, as it's not simple to explain. Good luck cmdr,

The Hat



PS - when I asked what you meant by bait and switch, I meant what does this weird phrase actually mean? Is it like nerf, which is subjectively used to mean whatever the author chooses, not the principle behind it!

 

[Tividar]

i won't claim consistency. but as i currently run background simulation tests including prices (means: i notice whether i get the planned 1501 cr/t profit or "just" 1488) kicks in at 5% or kicks in at 25% doesn't meet my experience either. i have been "hit" by it at less than 5%, for example yesterday at 4,80%. as you are hit in relation what you have in cargo, not what you sell (!), there is not really a good way around that (i could destroy cargo, to get the profit per t up).

FWIW - I ran a delivery with 120 t of cargo and got 1.7xxxx. Went and grabbed another 130t and delivered. Repeated this in increments up to a cargo size of not more than 25% of demand. At 4.8% that's explainable as a rounding function. I'd be curious to hear of someone getting hit at 2 or 3%.

 

[goemon]

FWIW - I ran a delivery with 120 t of cargo and got 1.7xxxx. Went and grabbed another 130t and delivered. Repeated this in increments up to a cargo size of not more than 25% of demand. At 4.8% that's explainable as a rounding function. I'd be curious to hear of someone getting hit at 2 or 3%.

there is a very good thread of factabolous on this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/bulk-tax-investigation-in-3-6.536814/
(more recent than furrycats testing in 2015 i quoted above, who said he has been hit at 0,05%).

factas numbers above show, that the amount of cargo where tax hits differs from commodity to commoduts, independent from demand. for me those two sources are good enough to file it under "inconsistent".

 

[Nickolai]

You might have yesterday's price in the ship log, but it will have changed a little since you were last there.

I get what you're saying...but I don't agree that my ship log has "yesterday's" information (in this case).

In the icebox mining, I was using the galaxy map to find carriers buying LTDs, and I found it to be pretty accurate. Aka Carrier XYZ is buying for this price, I show up there, and the price was correct. I had never docked at that carrier before.

I think the intention is that the market data is always available for you, if you've ever docked in that system. I believe the "ship log of prices" actually is intended to be a live stream, since it works that way in every case - it's just that it doesn't take into account the bulk sales tax.

 

[Bottom Hat]

I get what you're saying...but I don't agree that my ship log has "yesterday's" information (in this case).

In the icebox mining, I was using the galaxy map to find carriers buying LTDs, and I found it to be pretty accurate. Aka Carrier XYZ is buying for this price, I show up there, and the price was correct. I had never docked at that carrier before.

I think the intention is that the market data is always available for you, if you've ever docked in that system. I believe the "ship log of prices" actually is intended to be a live stream, since it works that way in every case - it's just that it doesn't take into account the bulk sales tax.

I get your point totally, but carriers are totally independent of the bgs, so aren't subject to market changes by NPCs. Also, the price set by the owner is totally fixed, whereas the stations are subject to passing traffic from both players and NPCs. And I don't mean bgs as in the influence etc, I mean the overall simulation that goes on.

I'd read that this is why there are price fluctuations when the game was new, and the new market comparison tool was introduced, as it hasn't always been there.

It was introduced as a guide tool as opposed to being an exact representation of true up-to-date prices. So there has always been this variation and fluctuation in the numbers shown. I guess it's possible that it's coded to not be exact to prices, but that's the cynic in me thinking as such?!

Anyway, I just wanted to pass on what I've read in the past, and there are a bunch of bgs wizards here like @goemon above who put a lot of time and effort into figuring these things out. Not saying that Goemon is responsible for this answer! Just that a lot goes into trying to decipher what FD do with all their mysterious bgs things iykwim?!

I hope this helps explain the difference between stations and FC prices if nothing else? I guess it's also worth noting that FC trades don't respond to bgs tick events either, but that's a different level of complicated jiggery-pokery lol!

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

PS - when I asked what you meant by bait and switch, I meant what does this weird phrase actually mean? Is it like nerf, which is subjectively used to mean whatever the author chooses, not the principle behind it!

Spoiler: Nerf

"Nerf" is a brand of harmless toys with spongy projectiles.
It was co-opted in the 90's on the Vault UO game forums to describe the weakening of magic spells by game developers, by irate PK's.
Corp por used to mean insta death, so resistance to magic was adjusted.

Nerf now refers to pretty much any negative change

.

just some useless game history from an old UO player.

"Bait and Switch" is an illegal commercial practise where a vendor claims to be selling a high demand good, but attempts to foist substitutes upon the customers.

 

[Bottom Hat]

Spoiler: Nerf

"Nerf" is a brand of harmless toys with spongy projectiles.
It was co-opted in the 90's on the Vault UO game forums to describe the weakening of magic spells by game developers, by irate PK's.
Corp por used to mean insta death, so resistance to magic was adjusted.

Nerf now refers to pretty much any negative change

.

just some useless game history from an old UO player.

"Bait and Switch" is an illegal commercial practise where a vendor claims to be selling a high demand good, but attempts to foist substitutes upon the customers.

Gotcha, cheers for the answer mate

 

[Strangepork]

I am getting bait-and-switched with the commodities market screen, as well as the galaxy map commodities filter. It will report a certain price, then when I dock, the price is much lower.

Only AFTER I dock at each station, suddenly the galaxy map pricing updates.

I understand that if you have more than 25% of the demand for a commodity, you get hit with the bulk sales tax. But for some reason, the galaxy map and market screen don't take this into account until you dock at each station.

Has FDev forgotten to integrate the bulk sales tax with the galaxy map?

I'm trying to use in-game tools to find the best price, but not even these tools are accurate. Someone please explain how I am supposed to do any kind of trading if the in-game tools are not showing accurate prices....


I wrote a ticket for this, it would be nice if we can get it confirmed (please add your comment if you've seen this issue) https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/18209

This is an issue worthy of attention from this forum and the developers

 

[MarkAusten]

Spoiler: Nerf

"Nerf" is a brand of harmless toys with spongy projectiles.
It was co-opted in the 90's on the Vault UO game forums to describe the weakening of magic spells by game developers, by irate PK's.
Corp por used to mean insta death, so resistance to magic was adjusted.

Nerf now refers to pretty much any negative change

.

just some useless game history from an old UO player.

"Bait and Switch" is an illegal commercial practise where a vendor claims to be selling a high demand good, but attempts to foist substitutes upon the customers.

Many thanks for this explanation. I've wondered about both.