Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Man, you’re too uptight. Am I talking to a robot here? Not everything can be defined and not everything has specific parameters. Get over it.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’ve put my share in and that’s it. Let the whales fund it for me, meanwhile I’ll enjoy what I have.
You butted in with a non-answer to a rather simple question that wasn't even directed at you, and then you got all huffy about how your non-answer was dismissed for being a non-answer. Then you offered an answer that, while ostensibly not entirely information-free, didn't actually answer the question either because, per your own descriptions, it didn't actually set SC apart from other games. The MDA framework is a bit overkill, perhaps, but it's structured and easy to follow if nothing else.
I'm just trying to get a good answer to the question that everyone always keep avoiding.
If you don't want to answer the question, avoid it by not butting in.
How the heck is Ben Lesnick a community manager? Is he visible in some way that I've missed? I see the ED community managers all the time (on streams, in forums, interviewed for podcasts, etc.).
Source: https://twitter.com/banditloaf/status/1307771204032507904
Source: https://twitter.com/banditloaf/status/1307771204032507904
He just helps with the monthly Jump Point magazines now.
Hmm SQ42 artwork ... Beta incoming?
He knows where the bodies are buried.
e: I'm only half-kidding. While I think it's highly unlikely to ever happen given his decades-long devotion to Chris, Ben isn't the guy they'd want to disenfranchise or disillusion given his history with the inner workings of… oh… everything and everyone. Based on what Bootcha has told of his experience, there's also a fair chance that his insights into the fanbase are still valuable to them, even if he is no longer allowed to show it off in public.
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Wasn't he the one who came up with the whole selling jpegs idea?
There is no other game like SC with first person flying of spaceships, with atmospheric planets, which are being devleoped by Chris Roberts and kickstarted in 2012... no other game like it!
80/20 rule.
yeah while today quite a few games offer what Star Citizen offers and even more the unique combination of Star Citizen leaves the other titles in the dust. The reason is that Star Citizen provides a tingly sensation or something, something undefinable, something that cannot be put into words and the people claiming this argument obviously never bothered to identify those qualities in order to recognize them in other games as well. Asking people about this usually results in the same explosive reply that you get when you question religion.
It just works!
Thats nice and all but people standing around the one making that claim are still none for the wiser.
For the most part I treat such claims like the defensive reactions they are. Only a few people I know can say this AND back up their claim with words that support their view. The risk is that trying to give an answer might reveal that you dont have anything to base your claim on....an empty claim so to speak.
Plus...in the end....people having fun or not isnt even part of the discussion for the most part. You usually have somebody barging in with "yeah...well....I have fun" and people in this thread entertain that claim by asking in more detail which is immediately perceived as an attack, a denial or pack behavior. When its just an innocent question about something that wasnt even part of the argument before that somebody brought it up. We talk performance factors, dependancies, requirements, limits etc all based on the stuff some of us know and are willing to share. How do you counter such talks when you dont have expertise in such areas yourself and the task at hand is to make all the ridicule and jesting stop?
I think this thread gives a great answer to that question
After years of following this project I understand that Star Citizen has very little to show as "aquired" or "achieved". Most issues rely on future solutions that might or might not come to fruition. A whole lot of things in Star Citizen depend critically on things that need to be fixed, solved, achieved yet. Without them the project as a whole might very well fail. I personally dont think its fair to say "lets wait and see" anymore when we (I mean CIG) have squandered years of time and millions of dollars as kind of a schooling project. I dont think backers jumped on board originally to allow CIG to realize that they "cant do it". Of course if that was the case CIG would never admit it openly but their evasive replies and non-answers really give enough answers already. Instead CIG plays for time and I honestly cannot understand it without taking "scam" into consideration. If CIG doesnt have the answers or knows how to overcome the problems...simply waiting some more months wont help either.
That poster made a well thought out and elaborate post. I wont even doubt his expertise in these matters but he makes the same mistake as LittleAnt....he assumes that CIG will aquire the necessary solutions in time and once that happens his forecast would very well be correct. I just doubt that CIG is able to muster the required solutions but time will tell. He talks about SC devs being able to pump out a moon in a single month.
Is that actually the case? Because I wasnt aware that the SC universe is filled with stelar bodies, something that would actually provide evidence that CIG can do this. Same goes for their procedural generation engine. They have something but I m not sure it qualifies for procedrual generation plus the engine also hasnt helped CIG to get out more planets. New planets still take 6 months or so at which point we can easily state that its fully hand-crafted considering how empty and bland most of these planets are.
So yes.....development will speed up over time. But that requires a foundation that actually works. And I dont mean this in the "it works for me" claims made by fanboys all over the place. I mean the technical foundation that allows smooth performance and reliable stability where glitches and game breaking bugs are the exception...all of this without optimization. I look at Star Citizen today and the thought that this mess will actually go into beta anytime soon is such desperate dreamweaving that its kind of hurtful to acknowledge. Some people chose to make it a matter of time, as if Star Citizens success is a guaranteed fact. They look past the present and the past and keep looking forward taking vague dev statements as confirmations that this will happen.
I am not one of those people. Mostly because CIG hasnt given me reason to trust them blindly. The absolute best they can expect from me is to wait and see and let them actually deliver what they promised. Only that "promise" is as slippery as a snake changing over time and being constantly redefined, reevaluated and sometimes dropped in order to hold something else up. Basically work that never gets finished. CIG is good at this....never actually finishing stuff. They start to work at something, show some glimpses supported by a lot of dreams.txt or dreams.jpeg and then move on to the next thing. I dont see SC ever picking up development speed because CIG keeps adding technical debt and keeps proving that absolutely required technical necessities are ot of their reach and not implemented yet. The famous "blockers" of which there have been quite a few throughout SCs development, its always one of these that holds up everything. Always a NEW one coming into play that gives CIG another excuse, more time to fiddle thumbs and do whatever.
What I find so fascinating about Star Citizen is that it proves that all you have to be is ruthless in order to have success. If thats lasting success or not is to be determined on a case to case scenario. Didnt work for Theranos for example but other cases end with the initiator reeking in the rewards and jumping off any legal consequences. So you need something up front to make the fish bite, promises, a false presentation or a fake video will do the trick. And you ll have to be absolutely indifferent towards other people and their wellbeing/ money. If you lack any kind of moral compass or integrity then its a pretty safe bet that eventually you ll find the people with hopes and dreams that are willing to spend hard cash on that. All you need is to identify that wish and exploit it. And once you have that ball rolling it becomes kind of a perpetual engine where you dont even have to provide any evidence for your claims....the wishful thinking and hopes/dreams of the people who you originally exploited will carry you over. SC shows a lot of signs that would point to deceptive intentions. The goalpost moving, the constant redefining or refactoring of already established things. Finding a distraction to allow another month or 3 to go by. It reeks of playing for time. And it works. Because the man at the top doesnt care about what people think as long as the remaining faithful keep his wallet full.
An easy formula in order to have success in life or so it seems yes? Just eff over your fellow humans and keep running when you are found out. Scoundrels, scammers, thieves....theres a list of names for such people. I truly believe Chris Roberts falls into that category...based on what I witnessed since 2012. That the alpha can be fun and provides the scratch to some peoples itch is of no conern in that statement.
The way I see it Chris Roberts started the dream train on the back of somebodies else work (Crytek - 2012 trailer) then when he was pressed for results the first Star Citizen iteration was basically a large level with a space station and other stuff....all of which were part of the base engine he got access to.- he still designed and created the space station but the engine allowed for quick implementation out of the box including the animations, level in level physics grid etc. CIG created a nice looking tech demo but it wasnt anything special....it just promised to be more than it actually was which made the mediocre result larger in some way. Most people I remember sampling the PTU were rocked by the sheer potential all of this suggested. The actual gameplay or tech demo wasnt that impressive but extrapolate it to whole systems....thousands of players, never diminishing the level of detail, filled with life-like AI and all of it seamlessly interacting with each other physically simulated in the macro and micro (player metabolism)....it was breathtaking.
And utterly false. Years down the line...after going through a funding pool that already made people rich and would ve allowed for several games to be finished we discover that Star Citizen doesnt have the required foundation or technical capabilities in order to allow that dream to come true. Instead we know what we (supposedly) miss to make it true and of look....all of these things are lying in the future only needing more trust, more time and more money to become a reality.
I dont know how much clearer you can make it actually but I understant that you simply cant talk with certain people when it comes to certain topics. Addiction and relgion are two examples that fit that picture.
Well......I ve been following this since day 1. I wont stop until its done. Thats for sure. And I understand that some people simply dont like what I post or cant turn their heads about my motivation to write wall of text over wall of text always basically saying the same. You dont have to understand it and if it annoys you so much theres always the ignore button to get rid of me
I wont accept statements like "but I have fun" and "this actually works" as proof that my assumption about Star Citizen being an elaborate scam is wrong. And the desperate negotiationg over Star Citizen releasing something being proof for its success is just more evidence for me that more and more people start to smell the roses but are not willing to accept reality. The more time passes the more it becomes clear that SC isnt and never has been transparent as it was supposed to be and the skillful people working on the project are unable to provide clear and precise answers. Most assumptions about it today are relying on accepted scenarios for which we have no complete evidence. Like its seamless qualities or the procedural generation capabilities. Or a physically correct simulated environment. Star Citizen sometimes works at which point its easy to accept those assumptions and then it doesnt work or has issues that make the beforementioned qualities hard to believe. I cannot see CIG having done anything groundbreaking or new in any of this. They have bloated the promise baloon to a size where they cannot keep it inflated anymore but apart from that (words) I dont really see anything that I would praise them for. All I see is a lot of putting-CIG-on-a-pedestal from normal and regular people who either dont bother with the risk of it being a scam (cuz its fun), dont want to accept the reality and risk or have managed to integrate the possible scam into their lives to allow them to feed off others as well for their own gain. Is it possible that some pure innocent souls really believe this will happen? Yes, absolutely but talking with them usually reveals very quickly that they either dont know, dont care or are willing to believe CIGs words to silence any doubts. Some fans have said in the past that if Star Citizen would be polished in its current state, not being futher developed or completed but just be bug-free and performing reliably...that would actually be enough already. Never mind that 70%+ of all the promised stuff is still missing. Never mind that we still only have 1 incomplete system to play in and most features not in or working that would allow to do anything else then basic trading or mining or shooting at each other. The Star Citizen tech demo RIGHT NOW would be already enough for a lot of people, broken AI and lack of content and all. Its negotioating because they somehow realize they ll never get the whole deal in their lifetime so they settle for the next best thing. An unfinished but working Star Citizen is still better then nothing. CIG obviously has picked up on that underlying message and I assume they are hard at work to polish and stabilize the tech demo to a degree where they can dump it into early access and call it a day. Only that even that....even that fraction of what they promised seems to be outside their reach.
Or they are not done milking their remaining backers yet. Again showing complete disregard for others.
Not even gonna spoiler this wall of text. Its going to be a nice counter to all those zero-effort one-liners we had filling up the recent pages. Maybe its going to motivate some people to provide more then a simple "its fun" when they try to "up" this scam
Sorry, but there is no way I am going to even attempt to catch up with this thread from the last time I read it some years ago. So I don't really know where the thread is right now and apologise in advance for my post.
But I just wanted to say this; having just watched the 'Architect reviews' YT videos I am amazed, no, astounded at how gorgeous the interiors of the larger SC ships are. Particularly the Hammerhead combat ship and Carrack explorer over the luxury tourers. I prefer their styles to the tacky luxury yacht styles of the 600i and 890J. They really do look like spaceships should look, at least from our human perspective with all the scifi visual baggage that we come with from films, games and our imaginations. The devs have clearly put an awesome amount of work into creating these fantastic looking ships, and it's such a shame because I really want a Carrack and a Hammerhead now they have been made to look so desirable, but I checked on the CIG website at the price of the Carrack at least, and realised several things:
1. The Carrack costs over $1000 and it's probably going to take thousands of hours to grind for it in game. Much longer than it did for me to grind for my first Anaconda during the early days of ED.
2. The stellar cartography room in the Carrack depicts a single star system, and as far as I know there are not much more than one or two star systems to explore right now in the game 'universe'.
3. Another Youtuber estimates that the game may need a further 8 - 10 years to be complete enough to release, going by all the stretch goals that were promised that have not yet been met making it about 25% complete so far.
4. I can't really see an end to it, there are so many more ships that have been backed now and are still not yet even started on least yet finished, so the project will never be complete unless a publisher steps in and kicks Roberts off to finish the game as has happened in the past. But what is the likelyhood of this happening now that things have been allowed to go on so far, with so many broken promises and so much work yet to do?
It's painful to watch, all that effort that has been put in by the designers is just going to go to waste, and so many backers have such blinkered vision and still don't see it. They continue to play the Alpha, or at least what meagre gameplay is available to them in the vain hope that someday, eventually, they will get their money's worth, but how is a thousand dollars or more ever going to be worth paying for any game? The backers who have still not yet abandoned the project, that are still hanging on and still throwing money into the pit are just sleepwalking through an endless oblivion.
There are so many other space sim games out there right now that cost the same or even less than a SC starter package and who knows where the space sim genre will have got to in ten years. That's enough time for several major game development cycles to take place. Earlier I worried that there would be performance issues with the high-fi graphics, now I'm pretty sure that SC will run on next gen hardware just fine, but the software is going to be yesterdays technology by that time, having been superceeded by dozens of future titles with far better gameplay mechanics and available at far less cost to the player.
What more to say? They've created some very desirable things, and I've got to admit, I really do want that Carrack. But I want to keep my one thousand dollars more than spend it on a virtual exploration starship with no stars to fly it to.
Thank god I decided to back Elite and not Star Citizen. My reasons were simple:
I never got to play the 1984 Elite because my dad said I could have one of the cheaper £6.99 games but not the more expensive Elite that day in the department store (We had a BBC Micro, and I think Elite might have cost £60) But I did briefly get to play the second Frontier Elite on a friends PC later in the early 1990's and I thought it was difficult. I still did not have a better computer other than the BBC Micro nor a games console until I saved up with my own money to buy my first 486 100Mz 4MB PC in '95 for college. I only played a little bit of Wing Commander on a friends PC and thought it sucked. So I had very little experience of both games, but my gut feeling in 2012 told me that David Braben was cleverer than Chris Roberts, and I trusted him more to get the procedural generation promised done right. I think Braben went to Cambridge but Roberts had this used car salesman air about him that I did not trust - plus thinking back I thought the Cobra ship looked so cool on a display monitor in that department store in 1984, I wanted that ship then, and realised that I could have it now, or at least in a couple of years time. £100? For a video game? £100?! You gotta be joking! But my dad was not there to remind me that £100 is too much to pay for a video game; this time I could afford such an extravagance...
"Jacuzzi sounds good! Anti-grav sleeping plates are fine too!"
But I just wanted to say this; having just watched the 'Architect reviews' YT videos I am amazed, no, astounded at how gorgeous the interiors of the larger SC ships are. Particularly the Hammerhead combat ship and Carrack explorer over the luxury tourers. I prefer their styles to the tacky luxury yacht styles of the 600i and 890J. They really do look like spaceships should look, at least from our human perspective with all the scifi visual baggage that we come with from films, games and our imaginations. The devs have clearly put an awesome amount of work into creating these fantastic looking ships, and it's such a shame because I really want a Carrack and a Hammerhead now they have been made to look so desirable, but I checked on the CIG website at the price of the Carrack at least, and realised several things:
1. The Carrack costs over $1000 and it's probably going to take thousands of hours to grind for it in game. Much longer than it did for me to grind for my first Anaconda during the early days of ED.
2. The stellar cartography room in the Carrack depicts a single star system, and as far as I know there are not much more than one or two star systems to explore right now in the game 'universe'.
3. Another Youtuber estimates that the game may need a further 8 - 10 years to be complete enough to release, going by all the stretch goals that were promised that have not yet been met making it about 25% complete so far.
4. I can't really see an end to it, there are so many more ships that have been backed now and are still not yet even started on least yet finished, so the project will never be complete unless a publisher steps in and kicks Roberts off to finish the game as has happened in the past. But what is the likelyhood of this happening now that things have been allowed to go on so far, with so many broken promises and so much work yet to do?
It's painful to watch, all that effort that has been put in by the designers is just going to go to waste, and so many backers have such blinkered vision and still don't see it. They continue to play the Alpha, or at least what meagre gameplay is available to them in the vain hope that someday, eventually, they will get their money's worth, but how is a thousand dollars or more ever going to be worth paying for any game? The backers who have still not yet abandoned the project, that are still hanging on and still throwing money into the pit are just sleepwalking through an endless oblivion.
There are so many other space sim games out there right now that cost the same or even less than a SC starter package and who knows where the space sim genre will have got to in ten years. That's enough time for several major game development cycles to take place. Earlier I worried that there would be performance issues with the high-fi graphics, now I'm pretty sure that SC will run on next gen hardware just fine, but the software is going to be yesterdays technology by that time, having been superceeded by dozens of future titles with far better gameplay mechanics and available at far less cost to the player.
What more to say? They've created some very desirable things, and I've got to admit, I really do want that Carrack. But I want to keep my one thousand dollars more than spend it on a virtual exploration starship with no stars to fly it to.
Thank god I decided to back Elite and not Star Citizen. My reasons were simple:
I never got to play the 1984 Elite because my dad said I could have one of the cheaper £6.99 games but not the more expensive Elite that day in the department store (We had a BBC Micro, and I think Elite might have cost £60) But I did briefly get to play the second Frontier Elite on a friends PC later in the early 1990's and I thought it was difficult. I still did not have a better computer other than the BBC Micro nor a games console until I saved up with my own money to buy my first 486 100Mz 4MB PC in '95 for college. I only played a little bit of Wing Commander on a friends PC and thought it sucked. So I had very little experience of both games, but my gut feeling in 2012 told me that David Braben was cleverer than Chris Roberts, and I trusted him more to get the procedural generation promised done right. I think Braben went to Cambridge but Roberts had this used car salesman air about him that I did not trust - plus thinking back I thought the Cobra ship looked so cool on a display monitor in that department store in 1984, I wanted that ship then, and realised that I could have it now, or at least in a couple of years time. £100? For a video game? £100?! You gotta be joking! But my dad was not there to remind me that £100 is too much to pay for a video game; this time I could afford such an extravagance...
"Jacuzzi sounds good! Anti-grav sleeping plates are fine too!"
It doesn't matter, there's very little relationship between what words mean and how Roberts/CIG use them.
That doesn't really take into account CIG's "make a shiny thing first, with the promise that they'll figure out what it's for or how to do all the stuff it implies later" approach. It's not just that they pump out ships based on tech that's in perpetual flux, and which require repeated overhauls, it's that their prime concern is constantly introducing new ideas to attact new cash, without ever having properly developed the old ones.
Definitely. 12 threads with the current one at 400 pages. It's the oldest continuing thread that I know of on this board
