Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[Leper Messiah]

In a mode with no rules you expect them. Thats the definition of stupid. This consideration (as pointed out in the advertising blurb) overrides all other considerations:

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For those who's eyesight at 70 is impaired or focal length is not yet developed at 7, please digest this part:

View attachment 184235

Your 'playstyle' is a distraction from actual minute to minute survival. Ignore this simple premise and you wind up dead.



Its a hub that offers all ships, an engineer, is opened up when you reach Elite- thats three alarm bells already.



Forget about any security providing any security if you fly ships that are destroyed in seconds. Any protection requires a ship to be built to withstand at least a minute of combat, or know how to evade / select HW destination.



Really? If most people could evade then there would be no problem. People instead whine about "why me?" when they need to strategize better. Walking into a known dangerous area in a slow, tinfoil ship is not good strategy.



You can play how you like, however you have to be prepared. Its not a hard concept to master unless you are willfully ignorant of the risks.



Whats so hard to understand? The advertising says as much, so why are you suggesting its wrong? Avoid combat by either going somewhere else, having a ship that can run, or use another mode. Avoiding combat doers not mean you have to go around in a combat ship.

Hotel california pulls me back in....it's like a black hole!

1) There ARE rules, TOS etc....even "fair play" netiquette stuff. There's a "spirit of the game" that a LOT of PvPers (the gankers and greifers) crap on IMO. And ALL I'm saying is to the greifers and gankers stop bleating about their victims slagging them off, deal with it like they expect people to deal with what they are doing.

2) It's not "my" playstyle, I'm exploring (well I was, on another long break) in an armed python with a jump range of 22 ly. I'm just capable of empathising with others playstyles.

3) It's a PF controlled area, in "Lore" the PF clearly do not tolerate "Dishonourable" members the blurb you so love says "Rogue" and "betrayed"...why on fricken earth would an organisation like that allow what happens in open? It just makes no sense to me and turns Elite into COD in space. It just makes a COMPLETE mockery of the lore and the writing associated with the game IMO.

4) I wasn't on about someones ability to survive to the point of the security coming in, I'm on about security being "proactive", we can scan all new arrivals in the system, so should security and anyone suspicious should be investigated, I mean it's what security does nowadays for heavens sake.

5) Thing is some areas should NOT be dangerous. They're only dangerous because PvPers crap on the Lore and exploit the lax rules.

6) Ignorance and stupidity has nothing to do with it, denigrating the "other side" all the time just pretty much proves what everyone on the "other side" to you thinks.

7) I fully understand, I understand that many want COD in space, others want to immerse themselves in a living breathing Galaxy with a rich lore. The COD, pew pew, blow up ships people ruin the Lore.

Things is the two CAN co exist...IF the combat focussed people can show restraint and some common sense....but it's pretty clear a lot can't.

 

[Leper Messiah]

What would the consequences be if they got kicked out of PF? Would they ever be allowed a 2nd chance? In a world of indestructible FCs?

Consequences should be that they cannot enter PF space at all, PF stations KOS, With the influence the PF has more and more other stations in Hi sec systems should start to do like wise. There has to be longer term repurcussions for someone playing as a murder hobo. IMO

You can fly and play how you want, the open secret is if you do you have to not care if or how you lose your ship is all. Explo & Trader builds are fine if you don't care about getting blown up and have not much to lose or it doesnt matter. Gankers dont care or if they do they retreat to Solo and only come into Open with battle ready PVP OP ships. A lot of people dont retreat into solo but just dont care either way, we care more about someone trying to dictate what we do how we should fly and in particular how we should play our game to accomodate theirs including changing our builds to 'survive' this 'dystopian nightmare'.

None of this is to say we dont immerse ourselves in the game and gankers still are the reminder we are in the RW not in space but theyre not bothersome enough to make me change the game I play or the fun I have. Apparently theyre more scared of Open than I am because they go mat grinding and mining etc in Solo. I and a lot of people dont, we just dont think it means anything to say we play in Open as we do just treat it as a game.

When I play a game I immerse myself in the story and the game world and lore (It's the main reason I avoid MP as NOTHING destroys lore/story more than a human player!). It's more than just a game for many people and I suspect they are the ones who get most upset when something bad happens that's more Call of Duty gameplay than Elite?

edit got multiple quoting wrong!! fixed now.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Hotel california pulls me back in....it's like a black hole!

1) There ARE rules, TOS etc....even "fair play" netiquette stuff. There's a "spirit of the game" that a LOT of PvPers (the gankers and greifers) crap on IMO. And ALL I'm saying is to the greifers and gankers stop bleating about their victims slagging them off, deal with it like they expect people to deal with what they are doing.

I've shown you the 'rules' and 'the spirit of the game'- everything else is made up by people. The TOS covers bullying and stalking, which is you repeatedly following and killing people, singling them out and harassing them over and over.

What is 'this spirit of the game?'

Nowhere does it say "as an explorer, you get to avoid all danger and stare at balls all day".

2) It's not "my" playstyle, I'm exploring (well I was, on another long break) in an armed python with a jump range of 22 ly. I'm just capable of empathising with others playstyles.

You are playing inside a mode thats hostile by nature- so whatever "playstyle" you indulge in is shaped by that.

3) It's a PF controlled area, in "Lore" the PF clearly do not tolerate "Dishonourable" members the blurb you so love says "Rogue" and "betrayed"...why on fricken earth would an organisation like that allow what happens in open? It just makes no sense to me and turns Elite into COD in space. It just makes a COMPLETE mockery of the lore and the writing associated with the game IMO.

What if, the PF actually want people who can survive? Maybe the PF are more Darwinian in nature than you think.

4) I wasn't on about someones ability to survive to the point of the security coming in, I'm on about security being "proactive", we can scan all new arrivals in the system, so should security and anyone suspicious should be investigated, I mean it's what security does nowadays for heavens sake.

And sadly, this will never be because of short sighted design choices. There is no long approach to stations to allow scans, NAV points are vestigial in regular play, leaving only SC and ineffective interdiction that annoys people.

5) Thing is some areas should NOT be dangerous. They're only dangerous because PvPers crap on the Lore and exploit the lax rules.

And in a PvE context some places are very safe. Just not in Open. The dilemma is that without forcing players into Open to force people to work together to survive, you've created a situation where people use Solo as a crutch and allow balance issues to remain that make Open more hostile.

6) Ignorance and stupidity has nothing to do with it, denigrating the "other side" all the time just pretty much proves what everyone on the "other side" to you thinks.

Its stupid to assume the other person plays by the rules you do when there are no rules to begin with. Its ignorance to think Shin Dhez is safe, or Deciat. There is a wealth of knowledge that you can use to avoid most places, and remain safe- you just have to use it.

7) I fully understand, I understand that many want COD in space, others want to immerse themselves in a living breathing Galaxy with a rich lore. The COD, pew pew, blow up ships people ruin the Lore.

Things is the two CAN co exist...IF the combat focussed people can show restraint and some common sense....but it's pretty clear a lot can't.

You have it the wrong way round. Accept these people exist and deal with them. If enough people learn griefers starve. It just takes a proactive player rather than one who simply throws a fit. If you can't accept that, use PG or Solo where you can control who you meet, or in general play use block (but not in Powerplay sunshine).

 

[Leper Messiah]

I'm replying to this bit separately, as I want to make a clear distinction between my comments above about competitive PVP, the meta, CQC and so forth, and ganking.


Let's be even more real than that:
Ganking is done because a target presents itself.

There's no way to know who is going to drop into the system next - it truly is entirely unpredictable. It might be a newbie in a Cobra, and it might be Yamato in an FDL.

A lot of players who have never ganked may think that the gankers are lying in wait, and letting the "hard" targets go by while only preying on the "easy" ones. And, by your logic, the easier, the better.

Oh, to be so spoiled for choice.

The truth is this: if a "hard" target shows up - meaning someone with a high level combat build - they are likely going to be gankers themselves, and if not explicitly out looking for ganks, at least looking for 1v1s. They are almost certainly going to pull you regardless of whether or not you want it. Which, hey - fair play, right? You're a ganker, you get it.

Beyond that - you see the bandwidth spike, you identify the target, you pull them. You see what the surprise waiting in store for you is. It might be a Mostly Harmless in an Asp Explorer. It might be Yamato in an FDL. You literally have no way of knowing what's coming next, what they'll be flying, or what they will do. Or when they will get here.

So you wait. You see what the universe delivers up to you. And you pull it.

That's it. That's ganking target selection. You pull what appears.

We all know it's indescriminate...and that's the problem, there are tools to help combat focused players be a bit more reasonable in how they pick their targets (scanners).

Imagine going to a bar, and there's someone in the bar thinking "next effers comes in I'm gonna smack".....and you walk in the bar and get smacked.....now the context of the game is there should be nice safe bars (hi sec) and dives (low/no sec).....the premise I outlined first ONLY makes sense in the dive. Yes it "can" happen in more reputable bars but then there are serious repurcussions, arrest, banning etc. In Elite those repurcussions do not go far enough to discourage that sort of thing from happening. It shouldn't happen anywhere and everywhere, if a Hi sec system could NOT protect innocent parties in it's jurisdiction what do you think would happen? NO ONE would go there and it would decline until it became a "dive".

FD's mistake is literally making open a free for all as some take it too far and too literally. IMO. They should either make every open system an anarchy (thus spitting the shared galaxy conept) or do more to stop the indescriminate attacks where they shouldn't really happen (hi/med security). Just imagine if a notorious pirate sailed up the Thames into London......I don't think the authorities would wait for the pirate to commit a crime first, he'd be blown out of the water ASAP.

 

[Leper Messiah]

I've shown you the 'rules' and 'the spirit of the game'- everything else is made up by people. The TOS covers bullying and stalking, which is you repeatedly following and killing people, singling them out and harassing them over and over.

What is 'this spirit of the game?'

View attachment 184333

Nowhere does it say "as an explorer, you get to avoid all danger and stare at balls all day".



You are playing inside a mode thats hostile by nature- so whatever "playstyle" you indulge in is shaped by that.



What if, the PF actually want people who can survive? Maybe the PF are more Darwinian in nature than you think.



And sadly, this will never be because of short sighted design choices. There is no long approach to stations to allow scans, NAV points are vestigial in regular play, leaving only SC and ineffective interdiction that annoys people.



And in a PvE context some places are very safe. Just not in Open. The dilemma is that without forcing players into Open to force people to work together to survive, you've created a situation where people use Solo as a crutch and allow balance issues to remain that make Open more hostile.



Its stupid to assume the other person plays by the rules you do when there are no rules to begin with. Its ignorance to think Shin Dhez is safe, or Deciat. There is a wealth of knowledge that you can use to avoid most places, and remain safe- you just have to use it.



You have it the wrong way round. Accept these people exist and deal with them. If enough people learn griefers starve. It just takes a proactive player rather than one who simply throws a fit. If you can't accept that, use PG or Solo where you can control who you meet, or in general play use block (but not in Powerplay sunshine).

1) Yeah look I know you LOVE that blurb, it's NOT the only one.....try looking at the others. Combat is JUST ONE THIRD of the game.

2) The explorer blurb does mention surviving to sell, but it's not the primary focus of the blurb, just a side comment.

3) a mode that breaks Lore, because of many of the players.

4) The PF isn't combat focused group...I'm not THAT much into the game but I've read a lot of lore and this: "Formed in 2805 after the great surge in private ownership of smaller starships, the Pilots Federation soon found a role as a conduit for trade route information exchange between trusted pilots and provided the infrastructure for a mutual protection scheme against the rising scourge of interstellar pirates"

I think combat focussed player such as yourself are pushing your own narrative to the galaxy, breaking the existing lore.

5) I think FD could code it in, notorious players should not be able to loiter in hi sec space, they should be harrassed by Security forces all the time (I remember from a previous chat we disagree about this!)

6) No no no Shin Dez SHOULD be safe, especially for PF members, it completely destroys lore and common sense for it not to be IMO. It's complete ignorance of game lore to think otherwise...open shold just be CQC in the galaxy, THAT's the only premise that makes sense for open the way you want it, remove ALL lore.

7) Annnnnd that's why this hotel california will run and run and run and run. see you next time (or in bit ).

 

[Riverside]

We all know it's indescriminate...and that's the problem, there are tools to help combat focused players be a bit more reasonable in how they pick their targets (scanners).

Imagine going to a bar, and there's someone in the bar thinking "next effers comes in I'm gonna smack".....and you walk in the bar and get smacked.....now the context of the game is there should be nice safe bars (hi sec) and dives (low/no sec).....the premise I outlined first ONLY makes sense in the dive. Yes it "can" happen in more reputable bars but then there are serious repurcussions, arrest, banning etc. In Elite those repurcussions do not go far enough to discourage that sort of thing from happening. It shouldn't happen anywhere and everywhere, if a Hi sec system could NOT protect innocent parties in it's jurisdiction what do you think would happen? NO ONE would go there and it would decline until it became a "dive".

FD's mistake is literally making open a free for all as some take it too far and too literally. IMO. They should either make every open system an anarchy (thus spitting the shared galaxy conept) or do more to stop the indescriminate attacks where they shouldn't really happen (hi/med security). Just imagine if a notorious pirate sailed up the Thames into London......I don't think the authorities would wait for the pirate to commit a crime first, he'd be blown out of the water ASAP.

A criminal commits a crime and is wanted. They are chased by authorities & bounty hunters, until they are caught & imprisoned (popped in ED). They serve their punishment and are released back into society, IRL probably with initial restrictions of freedom (notoriety in ED), but ultimately they are free to do as they please again.

 

[Leper Messiah]

A criminal commits a crime and is wanted. They are chased by authorities & bounty hunters, until they are caught & imprisoned (popped in ED). They serve their punishment and are released back into society, IRL probably with initial restrictions of freedom (notoriety in ED), but ultimately they are free to do as they please again.

BUT keep on doing it again and again and again and I don't think the end result is leniency!! That's the biggest flaw in Elite no long term meaningful repurcussions. At certain levels of notoriety hi sec and med sec systems should be impossible for notorious players to loiter and pick their targets.

Also within lore the PF should NOT tolerate "pirate" behaviour, and at a certain level (god knows what as both sides will never agree!) people should be kicked out of the PF and have a "Rogue" tag making them a KOS target in all PF controlled areas.


Just to be clear I'm not "against" people playing as criminals etc ,I just want it to makes sense within the game lore and common sense.

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

The PF is cleary the worst organisation in the history of humanity!!! Even the SS probably didn't tolerate them killing each other, apart from treachery and betrayal I presume...which leads me back to how stupid the PF is in Elite!!

from a wiki lore page so don't know how accurate but:

The Pilots Federation’s zero tolerance policy of dishonourable behaviour amongst its members is enforced by a system of bounties automatically placed on the heads of transgressors.

So the PF isn't a shady group with "gangland" style rules, so someone who kills other PF members dishonourably (which is 99% of gankers/greifers ((PP exempt of course.)) shold be kicked out of the PF IMO.

If it was easy there would be no complaints.

Oh my god, I wish we could get kicked from PF. We could become commanders free of their corruption!

 

[Rubbernuke]

1) Yeah look I know you LOVE that blurb, it's NOT the only one.....try looking at the others. Combat is JUST ONE THIRD of the game.

I 'like' it because its actually the truth of the matter. If I look under the blurb for explorer or trader, does it have an exemption from combat? Does it say "those nasty pirates and murderers are switched off so you can pootle about freely?"

2) The explorer blurb does mention surviving to sell, but it's not the primary focus of the blurb, just a side comment.

You have to survive to enact your plans- i.e. be aware of combat, ships and tactics so you can avoid traps and pitfalls.

3) a mode that breaks Lore, because of many of the players.

#1 Sadly lore is an elastic term in ED these days.

4) The PF isn't combat focused group...I'm not THAT much into the game but I've read a lot of lore and this: "Formed in 2805 after the great surge in private ownership of smaller starships, the Pilots Federation soon found a role as a conduit for trade route information exchange between trusted pilots and provided the infrastructure for a mutual protection scheme against the rising scourge of interstellar pirates"

See #1 above.

I think combat focussed player such as yourself are pushing your own narrative to the galaxy, breaking the existing lore.

There is no 'narrative' other than what you do and when players cross paths. You explore, I explode things to make the BGS and PP move. There is no story other than that.

5) I think FD could code it in, notorious players should not be able to loiter in hi sec space, they should be harrassed by Security forces all the time (I remember from a previous chat we disagree about this!)

I've been hostile in Sol with sec chasing me in SC trying to interdict , and ATR popping up when I attack. Its all meaningless if your target lasts a few seconds of frag fire.

6) No no no Shin Dez SHOULD be safe, especially for PF members, it completely destroys lore and common sense for it not to be IMO. It's complete ignorance of game lore to think otherwise...open shold just be CQC in the galaxy, THAT's the only premise that makes sense for open the way you want it, remove ALL lore.

Then players (PF members) should band together and repel the griefers. You already have ATR and security ships, the final gap is two minutes surviving the attack so your wing can fight back or you HW.

7) Annnnnd that's why this hotel california will run and run and run and run. see you next time (or in bit ).

It will, and I'll always be here dispensing common sense.

 

[Riverside]

BUT keep on doing it again and again and again and I don't think the end result is leniency!! That's the biggest flaw in Elite no long term meaningful repurcussions. At certain levels of notoriety hi sec and med sec systems should be impossible for notorious players to loiter and pick their targets.

Also within lore the PF should NOT tolerate "pirate" behaviour, and at a certain level (god knows what as both sides will never agree!) people should be kicked out of the PF and have a "Rogue" tag making them a KOS target in all PF controlled areas.


Just to be clear I'm not "against" people playing as criminals etc ,I just want it to makes sense within the game lore and common sense.

What makes sense is that someone can carry out a crime once, then after that it becomes increasingly difficult to continue their crime spree in lawful space. The game does this. It could do it more, to encourage those players to move to lawless space and recognise the value of lawless space (carriers in unpopulated systems too). It could be that escalation of PvE repercussions is specific to Player kills.

 

[Riverside]

Oh my god, I wish we could get kicked from PF. We could become commanders free of their corruption!

You wouldn't be able to dock at an NPC controlled station & would have no rebuy insurance. Could be interesting

 

[Vetinari]

Someone has brought up the Lore card in a very persuasive way. Above all else and casting all other considerations aside, it is against the lore.

Shin Dez is the home of the best of the best, the best Traders, the best Explorers and for protection the people with most kill counter. The PF has recognised that Elite in combat is NOT a recognition of skill but of kill counter. Thats why they dropped the requirements for joining the EPF from Elite to DANGEROUS and thats why the game is called Elite: Dangerous and not Elite 4. In PF terms the Combat pilots with the grade are expected to be hired to deliver Princesses and Diplomats etc etc The ones who need a combat pilot to get there. To protect against the Pirates or Assassins.

Now the counter argument seems to be that players should form groups to protect people. Some do but the % of people who actually do is so tiny as to have no overall effect, especially when then the griefers just move to another soft target. The reality is most people just put up with it and think gankers are idiots and some people go to PG or Solo because of it.

So your stated intended outcome of being a criminal chased across the galaxy and player groups combining to chase you isn't happening, mainly because most people dont actually care enough about you and never will, to them youre not a rogue assassin outlaw criminal, youre just a bother and a delay, the bigger issue to most people is the lack of repercussions. Why do you keep repeating despite all the evidence that this is the solution?. 1 Ganker has come up with a novel solution.

Most people would just kill the wasps nest and not let it spoil the picnic for much longer, if it was an organised picnic theyd be on at the organisers to do something about it. Its an easy solution and stops all the future problems.

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

You wouldn't be able to dock at an NPC controlled station & would have no rebuy insurance. Could be interesting

Stations allow non pf pilots to land, I don't see any reason for ex-pf commanders to be booted out.

However, I'm (personally) down for Ironman rules, as long as it doesn't colloquially screw every outlaw through. Not everyone is doing PvP in that group.
Leaving the pf would obviously need a wide range of benefits, too.

Was brainstorming in the past about potential Ironman character options from the start, which would grant you greater bgs reach, potential pp benefits, etc, but upon death, there's no rebuy option. Just starting over.

voluntarily, of course.

 

[Leper Messiah]

I 'like' it because its actually the truth of the matter. If I look under the blurb for explorer or trader, does it have an exemption from combat? Does it say "those nasty pirates and murderers are switched off so you can pootle about freely?"



You have to survive to enact your plans- i.e. be aware of combat, ships and tactics so you can avoid traps and pitfalls.



#1 Sadly lore is an elastic term in ED these days.



See #1 above.



There is no 'narrative' other than what you do and when players cross paths. You explore, I explode things to make the BGS and PP move. There is no story other than that.



I've been hostile in Sol with sec chasing me in SC trying to interdict , and ATR popping up when I attack. Its all meaningless if your target lasts a few seconds of frag fire.



Then players (PF members) should band together and repel the griefers. You already have ATR and security ships, the final gap is two minutes surviving the attack so your wing can fight back or you HW.



It will, and I'll always be here dispensing common sense.

god I wish I could be naffed to multiquote the way you do it!! hopefully these line up and make sense!

1) nope it's "your" truth. Do the explorer and trader blurbs say "The ONLY way to survive is equip you ship with blah blah blah yadda yadda", do they say "Hi sec areas arn't really hi sec at all, expect to be destroyed by a murder hobo"? mmmmmmmm..nope they do not. Combat is PART of the game NOT the focus. The only ignorance I am seing is your inability to grasp this concept.

2) exactly, be "aware" of it, it's NOT the focus, NOT the be all and end all.

3) agreed. But combat focused players make it worse IMO.

4) agreed. FD should do more to protect the Lore of the game. No-one should be able to "pirate" and not get kicked out of the PF.

5) No that's "your" narrative (or lack of it)....someone else in open may be playing to the games lore and someone like you destroys it.

6) Then FD have to up the Ai to ensure it's even more difficult to even select a target to interdict. Where appropriate in game lore of course. Being a criminal shold be the hbard mode people are clamoring for, bring back the harder Ai that many liked but only for the notorious. FS have failed in giving the high level players any content/challange.

7) I get the feeling (could be wrong) most organised player groups are criminal in game? There's more lone wolf good guys just exploring and trading? I have no real idea though to be honest. Just what I get from threads like these.

8) common sense from "your" perspective...I have no horse in this race. I'm trying to understand both sides of the argument.

 

[Leper Messiah]

What makes sense is that someone can carry out a crime once, then after that it becomes increasingly difficult to continue their crime spree in lawful space. The game does this. It could do it more, to encourage those players to move to lawless space and recognise the value of lawless space (carriers in unpopulated systems too). It could be that escalation of PvE repercussions is specific to Player kills.

The game does need to do more, I agree and it's what Im primarily arguing. Maintaining the status quo leads to hotel california!

You wouldn't be able to dock at an NPC controlled station & would have no rebuy insurance. Could be interesting

exactly! FD would need to implement pirate bases of operation on the fringes of the bubble, or pirates could utilise FCs as mobile bases (have them only visible to others out of the PF). There's so much FD could do.

 

[Riverside]

Stations allow non pf pilots to land, I don't see any reason for ex-pf commanders to be booted out.

However, I'm (personally) down for Ironman rules, as long as it doesn't colloquially screw every outlaw through. Not everyone is doing PvP in that group.

You can already play to ironman rules. What you can't do is join a session that allows consequence free PvP fun using the ships & flight model from the main game - a 'minecraft Creative mode' sandbox. With easy money from mining and places like San Tu it comes close though, and with Carriers allowing players to set their respawn point anywhere in the galaxy it comes even closer.

But there's no salt in that, so Deciat it is I guess

 

[Rubbernuke]

1) nope it's "your" truth. Do the explorer and trader blurbs say "The ONLY way to survive is equip you ship with blah blah blah yadda yadda", do they say "Hi sec areas arn't really hi sec at all, expect to be destroyed by a murder hobo"? mmmmmmmm..nope they do not. Combat is PART of the game NOT the focus. The only ignorance I am seing is your inability to grasp this concept.

Its "the" fundamental truth of Open- you swim in the same sea the sharks do. So, if you don't want to be eaten you find ways to either run away, be in a different place or become a shark yourself.

2) exactly, be "aware" of it, it's NOT the focus, NOT the be all and end all.

If only everyone was aware, then griefers would have no food and that cycle is broken. But, since people absolve themselves of personal responsibility the cycle marches on.

3) agreed. But combat focused players make it worse IMO.

In the end the only part of the game you control is your ship- where it goes, what its made of, how its flown. Obsessing on other players and motivations is pointless- view them as variables that you account for.

4) agreed. FD should do more to protect the Lore of the game. No-one should be able to "pirate" and not get kicked out of the PF.

The question then becomes- what then? You could lock people out of Shin Dhez and it would not make any real difference- even superpower level locks would make little difference. Its why its down to the individual to be savvy. Planning, even for a short trip is vital. Situational awareness doubly so. A little knowledge (fly in paths that make interception attempts obvious for example)- seconds count, reflexes and responses count. Don't skip or trivialise vital skills and the game becomes safer as well as being more rewarding.

5) No that's "your" narrative (or lack of it)....someone else in open may be playing to the games lore and someone like you destroys it.

There is no ongoing narrative in game. Everything that happens as of now is what players make it. You can LARP about as much as you want but it will always come down to the basics when players meet.

6) Then FD have to up the Ai to ensure it's even more difficult to even select a target to interdict. Where appropriate in game lore of course. Being a criminal shold be the hbard mode people are clamoring for, bring back the harder Ai that many liked but only for the notorious. FS have failed in giving the high level players any content/challange.

You can make every ship ATR and you still have about ten seconds of opportunity to kill- more if you don't see destruction as a negative. People including myself have made numerous suggestions but all of them still require some level of personal preparedness because CONCORD level policing will never exist.

7) I get the feeling (could be wrong) most organised player groups are criminal in game? There's more lone wolf good guys just exploring and trading? I have no real idea though to be honest. Just what I get from threads like these.

To be honest I've never come across a group thats 100% angelic.

8) common sense from "your" perspective...I have no horse in this race. I'm trying to understand both sides of the argument.

Common sense is using what information is available + ship and pilot skills to form a real time strategy for your game. Common sense says to look before you cross the road, not put on a blindfold and step from the kerb hoping not to be hit.

 

[Riverside]

The game does need to do more, I agree and it's what Im primarily arguing. Maintaining the status quo leads to hotel california!



exactly! FD would need to implement pirate bases of operation on the fringes of the bubble, or pirates could utilise FCs as mobile bases (have them only visible to others out of the PF). There's so much FD could do.

What I get fed up with is not particularly 'baddie' players, or even 'goodie' players, it's the extremest justification in threads like this, for either side.

The biggest threat to me is usually that I can be tracked on a bounty board. I could track me if you get my meaning. But people don't. They just complain that the game needs to change to accommodate their wishes instead of seeing an imbalance between goodie & baddie and switching sides, or just splitting up into smaller gangs & having coalitions & rivalries that allow the PvP to have some meaning - gang warfare. Some try to do it, and I applaud them for their efforts regardless of hat colour.

 

[Brrokk]

Gosh, this goes on and on. The problem is very simple: you can do whatever you like in a game but sometimes you have a dilemma. The dilemma is your problem, not anyone else's.

Examples:

You can club seals in Deciat.
You can have others thinking you're an OK person.
- Pick one.

You can blow up every trader you meet
You can be not blocked by others.
- Pick one.

(It's easy to think up more examples).

Dilemmas like this crop up in every multi-player game, not just ED. They're not really much to do with modes, blocks, complaints, etc. Try "ninja looting" in LOTRO for example. People form an opinion of you based on what you do, and sometimes it comes back to bite. That's just how things are.

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

You can already play to ironman rules.

No you can't. Of course, you can delete your character upon death, but that's hardly the same as an acknowledged feature of the game. Risk and reward concept should apply.