Balance rewards for solo/open/group session

[cmdr borschtl]

Currently there is no incentive for explorers or traders to play in open. There is an easy fix though:
increase trade and exploration rewards by a factor of 3 for scanning or trading in openso people only earn 30% in solo of what they could earn in open. While you're at it also ad rewards for player kills no matter if they had a bounty or not. PvP needs a low base reward and higher special rewards for wanted players. It needs to be done in a way so even after all the ganking and PvP losses the average trader/explorer player should STILL be able to turn a higher profit than in solo. You need to take into account a change in playstyles then as short range exploration and trading would be more of a thing for people who try to minimize risks.

Also some balancing needs to happen to FSD interdiction regarding engineered interdictors vs badly outfitted ships. Currently the player in the bad ship can not escape the gank. There needs to be a chance for the lower gear player to escape the higher gear player in any and all situation BUT would require a lot of skill and flawless execution on his part. We can't have situations where gear trumps skill 100% otherwise it's just the dull grind for gear.

If this is done properly almost nobody would have a reason to play in solo or private sessions.

I'm an explorer. I mainly play solo because i don't see why i wouldn't. I have no issue with putting myself in danger though if i can see an apropriate reward for it. Give me an economic reason to play in open! Show me some risk/reward scenario that makes open attractive to me.

If this ever was considered some kind of safe zone system for new players needs to be expanded on. I think eve online (never played that myself though) aswell as albion online both these MMOs implemented that system well. In albion your loadout has an overall power level. In certain noob friendly blue and yellow zones they had an item power cap so better gear wouldn't lead to better results and people in low gear were competitive in those zones. Earning opportunities need to be limited in those areas to give an incentive to leave the area at some point. But the option to return to the safer space should still be there for those who wish to go back and train some more of farm low tier missions in peace and get ready to try again with the wild west outside the zone. Players need to be able to ease into the game at their own pace. This would turn PvP much more consensual.

I think the rewards are the biggest issue though and really needs adressing. Why not turn this into a proper MMO? Look at the successful stuff others did before.

tl,dr: decrease rewards in no and low risk areas like solo and group sessions and increase rewards in open to give people more incentive to actually use open mode for non-combat stuff. Currently the risk/reward is biased towards solo and group sessions because same reward but lower risk. Please fix the rewards!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I play almost exclusively in Open, primarily earn money from trade and exploration, and the last time I was killed by a player outside of a planned fight was over five years ago in my nearly-Freewinder (by a Novice Cobra, and I got his shields down, so I think I cost him more in hull damage than my rebuy was). Since then I've died twice to horribly misjudging a high-speed approach to a planetary station and crushing a skimmer: those things can actually get my shields down, and are always there, whereas players don't even try more than once a year.

I'm not going to say no to having my earnings routinely tripled for facing this absolutely zero extra risk, but it seems a bit excessive. And once you're past the "actually need more credits for anything" point - which I passed four years ago - the credit cost and reward for anything becomes irrelevant anyway.

It needs to be done in a way so even after all the ganking and PvP losses the average trader/explorer player should STILL be able to turn a higher profit than in solo.

I've made more money from wing trade bonuses, shared wing bounties, shared exploration data scans, faster laser mining, and wing mission rewards - by a considerable margin - in Open than I've lost to rebuys even counting the rebuys from planned PvP fights. All because I can meet other people, and >99.9% of them don't want to kill me.

So from my point of view you should get a ~1% bonus for playing in Solo to make up for those losses.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Why should players be penalised for not wasting their time playing among players who want to engage them in PvP?

 

[cmdr borschtl]

Why should players be penalised for not wasting their time playing among players who want to engage them in PvP?

Really if this is done the reward for solo should stay the same and reward in open needs to rise. We really don't want to penalise the solo player, we want to reward the open player. This is a subtle but important difference. You have higher risks in open so those risks need to be rewarded to make it worth it for you to use open mode and risk being ganked.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Really if this is done the reward for solo should stay the same and reward in open needs to rise. We really don't want to penalise the solo player, we want to reward the open player. This is a subtle but important difference.

A bonus for an action in one mode is the same as a penalty for doing it in another mode.

While a handful of systems are higher risk in Open due to the presence of players, the vast majority of Open offers exactly the same risk as Solo. So the average risk increase in Open is negligible, noting that it is massively increased in a very few systems.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Only ones profiting from that would be gankers having more targets. So no.

 

[operant]

Suspicious... why would you have to have extra reward to encourage players to play in open.
Particularly if it is so 'wonderful'.
Open has its own benefits and detriments. Just like the other modes.
Let is stand (or fall) on its merits.
Some have a strange fascination with 'forcing' open mode on others. I say get rid of it, if only to stop these continual threads ;-)

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Currently there is no incentive for explorers or traders to play in open. There is an easy fix though:
increase trade and exploration rewards by a factor of 3 for scanning or trading in openso people only earn 30% in solo of what they could earn in open. While you're at it also ad rewards for player kills no matter if they had a bounty or not. PvP needs a low base reward and higher special rewards for wanted players. It needs to be done in a way so even after all the ganking and PvP losses the average trader/explorer player should STILL be able to turn a higher profit than in solo. You need to take into account a change in playstyles then as short range exploration and trading would be more of a thing for people who try to minimize risks.

Also some balancing needs to happen to FSD interdiction regarding engineered interdictors vs badly outfitted ships. Currently the player in the bad ship can not escape the gank. There needs to be a chance for the lower gear player to escape the higher gear player in any and all situation BUT would require a lot of skill and flawless execution on his part. We can't have situations where gear trumps skill 100% otherwise it's just the dull grind for gear.

If this is done properly almost nobody would have a reason to play in solo or private sessions.

I'm an explorer. I mainly play solo because i don't see why i wouldn't. I have no issue with putting myself in danger though if i can see an apropriate reward for it. Give me an economic reason to play in open! Show me some risk/reward scenario that makes open attractive to me.

If this ever was considered some kind of safe zone system for new players needs to be expanded on. I think eve online (never played that myself though) aswell as albion online both these MMOs implemented that system well. In albion your loadout has an overall power level. In certain noob friendly blue and yellow zones they had an item power cap so better gear wouldn't lead to better results and people in low gear were competitive in those zones. Earning opportunities need to be limited in those areas to give an incentive to leave the area at some point. But the option to return to the safer space should still be there for those who wish to go back and train some more of farm low tier missions in peace and get ready to try again with the wild west outside the zone. Players need to be able to ease into the game at their own pace. This would turn PvP much more consensual.

I think the rewards are the biggest issue though and really needs adressing. Why not turn this into a proper MMO? Look at the successful stuff others did before.

tl,dr: decrease rewards in no and low risk areas like solo and group sessions and increase rewards in open to give people more incentive to actually use open mode for non-combat stuff. Currently the risk/reward is biased towards solo and group sessions because same reward but lower risk. Please fix the rewards!

There are other balancing issues that are more relevant than credits in this case: engineering has caused an enormous disparity between the strongest and weakest ships, and it is very easy to avoid dangerous situations, and as has already been said it’s quite easy to trade in open very little risk.
So I would rather see a higher risk/reward scenario in the game in general: for example much higher rewards for those that date to trade in anarchies, but much better protection (even in open) when trading in higher security systems.

 

[cmdr borschtl]

guys, have a quick look at albion online. It's free to play. Play it for some time. It's a full loot PvP MMORPG which means if you kill a player you get everything the player did carry at that point. This is pretty wild to balance actually but they did it and that world works really well with increasing rewards for activities in more dangerous zones and item power caps for gear (ships/modules) in the low zones. That's why i'm saying the noob area needs to be left open so players can return there. So playing in a safe-ish zone in open where a tier 5 laser is as strong as a tier 2 laser would be an alternative to solo mode since small ships would be more competitive in those low reward noob zones.
Effectively creating lower reward areas where the edge of PvP is taken off for new players to learn the game in. Really the problems elite suffers from have already been solved by other games. Why not take a lesson there? Albion doesn't have a solo mode and nobody ever asked for one because PvP aswell as risk/rewards and the chase/escape mechanics is actually balanced in that.

In elite you just grind for the OP ship to get a brutal edge. The gap between the highest and lowest powered ships need to be closed somewhat too. Engineering effects are too powerful. Engineering should give a slight edge but not an overwhelming one like it is right now.

Relative increase in power level needs to be inverse exponential. Lower tier upgrades need to have higher percentage power gains than the higher tier ones so there is a sweetspot for grinding less than the max. The advantage of grinding to mega lategame big stuff from just good stuff needs to be much smaller while grinding from super early to just okay stuff needs to be felt a lot more. Basically take off the edges of player power. Make the weakest stronger and the strongest weaker.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Yikes, not thins one again.

I do not believe that 30% extra pay in open would make that much difference. As we all know how this would work. Play solo, gather all stuff, travel to station, switch modes, turn in. 30 seconds and 30% higher payrate.

that is stupid mechanic.

And you try to make it more complicated that you get the bonus if you collected and carried that data in open, then this will make open for so many issues with that. And one single misstate to login in PG/Solo and you loose the bonus. For the absolute majority of an explorers game time, out on a exploration is VERY safe regardless of game mode, so there is no real extra risk, and the extra risk in open when getting back to sell exploration data is for the most part not a risk, unless you fly to a some popular systems... otherwise the risk of encountering a ganker when you are just coming back to the bubble and want to sell your data is for the most part almost zero. If you go for maximum powerplay buffed exploration bonuses, then this bonus is way better than the proposed 30% bonus.




And if we are into it for the credits. Exploration is not a top contender for good credits per hour....
Just doing mining, for day, (8 hours) and you should be able will easily cash in weeks of exploration data!
Wing missions, can easily give you a big passive income. My second account, have 500+ million from wing missions rewards! stills flies a sidewinder! going to get that Elite Combat someday with a Sidewinder as the ONLY owned ship!
The only time Exploration have been somewhat competetive for earning credits is to follow Road to Riches, but that is not exploration, that ius just following and scanning systems other players have already discovered... great for getting Elite Exploration rank though...



So I do not see how 30% will change any of this.I do believe I have only been killed 3 times by a player.

• Me as newbie player, had fire deploys hardpoint and thus I managed to shot a player near station. and he rammed me,m when ramming was thing...
• A friend missed that my shields was down, so he killed me with his healing beam!
• A Ganker lurking around Felicity Farseers base in Deciat, sniped me from long range when I was about to land in my current project. I think it was my second Adder...

So the "extra" risk in open is hard to quantify, as the risk is alot more based on chance than an actual risk. This is influenced on where you decide to fly ofcourse, as we know that deciat, founders world, community goals etc, are a hotspots for higher risk, as this is where many players are. So to mitigate these risks, then avoiding such areas is very effective, as the chance for actually encountering other players and that they are hostile is pretty slim on a average. Just look at all the threads that popup about hard to find targets to kill. Just like this one. I do not believe for a single second you are an explorer, you are a just another ganker looking for targets. trying to make up some excuse why this would be better...






If you want to actually create some higher danger, picking some salvaged cargo from your exploration trip and fly with that back to the bubble and turn it in would be a much bigger threat your safe arrival. as this will trigger Pirates NPCs comming after you jsut becuase you have some cargo in your holds, and they will fire at ytou if you do not depart with the cargo. And the bonus payout would only be paid if you have this cargo with you. and this would work in all modes....






finally, this breaks the all modes are equal.

 

[Robert Maynard]

guys, have a quick look at albion online. It's free to play. Play it for some time. It's a full loot PvP MMORPG which means if you kill a player you get everything the player did carry at that point. This is pretty wild to balance actually but they did it and that world works really well with increasing rewards for activities in more dangerous zones and item power caps for gear (ships/modules) in the low zones. That's why i'm saying the noob area needs to be left open so players can return there. So playing in a safe-ish zone in open where a tier 5 laser is as strong as a tier 2 laser would be an alternative to solo mode since small ships would be more competitive in those low reward noob zones.
Effectively creating lower reward areas where the edge of PvP is taken off for new players to learn the game in. Really the problems elite suffers from have already been solved by other games. Why not take a lesson there? Albion doesn't have a solo mode and nobody ever asked for one because PvP aswell as risk/rewards is actually balanced in that.

Comparing a game where the only way to play is in a PvP-enabled game world doesn't really work when the design of this game means that PvP is an optional extra that players choose to engage in, or not.

This game was pitched, over seven and a half years ago, with the three game modes and single shared galaxy state as part of the pitch - every player either bought or backed it on that basis. That being the case it will have attracted players who have absolutely no interest in engaging in PvP - no matter how much others may want them to make themselves available to be attacked.

 

[Northpin]

Currently there is no incentive for explorers or traders to play in open

As Ian said, Open has enough incentives already.
If you need more cash as an explorer go map those terraformables out there... plenty of them... I'd say more than 1000 billions.
If you need more cash as a trader, go trade in a wing. Or go mining.

 

[Dr Seuss]

Risk vs Reward OK
But not on the trader / miner / explorer side, put it on the gankers side. Increase punishments for unprovoked attacks, increase the time and effort required to remove the restrictions on them.
Dont reward the prey, punish the bullies

 

[Red Anders]

Really if this is done the reward for solo should stay the same and reward in open needs to rise. We really don't want to penalise the solo player, we want to reward the open player. This is a subtle but important difference. You have higher risks in open so those risks need to be rewarded to make it worth it for you to use open mode and risk being ganked.

Who is the 'we' to which you refer? Are you a gestalt entity?

 

[Jmanis]

Really if this is done the reward for solo should stay the same and reward in open needs to rise

And watch me exploit the bejesus out of that. Seriously. FD could not resolve every way I could just completely exploit that sort of system. Considering they still can't get mining and massacre mission incomes under control, they genuinely have no hope for that.

 

[Arindor]

Even if there were carrot and stick reasons to play in open, I would not. For me, solo caters for the lack of an offline option.

 

[aRJay]

....

If this is done properly almost nobody would have a reason to play in solo or private sessions.

...

Apart from those without a premium license for their console who aren't allowed to play multiplayer, those who don't want to play directly with other people.

The risks in open are as has been said negligible in over 99.99% of systems, the advantages for anyone not interested in PvP activities are as negligible as the risks so if people are happy playing their own way why bother bribing them to play differently.

So a no from me as well.

 

[John Stoutbeard]

TLDR;
The argument fails on it's own merits:

• A request for 'Balance' while specifying how to do it causes inequality and imbalance for many scenarios.
• An assumption that that all modes should be treated different because of 'risk', while the argument for using a different mode goes way beyond 'risk'.

Social issues, time, family situations, technical challenges, desires and the right to play the way you want. There are more to this than the argument you use. Risk, reward. (sorry, I've heard this since I played EVE for a decade, a decade ago).

What you ask is unreasonable and unbalanced with what the game-modes provide for us.

---
TL;
Here's a suggestion.
How you should go about the conundrum you have is to ask:
- What are the goals you (or others) want to achieve?
a) "As an explorer, I want to have an incentive to play in open".

Next, look at whats preventing you (and others) from doing so.
Is it (this is where you make your own lists):
-- Game mechanics --

a) Risk of destruction? (Lack of security?)​

b) Lack of monetary reward?​

c) Lack of reward in the game loop for explorers?​

d) Open is just messed up, too much lag.​

e) I have to go somewhere and change the full Ship-outfitting before I can engage safely in an open environment? (Poor Mechanics causing consequences for 'Time').​

-- External factors --

e) Lack of other kinds of rewards such as social interaction?​

f) Don't have the time to prepare to reach the destination in a safe manner?​

g) The kids needs attention constantly and I'm alone home.​

h) The PC or Internet doesn't act properly.​

​

Then prioritize. Look for solutions to the problem at hand. And have open discussions about it.
You may get better advice based on that.

If all you want is to address 'Reward on Risk' all I can say is the argument is out of touch with what Open, PG and Solo provides.

 

[Misty_Dark]

And watch me exploit the bejesus out of that. Seriously. FD could not resolve every way I could just completely exploit that sort of system. Considering they still can't get mining and massacre mission incomes under control, they genuinely have no hope for that.

not to mention how Fleet Carriers have made this even easier to exploit....

 

[cmdr borschtl]

Yikes, not thins one again.

I do not believe that 30% extra pay in open would make that much difference. As we all know how this would work. Play solo, gather all stuff, travel to station, switch modes, turn in. 30 seconds and 30% higher payrate.

100% agree this needs to be adressed properly. We can't have these easy loopholes in that. For example: only if the star was scanned AND the data sold both aswell as all the distance traveled in open you would get the higher reward. So you really have to play in open to get the reward. No loopholes!


"So the "extra" risk in open is hard to quantify, as the risk is alot more based on chance than an actual risk. "

that's why i actually said 70% increase not only 30%. Even after you got ganked 3 times on your way to your mining spot you should still turn a profit if you manage do the 4th run successfully. See what i'm saying here? Reward the risk so people want to opt in to take that risk because it's worth it.

Comparing a game where the only way to play is in a PvP-enabled game world doesn't really work when the design of this game means that PvP is an optional extra that players choose to engage in, or not.

well, in albion PvP is optional. It's possible to entirely avoid it if it's not your cup of tea and just farm some recource all day in peace if you want and people do that too but you will have to buy the higher tier items from the market as farming for those is only available in the PvP zones. So the highest rewards are then only obtainable through the market to the one who doesn't want to venture out into the risky areas.
Nobody suggested to remove any mode at all. What has been suggested was a balance to reflect increased risk in open mode with increased rewards so people have a reason to play in open. Understand that i'm a solo player who would love to play in open but it just doesn't make sense to me for non-combat stuff.