So cross-faction massacre + assassination stacking is the surviving meta?

The Wing payout system and the stacking counter system both need looking at by Fdev.
The benefit of a wing should be the reduced risk and increased fire power, not the Handwavium 100% payout to each member for a single kill and the mission kills counting multiple times for one kill.

Hopefully in the new year those things will be addressed.
This is the way.
 
The Wing payout system and the stacking counter system both need looking at by Fdev.
The benefit of a wing should be the reduced risk and increased fire power, not the Handwavium 100% payout to each member for a single kill and the mission kills counting multiple times for one kill.

Hopefully in the new year those things will be addressed.
This is the way.
Wing missions really just need to be scrapped, and instead just put in "missions" with comparable mechanics/ payouts, and then any mission handed in by anyone gets the credits split between all wing members. Of course, some missions will fall foul or the 50m crash cap, but i guess that's something that simply needs to be fixed.
 
I'm thinking you may be right. But I'm going to suggest that there won't be even a fraction of the community uptake in comparison to Mining, the recent trade boom or any previous gold rush (including mass stacking massacres before it was changed). Certainly not as much of a new player uptake seen with mining for the past few years.

The actual process isn't nearly as cookie cutter, nor immediately accessible on day one, as most gold rushes tend to be. Just finding the right system, even with that tool (which isn't that well known) and then needing to switch systems due to BGS (or working out how to control it) is way more involved that most gold rushes.

I'd suggest most will stick to Mining. The only way massacre stacking offers a quick route to riches from day one is if a friend shares wing missions with you. And even then, the actual process of building a suitable ship? Learning combat? Then actually doing it? Just not the same.
IN another words, its a elitist and exclusive GOLD rush, that pay WAY more than other ones but are limited to certain old and already rich/powerfull individuals.
Nice way to "balance" the game
 
And BTW, doing combat with a full enginered ship is NOT more risky than mining painite, actually minig/trading can be more dangerous in a shieldless t9. (Because interdictions + asteroid colisions)
In a 2 wing combat is THAT risky that people can do it AFK with the magical healing lasers... LOL.
 
As long as you can stack massacre missions from multiple factions and with one ship kill get credit for an assassination mission and all of the stacked massacres, it simply won't be possible to keep it at a balanced state.

The fact they got buffed when they were already pretty profitable shows they've been mostly unaware of this potential or have been underestimating it - hopefully it will now get the attention it needs to get it fixed.
 
And BTW, doing combat with a full enginered ship is NOT more risky than mining painite, actually minig/trading can be more dangerous in a shieldless t9. (Because interdictions + asteroid colisions)
In a 2 wing combat is THAT risky that people can do it AFK with the magical healing lasers... LOL.
If people can put healing lasers on their ships, others can put shields to their T9s too ;)
 
And BTW, doing combat with a full enginered ship is NOT more risky than mining painite, actually minig/trading can be more dangerous in a shieldless t9. (Because interdictions + asteroid colisions)
That logic never sticks though. It's why most decent games implement reasonable progression and "risk versus reward" via a reasonable challenge rating system.

To speak to that in D&D terms... just because someone with the hottest equipment and Level 20 skills can stomp a level 10 challenge blind, doesn't mean they don't get rewarded less than a level 1 character struggling with a level 2 challenge.

Conversely, just because a player can stomp any NPC in sight because they have a murderboat engineered to the hilt doesn't mean they should be rewarded less than a shieldless, unarmoured T9 which might accidentally run into an asteroid.

I can happily mine painite or voipals in a basic sidewinder. I can't clear a wing assassination single handedly even in a fully engineered sidewinder. The latter is clearly the more challenging scenario.

Maybe if mining VOs involved tankinga spec ops wing while in your T9, we could start talking about comparative rewards. Currently, mining simply needs far less investment to see the big results.

Pirate attack threat 5&6 sites though? Rewards for them are still a kick in the teeth compared to anything else.
 
Last edited:
IN another words, its a elitist and exclusive GOLD rush, that pay WAY more than other ones but are limited to certain old and already rich/powerfull individuals.
Nice way to "balance" the game
Translation:

"I like easy gold rushes but when you take them away from me and all that's left is a way of making half of the same credits and with much more effort and skill then I don't like them any more"
 
Lots of people were all over it pre- stacking nerf, so i don't think there's much barrier to learning combat for this case. It's not like that 5&6 PA sites or CZs.
I agree, though the actual doing combat wasn't the main point, more a footnote on how long it takes for brand new players to fully open up.

The response to the original rush was pretty big because the method was really basic. And limited only by your willingness to relog enough times to hit the mission cap which was high (20?) and CZ systems are a dime a dozen.

It's just not the same now. Not even close. And that rush was nothing compared to the mining rush, which I think is responsible for a huge influx of new players (not a bad thing, not necessarily great either, depends on the player).

And don't forget Robigo is still there. That's way simpler, way less prep and still pays up to 100m/h (though I actually think that calculation is flawed because the passenger missions don't generate fast enough to keep up with constant runs every 10 minutes; still very good money for very little effort).

We'll see though. I personally think earning credits is getting there. My third play through, the availability of credits as the commander has ranked up, has felt pretty good.
 
Translation:

"I like easy gold rushes but when you take them away from me and all that's left is a way of making half of the same credits and with much more effort and skill then I don't like them any more"
Translation: I like to be disonest and pretend that there are no broken mechanic that will alow me and my fellow wingmates to earn Bi/hour rates doing a risk free activity(No, you will not convice me that a wing of enginered ships will have any risk to PVE), while i am also a hypocrite that also think that people doing 50-100mi/h on other activities are "exploiters".

LOL
 
I agree, though the actual doing combat wasn't the main point, more a footnote on how long it takes for brand new players to fully open up.

The response to the original rush was pretty big because the method was really basic. And limited only by your willingness to relog enough times to hit the mission cap which was high (20?) and CZ systems are a dime a dozen.

It's just not the same now. Not even close. And that rush was nothing compared to the mining rush, which I think is responsible for a huge influx of new players (not a bad thing, not necessarily great either, depends on the player).

And don't forget Robigo is still there. That's way simpler, way less prep and still pays up to 100m/h (though I actually think that calculation is flawed because the passenger missions don't generate fast enough to keep up with constant runs every 10 minutes; still very good money for very little effort).

We'll see though. I personally think earning credits is getting there. My third play through, the availability of credits as the commander has ranked up, has felt pretty good.
Fair, though the current meta is still pants on head easy compared to its poor cousin, the threat 5&6 pirate activity sites
 
And BTW, doing combat with a full enginered ship is NOT more risky than mining painite, actually minig/trading can be more dangerous in a shieldless t9. (Because interdictions + asteroid colisions)
In a 2 wing combat is THAT risky that people can do it AFK with the magical healing lasers... LOL.
Neither is risky these days. The days when the loss of a ship was catastrophic are long gone.

The whole measurement of risk is so subjectively vague. What a waste of time that is.

A much more useful (still subjective) measurement is effort versus reward. The time, application and research required can be much better measured to determine reward.

Not just time. Otherwise explorers might start getting Visions of grandeur...

Anyway, mining takes some reasonable time and effort. It deserves good rewards. Once the pwa is fixed, I think mining is the most complete and fleshed out game play loop, short of combat (which is fleshed out but an utter mess balance wise), because it offers three methods that all work perfectly well together. It's way more fun than it was at launch. And should reward effort more (ie core mining > subsurface > laser in terms of effort).

Given you still need to sell the ore, I'm pretty happy that loop gets paid really well. But basic laser mining doesn't take much effort. Set up time (from new commander to mining) is extremely fast (a matter of hours) and there is no module ladder to climb and engineering only serves to speed you up a touch, it's strictly not necessary to do all mining.

So, yeh. I'd say the absolute ceiling for combat credits requires a lot more time and effort and research. I still don't know if it pays much more than mining? The mining community haven't been very forthcoming about providing tangible statistics or feedback about how good mining is right now.

Maybe you could do that?

Until you do, I fully believe more effort and time invested should reward more credits. Games with higher skill ceilings and that till maintain new player friendly approaches are the best games. You're not going to change my mind on that one.
 
Last edited:
That logic never sticks though. It's why most decent games implement reasonable progression and "risk versus reward" via a reasonable challenge rating system.

To speak to that in D&D terms... just because someone with the hottest equipment and Level 20 skills can stomp a level 10 challenge blind, doesn't mean they don't get rewarded less than a level 1 character struggling with a level 2 challenge.

Conversely, just because a player can stomp any NPC in sight because they have a murderboat engineered to the hilt doesn't mean they should be rewarded less than a shieldless, unarmoured T9 which might accidentally run into an asteroid.

I can happily mine painite or voipals in a basic sidewinder. I can't clear a wing assassination single handedly even in a fully engineered sidewinder. The latter is clearly the more challenging scenario.

Maybe if mining VOs involved tankinga spec ops wing while in your T9, we could start talking about comparative rewards. Currently, mining simply needs far less investment to see the big results.

Pirate attack threat 5&6 sites though? Rewards for them are still a kick in the teeth compared to anything else.
In that case, on most RPg`s i have played if you are much stronger than the NPC you will get nothing in return, EXP or Drops.
The challenge on mining is the actual boring /repetitive gameplay, people will do it just to earn credits (Not anymore tho - at least on elite).
The same to the cargo transport missions, they demand time and assets not skill, and even before the current (bal3) nerf already pay less than combat, not need to inutilizeit like they did.
Everyone knows that is possible to do pirate assasination missions on a sidewinder if you know what you are doing, will just take a little more time.
 
Translation: I like to be disonest and pretend that there are no broken mechanic that will alow me and my fellow wingmates to earn Bi/hour rates doing a risk free activity(No, you will not convice me that a wing of enginered ships will have any risk to PVE), while i am also a hypocrite that also think that people doing 50-100mi/h on other activities are "exploiters".

LOL
Your effort was good but not quite as punchy.

I didn't think mining was an exploit. I quite think the process deserves to be very well paid. But glad it's been made a bit less nuts.

Wing sharing needs attention too. Don't think Jmanis is specifically referring to that though (mentions it but it's not going to cause a massive rush because... You need friends hah), just the basic method of cross stacking, new bounties and solo missions now make massacres very appealing.

I'm sorry this topic angers you so much though. You should try piracy for some perspective.
 
Last edited:
In that case, on most RPg`s i have played if you are much stronger than the NPC you will get nothing in return, EXP or drops.
The challenge on mining is the actual boring /repetitive gameplay, people will do it just to earn credits (Not anymore tho - at least on elite).
That's one way to do it, but very far from the only way.

Most RPGs i play, rewards for low level challenges don't change if you're high level; it's just the rewards of doing them for the effort involved are much lower than you'd get doing something harder, for the effort involved. Why one-hit a rat for 10xp when you can put in ten times that effort for a hundred times the reward.

But mining? Mining painite is the same effort as mining water. So it should pay like water.[1]

Oh, and rewarding boring activities is trashbin design, creating disinterest in your more challenging scenarios by making them reward less. That mentality needs to hurry up and die already.

[1] i know I'm being flippant here, but everyone who tries to justify the effort of mining high value minerals forgets this part of the equation. Unless of course, we're arguing mining water should pay as much as painite.
 
Last edited:
Fair, though the current meta is still pants on head easy compared to its poor cousin, the threat 5&6 pirate activity sites
Sorry missed this post. Man, were those a disappointment. Everyone was talking them up but they're so tame... Tough targets sure just... No assisting, no sense to it. Flat.

As I said, we'll see. Based on the current response to this thread, where the main argument has been "asteroids are risky", I'm feeling my point might be somewhat justified so far :D
 
That's one way to do it, but very far from the only way.

Most RPGs i play, rewards for low level challenges don't change if you're high level; it's just the rewards of doing them for the effort involved are much lower than you'd get doing something harder, for the effort involved. Why one-hit a rat for 10xp when you can put in ten times that effort for a hundred times the reward.

But mining? Mining painite is the same effort as mining water. So it should pay like water.[1]

Oh, and rewarding boring activities is trashbin design, creating disinterest in your more challenging scenarios by making them reward less. That mentality needs to hurry up and die already.

[1] i know I'm being flippant here, but everyone who tries to justify the effort of mining high value minerals forgets this part of the equation. Unless of course, we're arguing mining water should pay as much as painite.
Quite a lot of this post is spot on. We don't always agree but man do you get me with the whole mmorpg, dull = rewarding nonsense that so many players seem to love.
 
Sorry missed this post. Man, were those a disappointment. Everyone was talking them up but they're so tame... Tough targets sure just... No assisting, no sense to it. Flat.

As I said, we'll see. Based on the current response to this thread, where the main argument has been "asteroids are risky", I'm feeling my point might be somewhat justified so far :D
I have a Krait i use for all purpose missions including hijack, delivery/source, salvage. It can do standard assassinations and massacres without much effort, but an FDL in one these sites is too much. Contrast against my battleconda, where it's really only a matter of time before a kill goes down... but I'll run out of ammo after about 10 kills, as opposed to massacres where it'd last for 40-odd, so they're my meter sticks :)
 
Back
Top Bottom