Elite / Frontier Pondering Elite(s)

[Dogran]

Wotcha, forum people.

I'm feeling sort of ambivalent on Elite and its descendants at the moment. I'm not going to dwell too much on Elite IV, since I'm steadily losing faith in that particular holy grail and suspect I'll just have to make do with existing games, community remakes and tepid commercial clones of the format.

But I've been playing a lot of Oolite lately, and it's pretty good. Elite as I remember it - with added graphics and extra frills to make up for the fact that the basic shape of the game is, by modern standards, fairly limited (which isn't to challenge Elite's unassailable position as a gaming classic). The ups of Oolite include the fact that docking's orders of magnitude more satisfying now that I'm using an analogue joystick; its downs include the length of time it takes to get anywhere if you don't have witchdrive injectors.

The trouble is... And I'm sorry about this, but the trouble with Oolite - and by extension with Elite itself - is that, while the game was huge for Those Days, it's not so huge any more. And the game world of E/Oo-lite just isn't as gorgeously detailed and realistic as Frontier and First Encounters. For this reason alone, I prefer these later titles to the original, sacred though it may be. Elite was big, for its time - but the concept of putting an entire galaxy (a real-sized galaxy) of stars, planets and moons on a few hundred kilobytes of my hard drive is stunning. But Frontier and FFE have their own issues: namely, that they're nigh-on impossible to get started in. I know people have, and have gone on to do quite well - but for the life of me I don't know how. I'm fine in FFE while I'm bouncing back and forth between Sol and Barnard's Star. The moment I take on a more adventurous mission and step outside these kindergarten systems, I'm dead. Alarms sound, I see the flash of a laser past my viewscreen, I hear the screaming of tortured metal and the next thing I know bits of my ship're spinning out into the darkness, leaving me sucking on vacuum.

There are no variations to this pattern beyond the length of time it takes my ship to die, which can range between one second and perhaps ten.

I don't know what Elite IV is supposed to include. I can't really understand the approach Frontier (the company) have taken: essentially remaining relentlessly silent for over a decade on probably the most desired title in PC gaming. As I say, I very much doubt it'll ever actually appear, although I hope I'm wrong. For the record, what I'd like to see:

• Procedurally generated, realistic star systems, planets and space stations, including an accurate(ish) model of our own system as in FFE.
• Total sandbox free-form play style: approach the game in whatever way you wish - but allow the game to respond to your play style. If you're obviously interested in mining, have the game emphasise details of that function.
• Fractal-type details on planet surfaces, and proper scaling so that planets actually seem big.
• Ship management: the ship is your character's home, not your character; let's flesh out the details of life on board with character development and ship customisation.
• For the control of your ship, a hybrid of FFE's Newtonian physics and Elite's responsive 'fighter-plane' control style: fight like a fighter, but model orbits and the like accurately (it's little things here, like being able to 'park' your ship in orbit around a planet without coming to an unrealistic dead halt above a single spot).
• A range of difficulty settings so that cack-handed clods like me have a shot at winning at least one combat and aren't effectively restricted to two systems.

So. In the meantime, does anyone have any tips in the meantime on how I can make a little more headway in FFE without being instantly smashed to pieces by pirates?

 

[DraQ]

But Frontier and FFE have their own issues: namely, that they're nigh-on impossible to get started in. I know people have, and have gone on to do quite well - but for the life of me I don't know how. I'm fine in FFE while I'm bouncing back and forth between Sol and Barnard's Star. The moment I take on a more adventurous mission and step outside these kindergarten systems, I'm dead. Alarms sound, I see the flash of a laser past my viewscreen, I hear the screaming of tortured metal and the next thing I know bits of my ship're spinning out into the darkness, leaving me sucking on vacuum.

There are no variations to this pattern beyond the length of time it takes my ship to die, which can range between one second and perhaps ten.

1. Frontier isn't hard, so practice on FE2 first, FFE can be quite violent at times.

2. You've presumably accumulated some wealth during milkruns - buy an Asp, fit it with MD3, all the essential auxiliary equipment like radar mapper and ECM, good gun (4MW beam with cooling booster if you're not a sharpshooter, 5MW pulse/30MW mining laser if you are) and a lot of shields - leave only 18t of free space for fuel and cargo.

3. Unlike FFE FE2 doesn't switch automatically into the "engines off" mode which is necessary for full control over ship's thrusters, so do it manually. Otherwise you'll rarely see your enemy as anything more than a point of light.

4. Survive the first attack run by actively avoiding the laser beam (flying on full burn almost perpendicular to it, with slight slant towards the enemy craft works in most cases). Engage in dogfight, remember that no aerodynamics are involved, so to actively change your trajectory you'll have to use thrusters - [Enter] fires the main, [Shift] fires retros.

Once you move to FFE, you'll die a lot again, but, at least you'll have laid some groundwork for quickly learning how to fight, by instinctually knowing how things work in space. Also, if you use JJFFE, you can fire all the directional thrusters using numpad giving you much better control over the ship. The general fire avoidance tactics detailed above is also valid.

Also, check this link:
http://www.alioth.net/ajn/index.html
(scroll down)
You'll find some comprehensive tutorials there.

I can't really understand the approach Frontier (the company) have taken: essentially remaining relentlessly silent for over a decade on probably the most desired title in PC gaming.

A lot of things happened, including a lawsuit between Braben and Gametek.

• Procedurally generated, realistic star systems, planets and space stations, including an accurate(ish) model of our own system as in FFE.
• Total sandbox free-form play style: approach the game in whatever way you wish - but allow the game to respond to your play style. If you're obviously interested in mining, have the game emphasise details of that function.
• Fractal-type details on planet surfaces, and proper scaling so that planets actually seem big.

Yes.

• Ship management: the ship is your character's home, not your character; let's flesh out the details of life on board with character development and ship customisation.

A bit of meh. Sure, it should be done if possible, but shouldn't be the focus. E4 is meant to be a space-sim, first and foremost.

• For the control of your ship, a hybrid of FFE's Newtonian physics and Elite's responsive 'fighter-plane' control style: fight like a fighter, but model orbits and the like accurately

No, no, and no. I've had enough trouble with FFE mandatory combat "assist" when ship's computer fired the thrusters in the least appropriate moments, even though the effect wasn't that drastic - further arcadization would make it suck much more, not to mention the loss of appealing hard SF-ness.

I'm not against extensive tutorial mode.
I'm also not against equipment assisting combat manoeuvring, as long as:
1. It's optional, allowing me to fly by hand.
2. It works by firing ship's thrusters, rather than suspending the laws of physics.

(it's little things here, like being able to 'park' your ship in orbit around a planet without coming to an unrealistic dead halt above a single spot).

That's unless said orbit is stationary.

 

[Dogran]

1. Frontier isn't hard, so practice on FE2 first, FFE can be quite violent at times.

I'd love to, but I've never managed to bully it into running on my machine. Still, I'll persevere with FFE.

2. You've presumably accumulated some wealth during milkruns - buy an Asp

I did, and I spent it on an Asp, all kitted out... and that's what took ten seconds to die!

3. Unlike FFE FE2 doesn't switch automatically into the "engines off" mode which is necessary for full control over ship's thrusters, so do it manually.

Okay, thanks, I'll look at that. I suppose there's no way you know of to get the game to pause when it drops out of accelerated time? Or would that make things too easy?

4. Survive the first attack run by ...

Noted, thank you.

Also, if you use JJFFE, you can fire all the directional thrusters using numpad giving you much better control over the ship.

Really? I didn't know that. Does that go for the shiny Russian reworking as well? I'll look into it.

A bit of meh. Sure, it should be done if possible, but shouldn't be the focus. E4 is meant to be a space-sim, first and foremost.

No, I wouldn't want it the focus; but I think it would add a little bit of character. I'm not asking for a full-blown 'The Sims in Space' with you and your crew - just a few little on-board tasks that you could carry out if you chose to. For example, performing your own in-flight repairs to save money at stations; crew training (if only something like Starflight); or maybe the game could present you with the occasional decision to make based around life on board, which might affect your efficiency or your reputation. Just something to add a bit of extra colour.

further arcadization would make it suck much more, not to mention the loss of appealing hard SF-ness.

I think I'd take issue with the word 'arcadization', since that's a matter of perception. If you're hard-SF then yes, I can see why you'd want everything entirely 100% realistic. But I don't want it arcadey, particularly - I just think that advances over 1500 years might have resulted in shipboard computers that can make zero-g vacuum manoeuvring a little more intuitive. Believe it or not, I absolutely love playing(?) Orbiter, and like to think I'm moderately good at manoeuvring simulated spacecraft. I understand (to the standard of a keen amateur) how orbits work and I would love to see that degree of 'proper' physics in a Frontier-style game. But, on the other hand, there's a balance between all-out, ruthless realism and finding some satisfaction in combat.

Here's a thought: should combat perhaps be more similar to EVE Online, in the sense that your ship aims and shoots weapons turrets by itself, while you control the thrusters to put it where you want it? EVE employs a combination of factors to decide whether a shot hits or not, so it's still never a sure thing, but gets better as you improve your ship and your skills.

And of course, yes, if it were me I'd include the ability to switch all computer assist off optionally.

That's unless said orbit is stationary.

Well, certainly.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I'll probably change my mind on the combat thing if I ever manage to make any headway in FFE.

 

[Dogran]

I take it all back about orbits. Having had a go at the individual thruster controls as you suggested - which makes it a whole new game, by the way - I've managed to bodge fairly reasonable orbits around Earth, the Moon and Iapetus (don't ask) by hand, along with a slingshot by Saturn to scoop up some fuel.

Nothing to the standards of a competent Orbiter enthusiast, mind, but they did the job.

So I'll revise my wish: a little more precision in controls* and a shipboard computer that displays projected orbital paths. Not that I'm hard to please, or anything...!

(* FFE is a little rough when you're dealing with small-scale adjustments, it must be said.)

 

[DraQ]

I'd love to, but I've never managed to bully it into running on my machine.

Run it under DOSBox, or get the GLFrontier (ctrl+E to cycle between GL, wireframe and classic graphics modes - go for the classic, it's grainy as hell, but doesn't eat up the detail and doesn't cause some embarrassing display bugs, like turning nearby suns blackish-green).

Okay, thanks, I'll look at that. I suppose there's no way you know of to get the game to pause when it drops out of accelerated time? Or would that make things too easy?

Tried [Esc]?

Really? I didn't know that. Does that go for the shiny Russian reworking as well?

Yes, it's still buggy and far from complete, though, so I don't use it.

No, I wouldn't want it the focus; but I think it would add a little bit of character. I'm not asking for a full-blown 'The Sims in Space' with you and your crew - just a few little on-board tasks that you could carry out if you chose to. For example, performing your own in-flight repairs to save money at stations; crew training (if only something like Starflight); or maybe the game could present you with the occasional decision to make based around life on board, which might affect your efficiency or your reputation. Just something to add a bit of extra colour.

Ok. The only thing I think it really needs is crew participating in flying the ship. I want them to do something, be it operating ECM or manning the rear gun in combat, or helping maintain the ship so I can afford servicing it less often (good for exploration).

I think I'd take issue with the word 'arcadization', since that's a matter of perception.

No, it isn't. The game is a space-sim, hence it simulates flying a spaceship, mostly in space. Therefore sacrificing elements that simulate space flight in favour of making it more intuitive shifts it towards arcade. There is no denying that, same as there is no denying that removing elements like stalling, or having to bank when turning from a conventional flight-sim makes it less of a simulator and more of an arcade shooter.
With gazillions of arcade shooters on the market, why should I even care about E4 if it's going to be just another one "pew! pew! i flies an spaec rocket!1" game?

But I don't want it arcadey, particularly - I just think that advances over 1500 years might have resulted in shipboard computers that can make zero-g vacuum manoeuvring a little more intuitive.

Assume two expert pilots. We put them in two identical ships, same armament, same defensive systems, same thruster performance and mass. The only difference is that ones allows the pilot direct control over the thrusters, the other one is guided through a computer that strives to make it's flight behaviour more intuitive. Which one will win in dogfight? Obviously, the first one, he can accelerate in any axis and rotate independently of his velocity vector, while the second one is limited to mimicking atmospheric manoeuvres.

Like I said, I have nothing against optional combat assist systems (as long as they don't break the physics), but view them as more of an analogue of training wheels on a bicycle, not something any serious commander would even consider using.

Besides, the manoeuvring has been made much more intuitive in Frontier. Without complex computer systems balancing your ship above the planet on column of fire emitted by (often lateral or retro) thrusters would be near-impossible task, with such ship being inherently unstable and prone to tipping over, tumbling and crashing, while in FE2 and FFE it's simply a turn and burn affair.

I understand (to the standard of a keen amateur) how orbits work and I would love to see that degree of 'proper' physics in a Frontier-style game.

Well, it's probably not Orbiter grade, but the physics in Frontier is pretty accurate. The objects move around in Newtonian manner, gravity is simulated, putting ship in actual orbit is definitely possible, putting ship in specific orbit (for example stationary one) is very hard, but it's more of a problem with limited control and navigation systems, rather than engine. The game even simulates Coriolis force (implicitly, I guess, Braben would have to be insane programming the engine to do specifically that) - just land on some quickly rotating body, away from it's equator and start flying straight in one direction, using full manual. You'll notice your velocity vector sight drifting to one of the sides.

But, on the other hand, there's a balance between all-out, ruthless realism and finding some satisfaction in combat.

How can you expect satisfaction from combat if you haven't learned to survive basic skirmishes yet?
Learn to fight and the satisfaction will come.
I was very satisfied when I killed my first Imperial Explorer, armed with plasma accelerator and shielded, with measly Adder without shields or ECM, equipped only with 5MW pulse laser.
Similarly I was satisfied when I narrowly avoided crashing into a wall of some canyon-like depression at 20000km/h after evading swarms of intercepting fighters and Imperial Couriers during CLASSIFIED recon mission on some airless moon.
Once you learn how to fight and begin stretching your limits you will be satisfied too.

Here's a thought: should combat perhaps be more similar to EVE Online, in the sense that your ship aims and shoots weapons turrets by itself, while you control the thrusters to put it where you want it? EVE employs a combination of factors to decide whether a shot hits or not, so it's still never a sure thing, but gets better as you improve your ship and your skills.

No, or rather not on smaller ships. Large freighters like Boa, Puma, or Panther would benefit from it, especially given that you'd feel like an actual commander of an actual superfreighter, rather than a trucker.
On smaller ships you should do the targetting, except for maybe some light, short range anti-missile/fighter/subsystem auto-tracking laser I proposed in another thread.

I'll probably change my mind on the combat thing if I ever manage to make any headway in FFE.

Hopefully, hopefully. Read the link and practice. I want to be able to congratulate you.

Edit:

So I'll revise my wish: a little more precision in controls* and a shipboard computer that displays projected orbital paths. Not that I'm hard to please, or anything...!

YES!

I wholeheartedly agree with you!

 

[Dogran]

Tried [Esc]?

Well, yes. It's an extra key to fumble for.

Assume two expert pilots. We put them in two identical ships, same armament, same defensive systems, same thruster performance and mass.

Now assume that one of them is NOT an expert, but simply someone who happens to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Argue by all means that that person should not be flying in the first place, or that they should stick to safe systems. This is a similar argument to that used by the experts in EVE whenever a so-called 'carebear' laments the fact that much of the game is denied them if they happen not to have the skills (bearing in mind that 'skills' in EVE are trained at a set pace over a period of time, rather than being the actual player's own skills). But would it not be sensible to have a game that can accommodate a wide range of abilities, rather than being focused exclusively towards hardcore simmers?

Like I said, I have nothing against optional combat assist systems (as long as they don't break the physics), but view them as more of an analogue of training wheels on a bicycle, not something any serious commander would even consider using.

Perhaps not - but they would be there for those of us who don't have the necessary superhuman reaction times.

How can you expect satisfaction from combat if you haven't learned to survive basic skirmishes yet?
Learn to fight and the satisfaction will come.

I have made one or two kills in the past - if I've been exceptionally lucky and been attacked by a single ship from some distance away.

But let me show you the standard sequence if I should stray much beyond Ross 154-Barnard's Star-Sol:

Set course.
Select Stardreamer.
Alert sound - Flash/Buzz - Dead.

I can't put it any clearer than that. It happened just now and the whole process must have taken less than a second. Now, you can argue that it's all down to skill and practice, but I'd question that. Even if I manage to hit Escape before getting hit in the face by a spinning gravestone, I can do all the preparation I want in pause, select the ship I'm going to target, unpause the game, but I'm consistently dead before I can bring my weapon to bear.

It doesn't matter what the tutorials say about clever use of manual thrusters - thrusters aren't an issue. There is no time to change my velocity.

What skills do you have that enable you to react any more quickly, and how and where did you learn them?

Hopefully, hopefully. Read the link and practice. I want to be able to congratulate you.

Based on experience to date, I suspect you will not get that chance.

 

[DraQ]

What skills do you have that enable you to react any more quickly, and how and where did you learn them?

I have learned them by being repeatedly hit in the face by a spinning tombstone. In other words, been there, done that, and indeed, it felt like there was not enough time to blink, let alone actually react in any coherent manner.

Somehow I learned to get out of the line of fire and survive first 10s of combat, then it all went downhill.

And I don't claim to possess any exceptional skills.
I know a guy, who managed to simultaneously evade five homing missiles, till they ran out of fuel and self-destructed, and that's while being fired upon by several pirate ships.
This might be an example of superhuman skills.
The only better than norm skill I possess is good aim, that's why I tend to fly with 5MW/30MW pulse lasers, other than that, I'm just another guy.
Since most people use beam lasers anyway, I don't think my good aim makes all that much difference.

From what I've seen every FFE player came through this "alarm sounds, you die" phase, and every single one experienced extreme frustration at some moment - you're not alone. I've seen many strikingly similar posts, their authors are competent or above now, and can do a Phekda run while sound asleep.

 

[Dogran]

i'm sure you're right - I've been frustrated at learning difficult things before and there usually comes a day when something clicks into place.

If it should one day happen in this case I'll be sure to let you know.

 

[The Space Pirate]

Hm. I reckon that Elite IV is vapourware, or will come out when we're all 50.

 

[turwhitt]

the concept of putting an entire galaxy (a real-sized galaxy) of stars, planets and moons on a few hundred kilobytes of my hard drive is stunning.

The actual galaxy is generated by an algorythm 800 bytes in size.

Yeah it's pretty stunning!

 

[Dogran]

The actual galaxy is generated by an algorythm 800 bytes in size.

BYTES? So how come no-one else seems to want to do it?

I really don't get it. Why's every other space trading game that might have hoped to compare with Frontier/FFE so determinedly small? EVE has huge star systems that really give a sense of scale, but only a few thousand of them (and mostly held off-limits by alliances). X is a few dozen sectors which each give the impression of being tiny and crowded once you're in them.

For someone like me, who also believes Elite IV will never actually appear, everything else that's been offered so far has been but a pale imitation of FFE. Even if, as this thread suggests, I've never explored a great deal of the FFE galaxy, just knowing it's there is half the atmosphere of the game.

 

[turwhitt]

I really don't get it. Why's every other space trading game that might have hoped to compare with Frontier/FFE so determinedly small? EVE has huge star systems that really give a sense of scale, but only a few thousand of them (and mostly held off-limits by alliances). X is a few dozen sectors which each give the impression of being tiny and crowded once you're in them.
.

Because although the Elite universe is huge, it is effectively like a randomly generated universe. OK it's not random as it's the same every time, but these days gamers wouldn't be happy with details such as:
Name: Kjoogrhyzx
Government: Anarchy
Population: 1.6 billion
Type: Small furry humanoids

... and no other unique features.

These days each planet has to be unique and hand-coded, from the names of its planets and habitats to the NPCs who populate it and the missions/information they give.

As gamers, we just don't have to have that much imagination any more. Sad but true!

 

[DraQ]

Still, we have much more RAM and processing power. Original algorithm was nice, small and efficient, leaving a lot of room for algorithms generating finer detail, like planetary geography, climate zones, layout of cities and so on.

 

[Ril]

Still, we have much more RAM and processing power. Original algorithm was nice, small and efficient, leaving a lot of room for algorithms generating finer detail, like planetary geography, climate zones, layout of cities and so on.

Draq, i share your pessimism, and like you cannot understand the lack of any information regarding this game. The only other game that has come close is EVE, but the other players ruin that expereince some what.

What id like to see i a couple of 100 handcoded systems representing the core of human civilisation ,with NPCs, missions, stuff going on etc, and then when you get into the unknown, it becoms somewhat more repetative, but still interesting enough to get out there. (i would love a mission that lets you explore planets and then receive a finders fee or something)

we can dream

 

[redstar1]

Draq, i share your pessimism, and like you cannot understand the lack of any information regarding this game. The only other game that has come close is EVE, but the other players ruin that expereince some what.

The other players ARE the experience in Eve. Almost everything is PVP, from combat to the economy. Even 'solo' tasks like mining or mission running are essentially a competition for resources with other players. You take out of EVE what you want to in my opinion. I find it a very rewarding game, mainly because of the people I play with. It is similar to the Elite games, but also very very different.

 

[Dogran]

The other players ARE the experience in Eve. Almost everything is PVP, from combat to the economy. Even 'solo' tasks like mining or mission running are essentially a competition for resources with other players. You take out of EVE what you want to in my opinion. I find it a very rewarding game, mainly because of the people I play with. It is similar to the Elite games, but also very very different.

Since I've no doubt I've already come across as a total whiner, I suppose it won't make a deal of difference at this point if I say that my experience with EVE wasn't so great.

The trouble with MMOGs is that they don't cater very well for those of us who aren't all that gregarious. And EVE's particularly bad for this, since the entire culture, by design, is cutthroat and ruthless. Which is fine if you're an aspiring financial type or favour piracy (apparently there's a difference ), but if you're what the pirates deride as a 'carebear', it means a choice between playing on your own and not really getting into the game, or signing up to one of the corps and (in many cases) ending up with essentially a second job, skivvying for the rich and powerful. With many corps, you even have to have an interview, . I blame Guiding Hand, personally.

EVE was fantastic as a game, and like many others I would like to have seen a single-player, offline edition with a simulated economy. Many of the more devoted players would howl heresy at that and say that it just wouldn't work. Maybe it wouldn't, either; but it strikes me about EVE that for all their vaunted time-based training system it's still too much about when you started and who you know.

Given that I think I'm starting (just starting, mind) to get to grips with combat in FFE (to the tune of 'Poor'), I'm probably on dodgy ground arguing for this, but I'd very much like to see a space MMOG where flight and combat depends not on rolling the right random numbers through the right formulas, but on how well you, as a player, can actually control your character or ship. Star Wars Galaxies eventually brought in a direct-aim shooting system, which I think was a positive move; but by then SWG had signed its own death warrant with the other 'enhancements'. In the end, the user base interpreted the direct-aim change as a sop to the console kids and the ADD generation. (Incidentally, I loved SWG so don't think I'm slagging it off. I'm lamenting its end.)

I suppose if you know some good people or (this is important) have the sort of personality that allows you to 'get out there' and get to know other people - bearing in mind that the only people who'll usually come looking for you in EVE are pirates - you could have fun with it. Otherwise, like me, you'll spend your time ratting, salvaging, solo mining and generally getting nowhere.

(Of course the biggest problem with EVE is that something horrible's happened to sterling, and it's a lot more expensive than it was six months ago... )

 

[redstar1]

Since I've no doubt I've already come across as a total whiner, I suppose it won't make a deal of difference at this point if I say that my experience with EVE wasn't so great.

Plenty of people aren't fond of Eve, it really does come down to what style of gameplay you like.

The trouble with MMOGs is that they don't cater very well for those of us who aren't all that gregarious. And EVE's particularly bad for this, since the entire culture, by design, is cutthroat and ruthless. Which is fine if you're an aspiring financial type or favour piracy (apparently there's a difference ), but if you're what the pirates deride as a 'carebear', it means a choice between playing on your own and not really getting into the game, or signing up to one of the corps and (in many cases) ending up with essentially a second job, skivvying for the rich and powerful. With many corps, you even have to have an interview, . I blame Guiding Hand, personally.

This depends entirely on who you end up 'grouping' with. There are corps who demand you do x, y and z, and then there are corps who leave it entirely up to you but suggest that it would be nice if you all did x together sometimes, just so that those who want to can do y and z. It comes down to leadership style more than anything.

EVE was fantastic as a game, and like many others I would like to have seen a single-player, offline edition with a simulated economy. Many of the more devoted players would howl heresy at that and say that it just wouldn't work. Maybe it wouldn't, either; but it strikes me about EVE that for all their vaunted time-based training system it's still too much about when you started and who you know.

I don't think Eve would work as an SP game, at least not in its current form. There would need to be a massive storyline, and hugely diverse AI for it to be anything more than a GUI for Excel. I think it has put itself in a niche market and is doing very well out of it.

I suppose if you know some good people or (this is important) have the sort of personality that allows you to 'get out there' and get to know other people - bearing in mind that the only people who'll usually come looking for you in EVE are pirates - you could have fun with it. Otherwise, like me, you'll spend your time ratting, salvaging, solo mining and generally getting nowhere.

The question then is 'where do you want to get?'. There is no 'end game' in Eve, no 'bosses'. It is perpetual and player driven, you make your own goals and measure your own success. Players conquer, control and lose space. Players craft, trade, pirate, mine, rat, bounty hunt and engage in 1000+ capital ship fleet battles which crash the server. You make your own way in Eve and I think thats what turns a lot of people off. Certainly I had a 2 year break from Eve for more or less that reason.

(Of course the biggest problem with EVE is that something horrible's happened to sterling, and it's a lot more expensive than it was six months ago... )

I haven't paid for game time with cash in months. Players can buy game time cards and sell them for ISK (in game currency). If you can make enough money, you can play for free.

 

[Spacegamer]

BYTES? So how come no-one else seems to want to do it?

Personally I think the reason we have not seen more games like FFE is simply the cost

ie Planets = Content = Time = Money.

So when a dev is making this type of game, they go for a simple Elite model.
Add some nice graphic and hype a few features.

Job done.

 

[Dogran]

I haven't paid for game time with cash in months. Players can buy game time cards and sell them for ISK (in game currency). If you can make enough money, you can play for free.

I've just seen the advert they sent me by email trying to persuade me to sign up again. It told me about the 'PLEX' - the market-tradeable game time code they're running now. There was a screenshot of a market screen.

315,000,000 ISK.

For thirty days.

Never going to happen. In three years of playing, I barely saw a hundredth of that. Total. Altogether.

I'm sure GTCs and PLEX are great if you're one of those people who can't seem to move in EVE without millions falling out of them, but if your average monthly turnover is a couple of hundred grand? No chance.

 

[DraQ]

Personally I think the reason we have not seen more games like FFE is simply the cost

ie Planets = Content = Time = Money.

Except that almost the entire galaxy in FE2/FFE is generated by relatively tiny piece of code.