You do not need the entire area to be that depth. Just make one small deep section to satisfy requirements then the rest can be shallower. Problem solved and no need for heartbreak.
Mixed feelings and thoughts about the Aquatic DLC.
- Thread starter Danny_zoo
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No disrespect Chante, but the conservation message behind it isn't a very good reason for doing it if it doesn't really hold up in reality (technical limitations are a lot easier to swallow). This sounds a lot like what we went through with the polar bear (even with the halved requirements the largest polar bear exhibit in the world is still short of the game by a whole square kilometer, and that includes both land and water and all the behind-the-scenes facilities).
Friendly reminder that 1 square kilometer is 1000 m X 1000m = 1,000,000 m2 (and not 1,000 m2)
this is so needlessly condescending
Yes, I can understand that, which is why I explained further. We absolutely want the facilitate a game where we advocate for keeping the animals in it as happy as possible. So that’s something we keep in mind. But also, as I shared, with deep swimming there is a requirement for a certain amount of space for the animals to perform their animations correctly. The team had been working on deep swimming for a long time prior to you all getting yours hands on it, and have looked at walking that fine line between making sure the animals function correctly from a dev point of view and giving you all the ability to build the habitats you desire. As I said, happy to go back and speak to the devs on this to share some more feedback on the requirements!
It might be the least problematic for you and that is totally fine. But it is definitely a concern for me, as it impairs creativity and flexibility of design in the game. As an example and side note, many have complained about animals space requirements in the game, and those claims have total validation. However, that is something I can live with in sandbox, because all I have to do is turn welfare off and now I can built with realism and accuracy in mind instead of having any imposed limitation. The same concept can not be attributed to this feature, because there is no way for me or anyone else that is affected to turn it off. It is a specific requirement for the animation to activate.
Now I understand that it is a game, however it is a game about zoos, and the devs have done a tremendous job in other areas. If you and anyone else wants to built fantasy zoos that is perfectly understandable and something that the game certainly allows as well. I happen to be in the opposite spectrum, a would prefer a realistic design. If I can not find an acceptable compromise with the certain area of the game I usually ignore and do not use it (like the orangutan animations and behavior that I have been complaining about since the game was released) I rather use it all of it though, so it is a legitimate concern for me, no one is trying to create any non existing issues, not sure what you even meant, as it really makes no sense.
Yes, I can understand that, which is why I explained further. We absolutely want the facilitate a game where we advocate for keeping the animals in it as happy as possible. So that’s something we keep in mind. But also, as I shared, with deep swimming there is a requirement for a certain amount of space for the animals to perform their animals correctly. The team had been working on deep swimming for a long time prior to you all getting yours hands on it, and have looked at walking that fine line between making sure the animals function correctly from a dev point of view and giving you all the ability to build the habitats you desire. As I said, happy to go back and speak to the devs on this to share some more feedback on the requirements!
Chante thank you for clarifying the specifics behind the limitations. If you could pass along the feedback to the devs it would be great. The main concern here is with the Giant Otters and Caimans, if somehow the depth requirement could be changed to 2 meters, it would be greatly welcomed. At this point even a moderate variation of the animations, at this depth, any compromise would be acceptable. Also, even having the current required depth space for the animations in a limited space within the exhibit pool is not triggering the animations, also of concern, because this would be another acceptable compromise in my opinion.
Friendly reminder that 1 square kilometer is 1000 m X 1000m = 1,000,000 m2 (and not 1,000 m2)
Good call, I'm terrible at math.
Yes, I can understand that, which is why I explained further. We absolutely want the facilitate a game where we advocate for keeping the animals in it as happy as possible. So that’s something we keep in mind. But also, as I shared, with deep swimming there is a requirement for a certain amount of space for the animals to perform their animals correctly. The team had been working on deep swimming for a long time prior to you all getting yours hands on it, and have looked at walking that fine line between making sure the animals function correctly from a dev point of view and giving you all the ability to build the habitats you desire. As I said, happy to go back and speak to the devs on this to share some more feedback on the requirements!
Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't think this diminishes the work put into it. It's a beautiful system and as far as I'm concerned it's perfect for the seals and penguins (which are the two I personally will be using the most anyway). You guys have gone above and beyond with this one, and I don't think anybody doubts that. Of course, we as fans and players also have a fine line to walk between heaping on praise and being excited while at the same time expressing our concerns and providing feedback. I think I speak for a lot of avid members of the community when I say that I often feel squeamish about saying I don't like something, especially when I know what work has gone into it.
As I said, technical limitations are easy to swallow (at least, for me). From the start I kind of assumed it had similar limitations to the animal hitboxes (I recall that you informed us that clipping issues were preventing the hitboxes from being reduced).
Ok, Iben thank you for your response and sharing that information with us. I wished I had read your post before replying to Chante. I was under the impression based on her feedback in this post, that it was in fact a technical limitation. The animal welfare message for both the caiman and giant otter is mind boggling to me, I can not even think or imagine that anyone within the zoo world would have given them such feedback, this has to be an error.
I'm going to copy and paste from a different thread to avoid repeating myself, but please anyone confuse with what this actually means for zoos when it comes to the giant otter species, please do read. As far as the caiman, I think that it is self explanatory and needless to even attempt saying otherwise. This was in response to another forum member who thought that a 13 feet depth requirement was realistic for Giant Otters in a zoo simulation game.
I think you are missing the point about the 4 meters being unrealistic. Obviously giant otters can and will go this deep in real life if necessary, they can hold their breath for up to 8 minutes, so they are perfectly capable. Some of the areas within the Amazon where they live have much bigger depth than this. Now if we are simply speaking about their natural behavior in the wild, Giant Otters tend to spend considerable amounts of time along the banks of the river and shallow water. While possible, the notion that they are diving and swimming in 4 meters of water is just not factual. Secondary, the other ecosystem where Giant otters are found is the Pantanal, (swamplands) This natural habitat for the Giant Otters is mostly shallow in depth, definitely not 13 feet in its majority. Even though I'm not an animal behaviorist expert, I spent a substantial amount of time researching Giant otters, during the construction of their award winning exhibit at Zoo Miami. We wanted to have the best possible natural reference, and went as far as taking a trip to La Plata for this.
Now none of what I stated above relates very little in any way to this game, because this is a zoo simulation game, and even though the primary and core mission of any zoo is to emulate as best as possible the animal's natural habitat, there are many other variables and elements that are critical while building an exhibit. There are many reasons why building a giant otter exhibit that has a 13+ feet depth is not realistic or practical in the zoo world. First you want to account for the animal and its needs, in the case of giant otters, this particular species benefits from multi level habitats that feature a number of engaging features related to water, none of them in relation to 13 feet depth though. You want to recreate a stream area, a shallow area that allows them to exercise their natural behavior. They seem to definitely love fast moving water, and many zoos have reported them really gravitating towards small falls, streams, etc. You would then need to change the depth level of their tank and transition to an area where they can swim, the ideal maximum allocated height here should not extend over 6 feet. Most zoos would create that level of depth away from the viewing glass, since you want the water mark level here to be perpendicular to the visitors line of sight. You have to account for your average visitors line of sight, and also children, you want them seeing the otters diving in, but also playing around in the bottom of the tank, often with enrichment items.
Lastly, but just as important, tanks with large viewing Plexiglas panel windows extending over 8 feet in height are extremely expensive, most zoos would not be able to afford them as the primary vendors in this sector would charge for anything extending beyond standard practice, prohibitive amounts. Even in Aquariums, you not often see large acrylic windows for species that do not necessarily required this levels of tank depth, since the exorbitant cost can really jam up your budget. To summarize, there are just a multitude of reasons why this is not realistic, practical or ideal. Now you can still prefer to play the game this way, and not concern yourself with realism, or the look of your exhibits, that is totally your choice, just as it is mine to complain about the lack of realism in the game, when one of this halfway features is rolled out.
Okay, I understand that we can not leave conservation and moral out of this game and we should not. But can we PLEASE be less PETA with this game and use realistic and real life zoo friendly requirements for this GAME (I put an emphasis here)? It's really getting too much and there needs to be consistence in which resources are used for giving the animals their requirements.
A lot of us mentioned the AZA as a standard and I would be totally fine with that. But if the animals have needs and requirements that none or only one real life zoo is actually meeting (hello, polar bears), there is something off, really. And PLEASE compare to ZOOS not to wildlife conservation.
I don't want to be forced to turn wellfare off , nor do I want to be forced to use mods to just to build a MODERN realistic zoo that indeed DOES care for their animals. Lets be honest, zoos, even the best ones, are not ideal and Planet Zoo will never change that fact. So why not take GOOD zoos as an example, instead of unreachable fairy tale zoos? And again, please use one or two reliable resources and stick to it.
If I want to do something for conservations, I donate to zoos to help them build better habitats, support a wildlife foundation or whatever. I don't buy DLCs to help animals, I buy them to play a game.
A lot of us mentioned the AZA as a standard and I would be totally fine with that. But if the animals have needs and requirements that none or only one real life zoo is actually meeting (hello, polar bears), there is something off, really. And PLEASE compare to ZOOS not to wildlife conservation.
I don't want to be forced to turn wellfare off , nor do I want to be forced to use mods to just to build a MODERN realistic zoo that indeed DOES care for their animals. Lets be honest, zoos, even the best ones, are not ideal and Planet Zoo will never change that fact. So why not take GOOD zoos as an example, instead of unreachable fairy tale zoos? And again, please use one or two reliable resources and stick to it.
If I want to do something for conservations, I donate to zoos to help them build better habitats, support a wildlife foundation or whatever. I don't buy DLCs to help animals, I buy them to play a game.
Caperite I actually attempted that yesterday, it was one of the first things I did. I tried placing a very small area the size of one of the long plaster pieces that would go down to 4 meters. The rest of the exhibit pool ranged from 1 meter to 2 meters. I did this very close to the viewing window to create sort of an optical illusion, since all you really saw was the front and back areas that had the 2 meter depth. Unfortunately it did not work, it seems the area I was willing to compromise with was far too small for the animation to activate. Anything else would just not have made any sense for me, since at that point I might as well should have built the 4 meters required depth. In any case, good recommendation, and for someone who is willing to compromise with their design, it could definitely work, as long as they keep in mind the 4 meters required will be substantial.
It seems that Rudi already found a crutch to evade this problem. According to his Diving tutorial, animals will deep swim even in water that is shallower than 4m if their deep dive requirement is met. So, the player could build a realistic looking habitat and hide the pool somewhere, like some players hid the polar bears space requirements with a multi story habitat.
I haven't tested this yet (I can play much before the weekend), but the video seems promising and could be a solution for some designs, until Frontier fixes this problem for good
I haven't tested this yet (I can play much before the weekend), but the video seems promising and could be a solution for some designs, until Frontier fixes this problem for good
If they fix it, though. Looking at the still too high polar bear requirements (even after reduced to 50%), I'm not holding my breath.
However, if Rudi is right this is not linked to technical problems. That's promising.
If I may say, this should not even be an issue. To say otherwise it is truly nonsensical, and I can not think of a possible explanation to either validate or back up the claim that 13+ feet depth provides Giant Otters and Caimans with any benefit. It is truly a non issue. If this is truly the case of Frontier having a recommendation for this, please do provide it, even if it is thru a private PM. I'm certain that neither Robyn Badger the Architect for the San Diego Zoological Society, who has been featured by Chante in streams before, or anyone else who has been involved with zoological exhibit design would have made such recommendation. Keep in mind anyone involved in the design and construction aspect of a zoo exhibit in real life does a tremendous amount of research before any concept is established, and listens to a tremendous amount of input from animal behaviorist specialists to specialized zookeepers that interact with the subject species on a daily basis.
In my case, Zoo Miami during the construction of Amazon and Beyond sent a whole team of us down to South America to study several keystone species for the exhibit. I spent a considerable amount of time researching the Giant Otters because that was a core habitat for the exhibit, and the results speak for themselves. The exhibit has not only won several awards, but the Giant Otters have actually reproduced, and seemed extremely happy in their exhibit.
As far as Planet Zoo having anything to do with Peta, that would be an oxymoron wouldn't it? Or the biggest irony one could conceive, since Peta is completely against zoos, and the game is about zoos. I think something would be very wrong with that.
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It was an exageration and a metaphor for unreasonable wellfare requirements, that goes way beyond reasonable animal welfare requirements like they are provided by resources modern zoos are actually using. Kind of surprised I have to explain this, to be honest.
No I understand the metaphor, but you are pointing something out that is not necessarily exaggerated in any way you. By all accounts your observation is valid, because some of the decision making process behind what is recommended for some of the animals can definitely be called into question. Now I will be honest with you since I have been playing in sandbox with animal welfare off all this time, I have not concern myself much with what Planet Zoo recommends as far as habitat space. However this is the first time that I have truly been crippled, because there is no feature here to turn this off, and it is just not realistic.
Wow, watched the complete tutorial, unfortunately that is still not a solution for me, it completely ruins any highly realistic design and the kind of habitat I'm looking to built for them would not work under these parameters. But the video was highly instructive, since it definitely gives confirmation that mechanical limitations had nothing to do with this. This was a complete non sensical design choice by Frontier, someone over there was definitely not paying attention or making some very questionable decisions based on personal preference without any supporting analysis and input from RL zoos.
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I can understand that people are disappointed about the space needed for diving when trying to build realistic enclosures. However, I prefer non-glitching animations and you might notice that still many zoos do not afford underwater viewing enclosures for these animals. In fact, most of the zoos I've visited do not have underwater viewing areas for them.
However, the whole aquatic pack feels like a missed chance for me and the emphasis on 'conservation' to justify certain decisions feels superficial, the more this argument is brought up. I mean, up to 500 (!) penguins in capitivity in one enclosure? Walkable enclosures for these (?), never seen any IRL. (Still, the front-runner is the walkable habitat for the very shy Okapis.)
Where are the (fake) nesting options/ boxes, which can be found in IRL zoos (I'm not talking of actual eggs, which already have been officially denied by Frontier)? Penguins and seals are not fed via underwater feeders or platters IRL but by hand to control health and to make sure that every animal gets enough (including regular medicine, which is hidden in the fish). Plastic duckies as enrichment item, which could be swallowed by the animals IRL?
Why do penguins have no molt animation?
I get that a virtual game does need to make compromises, but where is any of these typical behaviours, which make these animals iconic?
However, the whole aquatic pack feels like a missed chance for me and the emphasis on 'conservation' to justify certain decisions feels superficial, the more this argument is brought up. I mean, up to 500 (!) penguins in capitivity in one enclosure? Walkable enclosures for these (?), never seen any IRL. (Still, the front-runner is the walkable habitat for the very shy Okapis.)
Where are the (fake) nesting options/ boxes, which can be found in IRL zoos (I'm not talking of actual eggs, which already have been officially denied by Frontier)? Penguins and seals are not fed via underwater feeders or platters IRL but by hand to control health and to make sure that every animal gets enough (including regular medicine, which is hidden in the fish). Plastic duckies as enrichment item, which could be swallowed by the animals IRL?
Why do penguins have no molt animation?
I get that a virtual game does need to make compromises, but where is any of these typical behaviours, which make these animals iconic?
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At least the walkable enclosure can be ignored, if you do not want to use them because of realism. So I would not really call that a big problem. A weird decision in some cases (anteater walkabout???) perhaps, but not really something that forces you to use it.
As for the fake nests and eggs, Chante already stated that she will pass this feedback to the devs.
As for the fake nests and eggs, Chante already stated that she will pass this feedback to the devs.