I still hate the new style of exploration even after adjusting to it.

[Zieman]

IMO an easy solution to the OPs dilemma would be to have all bodies in a system show up in system map as the basic unexplored when honked and only name the bodies with a full FSS scan to get all the relevant data and any relevant name tags.
I think best of both worlds, or is that too simple.

All too reasonable, for FDEV to even think about it.

 

[WhoCares]

IMO an easy solution to the OPs dilemma would be to have all bodies in a system show up in system map as the basic unexplored when honked and only name the bodies with a full FSS scan to get all the relevant data and any relevant name tags.
I think best of both worlds, or is that too simple.

I seem to remember in one of the open beta test iterations leading up to the FSS, there was a bug in which the honk revealed all bodies in the system map with their placements, but as empty shells. Thus you were not able to exactly tell what kind of body it was, simply by the texture of it.
Quite some people liked it that way - the honk established body locations and orbits, the FSS was then used to properly identify them.
Even though with the bug it was not exactly like that, as you still had to search for the blobs in the FSS, because the orbits and positions were not revealed.

 

[Vithigar]

I seem to remember in one of the open beta test iterations leading up to the FSS, there was a bug in which the honk revealed all bodies in the system map with their placements, but as empty shells. Thus you were not able to exactly tell what kind of body it was, simply by the texture of it.
Quite some people liked it that way - the honk established body locations and orbits, the FSS was then used to properly identify them.
Even though with the bug it was not exactly like that, as you still had to search for the blobs in the FSS, because the orbits and positions were not revealed.

I remember this, and was genuinely surprised it was not intended behaviour.

 

[marx]

The "gray bodies on the system map" bug in a beta was way before the Beyond season, before there was any talk of changing exploration gameplay. A small minority of people liked the bug and lobbied FD to keep it as a feature, but when Michael Brookes or Sandro Sammarco (can't remember which) said that he's leaning towards doing that, a lot of folks were upset and there was quite an uproar. Thankfully, he changed his mind.

Now, when FD revealed how the FSS is going to work, plenty of people suggested that this would be returned. After all, now we'd have the information on the FSS barcode to go with, so in this case, it would actually have been an improvement. Frontier ignored this suggestion too, of course.
I don't remember this appearing in any of the Beyond Chapter Four open betas though.


As for @Old Duck : as far as I know, it wasn't the lead designer who designed the FSS (there is no such position as "lead developer" on Elite). Mr. Sammarco who was just leaving back then just set some guidelines for doing something other than the ADS. The FSS was designed and implemented by someone else, and okayed by then-lead designer Adam Bourke-Waite. He doubled down on things after all the negative feedback... but if it was personal, then that shouldn't be an issue either, as he's no longer with Frontier.

As I've said plenty of times before, Frontier could do better than either the ADS or the FSS. While some fans seem to think that you have to like and defend the FSS, the truth is that it has plenty of issues which need fixing, and that's regardless of what came before it.
Sure, you could slap a bandaid on it by putting the ADS back in as an optional / exclusive module, or with gray bodies on the system map, but neither would solve everything. At the end of the day, the current exploration core gameplay loop would need a careful and thorough redesign and reimplementation, and not the rushed and sloppy update we got in Chapter Four.
Well, that's assuming Frontier cared about improving exploration, of course. Personally, I think the only thing keeping it going is Elite being the only game with a realistic 1:1 scale recreation of our galaxy. As long as Frontier doesn't thoroughly mess exploring that up, and as long as there's no competition there, there will still be some players exploring.

 

[Jackie Silver]

Personally, I think the only thing keeping it going is Elite being the only game with a realistic 1:1 scale recreation of our galaxy. As long as Frontier doesn't thoroughly mess exploring that up, and as long as there's no competition there, there will still be some players exploring.

Yes. That and some good pew-pew spaceship blasting (I prefer Elite's take on space combat to any of the current competitors I've tried, though I realise I'm habituated to Elite.)

 

[Old Duck]

At the end of the day, the current exploration core gameplay loop would need a careful and thorough redesign and reimplementation, and not the rushed and sloppy update we got in Chapter Four.

What would that be? Would not any game loop grow boring after the first 100 systems? I actually like the FSS, but even I have grown bored with the mechanics. I suspect this is due to just how much I've used the darn thing since it was introduced - countless, countless times.

Personally, I think the only thing keeping it going is Elite being the only game with a realistic 1:1 scale recreation of our galaxy.

That and the shared nature of our galaxy. There's a sense of teamwork (and competition) even when exploring all alone, knowing that we're all working together to uncover the mysteries in this one huge shared universe. That's something I just don't get from other games. NMS is probably the closest game to offering me this experience, but its galaxy is TOO big and too "fake".

 

[Snowymonk]

I suspect this is due to just how much I've used the darn thing since it was introduced - countless, countless times.

That and the shared nature of our galaxy. There's a sense of teamwork (and competition) even when exploring all alone, knowing that we're all working together to uncover the mysteries in this one huge shared universe. That's something I just don't get from other games. NMS is probably the closest game to offering me this experience, but its galaxy is TOO big and too "fake".

I agree that the FSS scanner mechanic is not the most engaging. It is better than the simple honk we had before but in my view is actually disruptive when out in the black passing through all those systems that have already been found by other players.
Frontier should join up the discovery of new systems for everyone so that if someone has been in a system previously and cashed in the discoveries, other players do not need to do the same, the system map is already datafilled..
The extension of this will be that if a system is not populated, then the FSS actually adds value.

We are in a ship that can both message and multi-crew across the whole galaxy but it can't update a computer to tell it that the system that you are about to jump to has three planets orbiting a binary??!?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I agree that the FSS scanner mechanic is not the most engaging. It is better than the simple honk we had before but in my view is actually disruptive when out in the black passing through all those systems that have already been found by other players.
Frontier should join up the discovery of new systems for everyone so that if someone has been in a system previously and cashed in the discoveries, other players do not need to do the same, the system map is already datafilled..
The extension of this will be that if a system is not populated, then the FSS actually adds value.

We are in a ship that can both message and multi-crew across the whole galaxy but it can't update a computer to tell it that the system that you are about to jump to has three planets orbiting a binary??!?

I'd be even more annoyed about not being able to explore a system just because someone else has been there than I was about being force-fed undiscovered bodies by the FSS.

 

[marx]

What would that be? Would not any game loop grow boring after the first 100 systems?

As I said, it would require a careful and thorough redesign, so I hope you aren't expecting me to actually answer your first question here. As for the second one, you appear to be assuming that the core exploration gameplay loop should be body scanning. Should it really? That's an important question for a redesign already. (Especially since body scanning now involves not flying your ship, which is the core of Elite, but adjusting a slider then pointing a camera and clicking.)

Oh, and of course, you can design gameplay that doesn't grow boring after the first hundred games, that keeps interested people interested. I think you could name some even from Elite, let alone other games.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

As I said, it would require a careful and thorough redesign, so I hope you aren't expecting me to actually answer your first question here. As for the second one, you appear to be assuming that the core exploration gameplay loop should be body scanning. Should it really? That's an important question for a redesign already. (Especially since body scanning now involves not flying your ship, which is the core of Elite, but adjusting a slider then pointing a camera and clicking.)

Oh, and of course, you can design gameplay that doesn't grow boring after the first hundred games, that keeps interested people interested. I think you could name some even from Elite, let alone other games.

One of the strangest things is that Frontier and many of the players seem to be in the corridor of 'more doors' is better, what I mean by that is FDev laid down a play plan where everything must be done quickly and move on the the next exact same task, kick the door open look inside (see nowt) run to the next door and kick that in... over and over, I feel that from the outset it should have been the opposite, where 'Old Duck' talks about the first 100 systems... well, yeah, that's the path I'm talking about, it shouldn't be like that, there should be something interesting to keep the player in the vicinity for longer... not just a few minutes, but hours or days, weeks even, exploration should be interesting/exciting, just as shooting stuff should be, just as mining and trading should be, but FDev went the way of the numbers, MOAR

Who doesn't like finding things? when you enter a system to explore it there should be an proper intent to explore it... and there should be enough care taken by FDev to give you plenty to find... if not 'bounce guy' get nothing... "I can tell you about the petrol station but that's all dude"
Scanning should not be all inclusive with the magic Ronco scanner, it should be done in many stages with the player desiring to make visual and physical examinations of the many planets and moons, plotting asteroid belts for navigational hazards, comets and other moving but persistent objects, each task in a field of it's own, checking for various mineral deposits for mining rights, a marginal percentage from a 'mega-corp' and , later perhaps checking the vegetation for special properties/nutritional values, there's a pile of equipment that could be added to create gameplay in just exploration, making an Exploration ship a true explorer not just a featherweight long distance hopper.

But, you can't just do exploration, Everything needs a really deep rethink, Combat... that should take longer with more options including boarding, Merchant trips into the black to set up contracts for trade not just trucking, Mining... NO I don't think individuals with a big ship should be so rich... that's daft... all these triple hotspots of mega'inium should deplete and never respawn, a mega-corp would soon find a way to get sole rights to such riches...

But I really can't see it happening, what we're gonna get is more 'gamey gamey' things to siphon more bucks from the ever increasing gaming market.

 

[space voyager]

Man, this debate is still ongoing...

So that not only naysayers will populate it; I love the new system. Not perfect, but ok. As for everything said - NOT seeing the whole system layout in a sec is its main purpose. It does it well and I'm against any change in that respect.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Man, this debate is still ongoing...

So that not only naysayers will populate it; I love the new system. Not perfect, but ok. As for everything said - NOT seeing the whole system layout in a sec is its main purpose. It does it well and I'm against any change in that respect.

Well, knowing Frontier, you don't have to worry about any changes to exploration for years.

 

[Snowymonk]

I'd be even more annoyed about not being able to explore a system just because someone else has been there than I was about being force-fed undiscovered bodies by the FSS.

I was just talking about not needing to honk

 

[space voyager]

Well, knowing Frontier, you don't have to worry about any changes to exploration for years.

True. Sometimes that is a good thing. Rarely, but it happens.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Man, this debate is still ongoing...

So that not only naysayers will populate it; I love the new system. Not perfect, but ok. As for everything said - NOT seeing the whole system layout in a sec is its main purpose. It does it well and I'm against any change in that respect.

I'm curious. How many times do you estimate you've used the FSS on unexplored systems?

 

[space voyager]

I'm curious. How many times do you estimate you've used the FSS on unexplored systems?

Ehm, we're talking hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands. I don't know how many. I've been to Beagle Point, three times to Sagittarius A*, twice to Colonia, went to distant regions of the galaxy (now I know where The Void got its name ) and to all kinds of nebulae. Traveling though unexplored systems whenever available. All but one trip to SagA* were with the FSS.

That said, I'm not totally obsessed by scanning systems to completion. More often than not I will, but if I see there are five icy balls around a red dwarf... I will sometimes simply jump on.

 

[Pirin]

Ehm, we're talking hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands. I don't know how many. I've been to Beagle Point, three times to Sagittarius A*, twice to Colonia, went to distant regions of the galaxy (now I know where The Void got its name ) and to all kinds of nebulae. Traveling though unexplored systems whenever available. All but one trip to SagA* were with the FSS.

That said, I'm not totally obsessed by scanning systems to completion. More often than not I will, but if I see there are five icy balls around a red dwarf... I will sometimes simply jump on.

There are others who are obsessed with knowing what they discovered in the system they just jumped in. Because, well, thats why they are exploring. And many of them are not happy with this pointless time sink. Especially those with tens of thousands scanned systems. Not hundreds.
But it seems it is so easy to get entrenched in this "i like it, therefore it is good" logic.

 

[Northpin]

I'm curious. How many times do you estimate you've used the FSS on unexplored systems?

On each and everyone of them
Must be my OCD, but i cant stand to see "Unexplored" in the nav panel (for the previously explored by others) or to be announced that there are 20 bodies in the system and i see less than 20 on the system map.

 

[space voyager]

There are others who are obsessed with knowing what they discovered in the system they just jumped in. Because, well, thats why they are exploring. And many of them are not happy with this pointless time sink. Especially those with tens of thousands scanned systems. Not hundreds.
But it seems it is so easy to get entrenched in this "i like it, therefore it is good" logic.

Yes, tens of thousands... More of a jumping than exploration. Even hundreds should be too much.

I understand the essence of this ongoing debate. It is not about WHAT the obsessed discovered - this is more or less known at the honk, just look at the spectrum and you'll see the general composition. It is WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE (in a 2D system map at that). That's the scary part. A lot of explorers are after interesting looking system maps and this is why they want at least "unpopulated" version of it. If it is interesting enough, they'd take the time to FSS it.

It is not "I like it" logic. MOST explorers agreed that some work needs to be put into the act of exploration. This is why FD changed the system in the first place, because to most the honk revelation was just... well, revelation and not exploration. FSS brought that work in (IMO) more or less the right amount. If the majority would be unhappy, the debate would be far worse than it is. And it was. The ones still moaning are entrenched in "I don't like it, therefore it is bad" logic.

So if the system was to be changed, I would not consider dropping the extra work needed but what would we replace it with. Something more fun to do would be great - people proposed another kind of mini game (a-la interception) that would take you long before you got to know it and short after - perhaps not dependent on the number of bodies in the system. I'm cool with that.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I've long stopped wasting my time with the perma whiners, so...
with that in mind, move on and have no fun. bye

Yeah, but you just know you love coming back for a little dig, these threads are all the same but so magnetic aren't they FF