Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Surefoot]

If I had your knowledge, I would offer my service to CIG. Solving the problems they have been working on for years in just 1 click would allow you to make a lot of money. Just go there as a freelancer and show them where to click on Redis and Kafka, you should ask at least 100K, it's not a lot to save them.

I am already doing that as a full stack engineer, and i earn a lot more than anything CiG would offer me, besides working for someone like CR or in the games industry in general is a big "No" for me. And you would be surprised at what companies do for real, how many times the wheel gets reinvented... I know you tried to diss me there, but it falls flat really, sorry mate. And yes, for a specialist, it's that simple, this is why they earn that kind of money.
(edit) i'll add that from personal experience, this kind of company management will NOT want to hear about solutions that are not coming from them (in this case, CR himself). So even in the hypothesis i was freelancing for CiG they would certainly refuse this kind of solution, because all the upper and mid management were involved in the choice of their doomed architecture and they decide, not you or me, and their seat in the company is usually at stakes. Been there, done that under other similar circumstances.

 

[PiLhEaD]

...you would be surprised at what companies do for real, how many times the wheel gets reinvented...

Oh crikey that strikes home! I've had a long career in IT and never a truer word with "how many times the wheel gets reinvented" - it has driven me mad time and again - the 'not invented here' syndrome.

I feel a G&T coming on!

 

[Surefoot]

the 'not invented here' syndrome

I've been Don Quixoting for years against that in some really, really big companies. It's been mentally exhausting. It's the most common and egregious enterprise architecture mistake. Still seeing this as of today on the current project i am working on. I can so clearly see all the symptoms of it in CiG dev interviews and current delivery rate...

 

[LittleAnt]

Assuming one knows what where they were using for the previous 8 years, what iCache with Pico changes, and how these chages improve matters.

But they were using nothing before. There were no long term persistence for objets in-game before 3.10.2. It's what iCache is for.

 

[PiLhEaD]

But they were using nothing before. There were no long term persistence for objets in-game before 3.10.2. It's what iCache is for.

Then let's hope it's the right tool for the job and works as intended!

 

[Surefoot]

We know it's more complex than WOW or Warframe just by the way the alpha works atm, the amount of data and the persistence they want to achieve with SC.

Clearly, not: first, WoW is a true MMO, and actually persists the whole shard state and redistributes it to all connected players, and the game runs fine. Even though its underlying technology is horribly outdated and inefficient.

The real points of comparison in terms of complexity are more on the side of Eve Online, Planetside or Dual Universe.

Look, Dual Universe from a functional point of view is infinitely more complex than SC as you can change the actual world environment, craft new vehicles from individual bricks, etc. while SC assets are all static (to a point, you can attach different guns to a ship but the end result is still static..). I havent seen open beta reports yet but i'd bet it doesnt run so badly as SC, and they do have everyone on a single shard.

 

[Tippis]

But they were using nothing before. There were no long term persistence for objets in-game before 3.10.2. It's what iCache is for.

No. iCache is explicitly not long-term persistence.
The name alone should give you a hint: cache. As in, transient, temporary, hopefully quick but ultimately not for actual storage.

iCache is meant to be a way to move the world state out of volatile memory, to decouple it from the specific server instance, and to create a way to allow for asynchronous storage and retreival of that state onto and out from an actual long-term storage layer (which itself is separate from the cache). It is an experimental means to an end, not the end itself, and the actual persistence is not just one step removed from the cache but also not actually dependent on it. The cache might certainly help with an eventual implementation of persistence, but they are not the same thing and neither of the two are prerequisites for the other.

Persistence is not what “iCache is for”, not just by very definition but also not by necessity or by design.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Long term persistence add nothing in complexity ?

A save state does add complexity. But it's a staple feature since the 80ies.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The fact is they have started to test iCache with Pico on the actual 3.10.2.

The fact is they have started to test (insert magical tech here) with (other tech) on the actual (insert patch number here).

Early days.

 

[ArAsH]

Just played it for 3 days in a row (been a while, I don’t have that much time). In my opinion the magical tech is working great. Dare I say it?? I had fun

 

[LittleAnt]

Clearly, not: first, WoW is a true MMO, and actually persists the whole shard state and redistributes it to all connected players, and the game runs fine. Even though its underlying technology is horribly outdated and inefficient.

I was speaking of the future final desired product >>> "they want to achieve with SC".
The icache and the server meshing they build now is not designed for 50 players...
For what they want (one shard with x thousand of players) + long term persistence of objects + the actual data they manage in the alpha (which increase at each patch), the architecture they have to build now must be more complex than the one used for WOW.

 

[Surefoot]

But they were using nothing before. There were no long term persistence for objets in-game before 3.10.2. It's what iCache is for.

And there lies the issue: they'll have to refactor their whole code so objects are not taken from the current RAM session but from an external broker (in this case, "iCache").
This is something you do FIRST when you start coding something that big. Now coming back through their whole spaghetti code will indeed take years.

For what they want (one shard with x thousand of players) + long term persistence of objects + the actual data they manage in the alpha (which increase at each patch), the architecture they have to build now must be more complex than the one used for WOW.

You realize that WoW shards can host more than 50 concurrent players right ? And that WoW is currently a LOT more complex than anything SC has to offer right ? Unless you can point me at crafting in SC, or player run marketplace, etc.

 

[LittleAnt]

The fact is they have started to test (insert magical tech here) with (other tech) on the actual (insert patch number here).

You can deny any improvment, yet they are indeed there

 

[Dooguk]

looks like he's giving up his 2nd day job super FUDduster man. Gonna miss his rants. They were truly epic.

Probably the only reason some people even heard of Star Citizen is because of him. It's been a fun ride though.

 

[LittleAnt]

You realize that WoW shards can host more than 50 concurrent players right ?

I was talking for the 50 players limit of SC atm.

 

[Tippis]

I was speaking of the future final desired product >>> "they want to achieve with SC".

No. You were speaking in the present tense, trying to invent nonsensical reasons to depict SC as something far more advanced than the Cryengine mod it is. You compared it to very old games that have long since solved the issues CI¬G is struggling with.

Now that that ridiculously silly claim has been thoroughly squashed, mulched, and thoroughly laughed at, you're trying to move the goalposts to the default fallback position of trying to compare non-existent fantasy tech with what already actually exist, and them assuming without cause that the fantasy tech will somehow turn out fantastic in spite of CI¬G's track record so far suggesting that nothing of the kind is within their grasp.

the architecture they have to build now must be more complex than the one used for WOW.

Not really.

But at least you now highlight why our claim was nonsense: it's something they must do — a future irrealis — to become comparable to what WoW has been doing since forever — a past and present indicative. Surpassing WoW is a much later question.

 

[Garix]

Probably the only reason some people even heard of Star Citizen is because of him. It's been a fun ride though.

To be fair its also the other way round. Never heard of DS until I started following the train wreck that is SC. At least CR put his name to a game I enjoyed (WC).

 

[Xink]

Throwing fancy words around for things "never done before" and pretending like they're difficult problems is a common trait within software development in certain companies and with certain developers. Usually the not particularly well reputed companies, that do not attract particularly skilled, or experienced, developers. Sound familiar?

These same developers hack something together last minute behind some smoke and mirrors just to satisfy some inane business requirement and cover their bumbum, then blame everything but their own inability to use correct design for the thing they were supposed to have designed for it being a dog to run. We all know them, seen them, have had the misfortune of "working" with them. From the looks of it, they're in good company over at CIG.

Good team of artists though. 10/10, would buy a ship again.

If you want to equate good artists with the company as a whole knowing what it's doing and trust in their ability to deliver the technical masterpiece that is the abomination of an engine they are working with.. it's your money, have at it. Just do not be surprised to find it's smoke and mirrors all the way down.

 

[Dooguk]

To be fair its also the other way round. Never heard of DS until I started following the train wreck that is SC. At least CR put his name to a game I enjoyed (WC).

Oh I had heard of Chris Roberts. That is why I never put a penny into SC.

 

[ECity]

Just played it for 3 days in a row (been a while, I don’t have that much time). In my opinion the magical tech is working great. Dare I say it?? I had fun

Hello! Could you comment on CIG not yet getting two servers to share state after eight years of taking pledges for an MMO?