Europe: The Great Forgotten. DLC?

[Aramar]

Elk is not from Europe. Elk, wapiti or north American deer is a completly different species from our European Red deer

I think the Alces alces is called "moose" in America and "elk" in Europe and the Cervus canadensis is called "elk" in America and "wapiti" in Europe, hence that there are often misunderstandings.

 

[nutrit]

I thought about it a lot and now that Frontier raised the bar so high with Aquatic DLC it would be very hard to come back to regular packs with just animals - without any new mechanics.

European and NA animals are very close to my heart and I would love to have at least some of them in the game but now I think that they just won’t sell well as a pack of just new models that are not so interesting and appealing to the gamers as a whole as are for us - the animal enthusiasts.

In my opinion only cougar and moose are the iconic species from northern hemisphere that would interest a wider audience. But they both could be fitted in any other pack like highland pack for cougar and swamp pack for moose as an example.

After seeing what people really expect in the DLC I would say with deep regret that European DLC would be a shoot in the foot for Frontier now.

 

[random goat]

In my opinion only cougar and moose are the iconic species from northern hemisphere that would interest a wider audience.

But..that's a bit exaggerated, isn't it? Those two are definetely the more appealing, but I can think of at least a handful of 'northern' animals that would sell pretty well according to people's whislists: wolverine, lynx (any), Amur leopard, Alpine ibex, American alligator, Arctic fox...

 

[nutrit]

Yeah maybe. But I even visited my local zoos last weekend to see it for myself - and let’s be honest the species like lynx, deer or fox are not the highlights of any zoo. Don’t get me worng I love and appreciate those species dearly but they are always placed at the borderline of the zoo. And what I wanted to say is that the average player see those species in the exact same way - as the borderline of animal attractiveness. In my head those species are amazing and diverse but I am trying to be real and honest here and the truth is that most of people doesn’t see them that way.

 

[Aramar]

They can easily add a sea lion or American alligator to the North America pack and a beaver to the European pack to make them more appealing by includding one aquatic animal.

The mountain lion and Alpine ibex would be appealing for building new step rocky habitats (the way the Dall sheep did, but with animals more easy to use in warmer zoos).

A European badger or a prairie dog could be the occasion to add burrowing to the game (which could be used for the meerkats in a future).

A raccoon or a barbary macaque could come with improved climbing.

A moose or a deer could be used to implement antler/horn variations (this is the least probable, I know).

The lynx would add a medium size cat which has less space requirement than its bigger relatives

In any case, an this is pure personal opinion, after such a big new DLC in terms of animations and new features, I'm expecting that the next DLC is going to be more modest. They need to save the big DLCs to bring back attention to the game a bit later. Also, once all the big difficult animations are added to the game (jumping and poachs for kangaroos, diving, better climbing or brachiation, flying...), they can devote more time to create more animals per pack and less time to developing new mechanics.

 

[markun]

Yeah maybe. But I even visited my local zoos last weekend to see it for myself - and let’s be honest the species like lynx, deer or fox are not the highlights of any zoo.

In your opinion, not mine.

but they are always placed at the borderline of the zoo.

Which zoo?

I am trying to be real and honest here and the truth is that most of people doesn’t see them that way.

No one is suggesting that Planet Zoo should become Planet medium sized Wildpark somewhere in central Germany (although personally I think that would be an amazing game) but plenty major zoos have animals like elk (moose), alpine ibex, Eurasian lynx and more and I see no reason why they should be excluded.

 

[nutrit]

In your opinion, not mine.



Which zoo?



No one is suggesting that Planet Zoo should become Planet medium sized Wildpark somewhere in central Germany (although personally I think that would be an amazing game) but plenty major zoos have animals like elk (moose), alpine ibex, Eurasian lynx and more and I see no reason why they should be excluded.

It’s not an opinion it’s a fact. Every zoo I have visited treated local species as a somewhat curiosity and they were never highlights. I have visited more than 120 zoo’s in my life so I think I’m entitled to have my own opinion. European species are never placed in the main alleys or worse they are mixed other species for even more confusion for the guests. There are very few zoo’s in Europe that make special adjustments for local species - exotics are just more popular for the visitors and that is also a fact.

I have never said northern hemisphere species are not attractive for me because I can enjoy every species and many of them have a very special place in my heart but it’s not about that. It’s about sales of the potential DLC.

What I said was that I don’t think that other people would find that kind of DLC worth buying and it still doesn’t mean I wouldn’t buy it.
If I could decide we would have tons of more species in the game and not so many exclusions.
And also it is great you have different opinion and I respect that. That is the beauty of it all.

 

[markun]

It’s not an opinion it’s a fact. Every zoo I have visited treated local species as a somewhat curiosity and they were never highlights. I have visited more than 120 zoo’s in my life so I think I’m entitled to have my own opinion.

Exactly, your opinion. We have both been to around the same total number of zoos and I disagree with your opinion and don't accept it as a fact at all. But there is no point discussing this further as I have nothing else to say.

 

[nutrit]

Exactly, your opinion. We have both been to around the same total number of zoos and I disagree with your opinion and don't accept it as a fact at all. But there is no point discussing this further as I have nothing else to say.

I truly respect that and if you change your mind and would like to point out zoo’s that treat our European species as a highlights of they collection I would really like to know which zoo’s or enclosures you have in mind. I may be wrong that is just how I feel now about that.

 

[markun]

I truly respect that and if you change your mind and would like to point out zoo’s that treat our European species as a highlights of they collection I would really like to know which zoo’s or enclosures you have in mind. I may be wrong that is just how I feel now about that.

I don't have a lot of time to go through maps and websites now but off the top of my head:

Madrid: Right at the entrance you have Iberian lynx, birds of prey, brown bears, wolves, boar, wisent, Iberian ibex, deer and more.

Munich: shortly after entering you see chamois, alpine marmots, elk (moose) and ibex. Plus wolves, wolverines, Heck horses and cattle

Copenhagen: Right next to the elephants and main entrance you have polar bears, seals, reindeer, musk oxen, snowy owls, arctic foxes, brown bears and wolves.

Gaia Zoo Kerkrade has a large European section

Tierpark Berlin has large numbers of European species and domestic breeds too.

And without even listing all the Wildpark type collections and smaller zoos that focus exclusively on native species there are major zoos like Bern, Helsinki, Highland Wildlife Park, Alpenzoo Innsbruck with a focus on European or cold climate species.

 

[Aramar]

It is true that European areas are not that common in zoos and that even zoos that have one don't usually put them on the spotlight. I would like to share an example of a zoo with a nice European representation, because the same that I enjoy learning about other zoos all over the world, maybe someone can find this interesting to know.

This doesn't justify anything and it might be the exception confirming the rule, but since we are in a European thread, let's see a European zoo with a nice European area: Madrid Zoo.

Although the stars of the park are the giant pandas, and the gorillas have a prominent place in the zoo, right next to the entrance we find the European area:

-Grey wolf
-Eurasian brown bear
-Iberian lynx
-European wissent
-Reindeer
-Wild board
-Barbary sheep

-Spanish imperial eagle
-Griffon vulture
-White-tailed eagle
-White stork
-Snowy owl

-Pere David's Deer (not European, but a deer after all)

I dont find this selection boring or unappealing. They might not be the most famous animals in the world, but they are very interesting animals to me.

 

[Cynogale bennettii II]

I remember seeing that the conservation charity Rewilding Europe made several lists of charismatic 'fives' in the manner of the African Big Five that covered various groups of animal as well as one group each for plants and fungi. These are the listed animals, with their possible suitability for Planet Zoo included as well: those species with (x) are ones that would not be suitable for the game because of current limitations or ethical reasons and those with (e) could be exhibit animals:

Fabulous Five (Land): Wolf (already in-game), moose, Eurasian lynx, European bison, brown bear
Fabulous Five (Water): Basking shark (x), Atlantic sturgeon (x), fin whale (x), loggerhead sea turtle, Mediterranean monk seal
Flying Five: Bearded vulture (x), common crane, Dalmatian pelican, great bustard, golden eagle (x)
Forgotten Five: Wild horse, kulan, saiga antelope, Tauros cattle, Persian leopard
Funny Five: Barbary macaque, common chameleon (e), Eurasian otter, European souslik, olm (e)
Fine Five: Stag beetle (e), banded demoiselle (e), two-tailed pascha butterfly (e OR x), isabelline moth (e), iris mantis (e)

The full PDF is here:

https://www.rewildingeurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Europes-Five.pdf

I think there is some scope of using a few animals from this list. One species on this list I would particularly want to include in a hypothetical European pack is the Dalmatian pelican - Europe already has 50% of its global population and there are now plans afoot to reintroduce them to eastern England.

The inclusion of the leopard would depend on where you consider the border of Europe to be - some sources I have seen mention the area of western Russia where the current Persian leopard reintroduction is taking place being part of Europe and others part of Asia - certainly the reserves the leopards are being released in seem to mainly have European species with the red and Western roe deer, European bison, chamois, Eurasian lynx and European mink particularly having mostly European ranges.

 

[SalamAnders]

Copenhagen: Right next to the elephants and main entrance you have polar bears, seals, reindeer, musk oxen, snowy owls, arctic foxes, brown bears and wolves.

I can give a small update on this, which was shared last month I think, in case anybody is interested. Wolves and brown bears are going away (I think the wolves are gone, and one bear is left), because the enclosures are too small and outdated. The space will be used to expand the polar bear enclosure as far as I remember.

 

[Henkenstijn]

I truly respect that and if you change your mind and would like to point out zoo’s that treat our European species as a highlights of they collection I would really like to know which zoo’s or enclosures you have in mind. I may be wrong that is just how I feel now about that.

There might be some exceptions, but all Scandinavian zoos are for at least 50% filled with European animals

 

[Jeminyne]

Every zoo I have visited treated local species as a somewhat curiosity and they were never highlights.

I'm a little confused by this statement, because "local" means something very different depending on where the zoo is located. Of course, it's true that local animals are not usually the star, unless the zoo is a tourist location. There are zoos in Australia that have kangaroo walk-in habitats, for the tourists of course, given that most native Australians see them all the time in their own back yards.

My local zoo (Greater Vancouver) sometimes had rescued raccoons and local birds of prey. Not very exciting for us, but I think tourists enjoy seeing them. In fact I think most of our animals are from North America-- granted that's because it's not a very good zoo, so it's lacking in diversity. But we still enjoy the bus tour that takes us up close to black bears, bison, and elk. The Arctic wolves and Arctic foxes are also cool.

I think most zoos in the world highlight African, South American, and Asian animals as the stars, due to being quite "extreme" environments with high biodiversity. (Same for other extremes, like polar bears, southern elephant seals, and penguins...) But a zoo in say, Asia or Australia, would probably benefit from having European and North American animals, right?

 

[paul78]

I know my local zoo doesn’t have any European animals that I can think of anyway. I do think PZ needs them tho. The red deer is the obvious choice here imo especially with decor dedicated to this animal. A lynx either European or Iberian would be great for a small cat species even if many other options exist. The other 2 would be wildcards at this point as a few other species come to mind. Zt2 had a user created expansion pack called European expeditions which many of you might be familiar with created by Hendrix which was a community favorite.

 

[NZFanatic]

I just want to reiterate that I really don't think it should be a question of whether European animals ought to be included. I doubt anyone here would deliberately avoid buying a DLC that contained European animals.

It's not even a question of whether or not a European-specific DLC would be worth doing. It's a question of whether a European DLC is now likely.

Based on current evidence of what might be coming next, we can only look at two main points - the Aquatic Pack was not continent-specific (neither was the Arctic Pack, but the Arctic Pack was still far less expansive as a theme), and we know there's a sun bear on file.

So the logical conclusions we can draw here are that whatever comes next might include the sun bear, and might not be continent-focussed.

As far as Europe is concerned, what does this mean? Literally nothing! European animals are still entirely on the cards no matter what. Exactly in what manner they might be included is entirely up in the air, however.

My whole discourse on this thread has been in service of the idea that a European DLC is not "forgotten", it's just that European animals might not specifically come as part of a European DLC.

 

[SalamAnders]

There might be some exceptions, but all Scandinavian zoos are for at least 50% filled with European animals

When it comes to Norway and Sweden you are right that most got a big amount of native species (50% is putting it too high with a lot of them though).

In Denmark, which is also part of Scandinavia, it isn't the case. You can find one park with only Scandinavian species. Another with wildlife (native and invasive) from Denmark. Then Copenhagen Zoo got a descent Nordic area (the amount of species is going down though). The rest (and we got a descent amount of zoos compared to our size), doesn't really have focus on it, with typical 0-5 European species

 

[Henkenstijn]

When it comes to Norway and Sweden you are right that most got a big amount of native species (50% is putting it too high with a lot of them though).

In Denmark, which is also part of Scandinavia, it isn't the case. You can find one park with only Scandinavian species. Another with wildlife (native and invasive) from Denmark. Then Copenhagen Zoo got a descent Nordic area (the amount of species is going down though). The rest (and we got a descent amount of zoos compared to our size), doesn't really have focus on it, with typical 0-5 European species

Sorry, you are absolutely right, should have said Scandinavian peninsula.

So the logical conclusions we can draw here are that whatever comes next might include the sun bear, and might not be continent-focussed.

The sun bear is very likely to come in the next DLC. About the continents/region based DLC's i have a different opinion. I strongly believe they will continue with the continent based DLC's and that the aquatic DLC was released roughly a year after release to give the game some boost in new mechanics. The new DLC was technically seen way more work then the previous ones. That is why i think they will go back to "normal" and finish the continent/region based DLC's.

 

[NL_Mutso]

About the continents/region based DLC's i have a different opinion. I strongly believe they will continue with the continent based DLC's and that the aquatic DLC was released roughly a year after release to give the game some boost in new mechanics. The new DLC was technically seen way more work then the previous ones. That is why i think they will go back to "normal" and finish the continent/region based DLC's.

I think the same. A somewhat 1 year celebration with a different type of DLC. I think they will continue this path and the next big thing will be november/december 2021.

There's a "leak" Markun mentioned from 4Chan about desert DLC - sometimes surprising how correct they can be with certain news.
So it could be different - Arctic wasn't a continent either, so not all DLC have been continent.