Mixed feelings and thoughts about the Aquatic DLC.

[marcnesiumHH]

but not really something that forces you to use it.

Sure, but I was pointing out the 'vast' research and 'conservation' message.

As for the fake nests and eggs, Chante already stated that she will pass this feedback to the devs.

In a stream by Rudi two weeks ago, she said that the devs decided against actual eggs, mainly due to the short time span for those and to spare development costs.

 

[FoxyDee]

Sure, but I was pointing out the 'vast' research and 'conservation' message.


In a stream by Rudi two weeks ago, she said that the devs decided again actual eggs, mainly due to the short time span for those and to spare development costs.

Oh, I was talking about the fake nest/eggs. So there is a chance we might get at least the fake ones in the future.

 

[random goat]

@marcnesiumHH I totally agree. You're not wrong about Frontier's statement regarding eggs. However, FoxyDee is talking about fake ones, along with fake nests. That has indeed been addressed and suposedly the devs might consider this compromise idea.

EDIT: okay FoxyDee answered just seconds before me

 

[marcnesiumHH]

However, FoxyDee is talking about fake ones, along with fake nests.

that's why I referred to 'actual eggs' in my last post

 

[Nioell]

Okay, I understand that we can not leave conservation and moral out of this game and we should not. But can we PLEASE be less PETA with this game and use realistic and real life zoo friendly requirements for this GAME (I put an emphasis here)? It's really getting too much and there needs to be consistence in which resources are used for giving the animals their requirements.

A lot of us mentioned the AZA as a standard and I would be totally fine with that. But if the animals have needs and requirements that none or only one real life zoo is actually meeting (hello, polar bears), there is something off, really. And PLEASE compare to ZOOS not to wildlife conservation.

I don't want to be forced to turn wellfare off , nor do I want to be forced to use mods to just to build a MODERN realistic zoo that indeed DOES care for their animals. Lets be honest, zoos, even the best ones, are not ideal and Planet Zoo will never change that fact. So why not take GOOD zoos as an example, instead of unreachable fairy tale zoos? And again, please use one or two reliable resources and stick to it.

If I want to do something for conservations, I donate to zoos to help them build better habitats, support a wildlife foundation or whatever. I don't buy DLCs to help animals, I buy them to play a game.

Completely agree. The whole these "animals need so much space because conservation" argument is actually starting to get on my nerves. Like if you wanna push the message that animals can't/shouldn't actually be kept in normal zoos 'cause they need waaay more space than any realistic zoo can offer them, then maybe you shouldn't have created a ZOO game in the first place and went with a wildlife reserve simulator instead.

Not to mention the whole albino farming aspect of the game...thankfully I don't have to deal with that much anymore since I gave up on franchise a long time ago, but yeah, that's pretty much the furthest from conservation and animal welfare that you can get and yet, it's still in there. But God forbid you wanna build a realistic zoo, that we can't allow because conservation above everything and actually animals shouldn't be kept in captivity at all because as you can see no zoo would ever be able to meet their needs anyway.

Besides, since when is conservation = space requirements? As far as I know there's way more to it than that, but from what I see around here that's pretty much all there is to it. We want this species to be more challenging to keep 'cause conservation message -> tripple space requirements, leave everything else as is. Like that's not how it should work? At least not in my opinion. Maybe add a special diet or training programms for keepers that need to be completed before you can keep those animals, special enrichment items and feeding circles, maybe even lighting requirements etc. there's just so much more you can do than MORE SPACE and that's why this argument gets so old so fast.

 

[Cocolori]

On the walkthrough issue - I am assuming that it was so people could approximate something like the penguin parades at Edinburgh Zoo - https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/astonishing-story-how-edinburgh-zoos-16182527

 

[Firestar97]

I mean, up to 500 (!) penguins in capitivity in one enclosure?

It's the same as for Flamingos. I think if someone does it right there could be a really awesome big Enclosure with such a big Penguin Colony. They do also live in extremely big Groups in Real Life. I assume no Zoo really keeps that many Penguins. Maybe Frontier did it like that so they won't become already unhappy when there are 25 in the Enclosure but still enough Space.

Walkable enclosures for these (?), never seen any IRL.

At least Emperor Penguins (I assume it's very similar for King Penguins) are very curious and often walk up to People (at least that's how they behave in the Wild when they see Tourists)

(Still, the front-runner is the walkable habitat for the very shy Okapis.)

I agree that some Walk trough Choices are really bad and unrealistic. Really? Pronghorns? Once I've researched for only a few Minutes and already found out that this will either end in extremely stressed Animals, impaled Guests or both

Where are the (fake) nesting options/ boxes, which can be found in IRL zoos

Aren't they only for smaller Penguin Species that really breed in small Caves? Is the Breeding Behavior of King Penguins in Captivity different to what it is like in the Wild?

Penguins and seals are not fed via underwater feeders or platters IRL but by hand to control health and to make sure that every animal gets enough (including regular medicine, which is hidden in the fish)

I assume if they would implement realistic Penguin Feeding in the Game it would consume Way too much Time, so maybe at least the normal feeding is like that so the Zookeeper don't need a Eternity to feed every Penguin in the Enclosure. But this could be awesome for the Educator (do they feed them like this? I've only tested the Educator with the Wolf yet and there they just throw the Food on the Ground of the Enclosure )

Plastic duckies as enrichment item, which could be swallowed by the animals IRL?

At least compared to the female Grey Seal, these Rubber Ducks look very big, so I assume it's ok due to the Size (didn't look at it compared to the male yet). I've just looked at my cute Screenshot again and these Ducks are really huge, so you shouldn't need to worry about them. The real Danger are Guests. Some Zoos showcase which kind of Stuff they already needed to remove per Operation because stupid People thought it would be a good Idea to throw it in.

Why do penguins have no molt animation?

I think this would be awesome. But our Camels and Bisons also don't grow a thicker Coat which I assume is either due to no real Seasons for some Reason (please Frontier add Seasons. It isn't 30°C all the Time here and then it randomly starts snowing in August. It wouldn't even need to be implemented for everyone. A Option would be possible to choose if you want real Seasons or want to stay with the current Model) or maybe it's a bit hard to implement

Completely agree. The whole these "animals need so much space because conservation" argument is actually starting to get on my nerves. Like if you wanna push the message that animals can't/shouldn't actually be kept in normal zoos 'cause they need waaay more space than any realistic zoo can offer them, then maybe you shouldn't have created a ZOO game in the first place and went with a wildlife reserve simulator instead.

There is so much other Stuff that is required to keep Polar Bears, so I'm also mad that Frontier did it like this. Maybe we have at least a slight Chance that they will make it more realistic now that some Animals have a Depth Requirement. But hopefully no required Water Depth of 10m

 

[marcnesiumHH]

do they feed them like this

No, educators only throw food on the ground, regardless of the species. It does not work with water or them being close to water at all.

The real deal (,which I intentionally left out in my first post) in game would be a combined feeding/ medical training (incl. target training) for seals, which is the modern common practice nowadays in IRL zoos.

 

[LN]

Who says the duckies are made of plastic anyway?
Or is that just an assumption, because "usually they are".

It might as well be made of environment and animal friendly materials.

 

[Firestar97]

No, educators only throw food on the ground, regardless of the species. It does not work with water or them being close to water at all.

The real deal (,which I intentionally left out in my first post) in game would be a combined feeding/ medical training (incl. target training) for seals, which is the modern common practice nowadays in IRL zoos.

What exactly do you mean with close to Water? I want a Seal Talk too so that Guy won't sit for almost 1 Year there and doing nothing except maybe researching for the next Talk and I don't want to need to change the Enclosure Design completely

 

[random goat]

Who says the duckies are made of plastic anyway?
Or is that just an assumption, because "usually they are".

It might as well be made of environment and animal friendly materials.

I assume you're kidding xD

It's a rubber duck. I don't think ingesting rubber would be good for any animal, really.

I personally do not care too much about it, but I could see why some people may think it's contradictory with the animal welfare message. More natural enrichment items (not talking about this one in particular) are always a better choice and it's something that ha been suggested in several threads.

 

[Firestar97]

It's a rubber duck. I don't think ingesting rubber would be good for any animal, really.

They are really big. I think no Animal that uses them as Enrichment could ingest them. I can show a Screenshot but first I need to find a specific Cable in my Computer, so I'll need a few Minutes

 

[LN]

I assume you're kidding xD

It's a rubber duck. I don't think ingesting rubber would be good for any animal, really.

I personally do not care too much about it, but I could see why some people may think it's contradictory with the animal welfare message. More natural enrichment items (not talking about this one in particular) are always a better choice and it's something that ha been suggested in several threads.

Me neither. But if we really want to step into conservation messages and what else comes to mind, they should have never made a game or started a gaming company.
But yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit here.

 

[random goat]

They are really big. I think no Animal that uses them as Enrichment could ingest them. I can show a Screenshot but first I need to find a specific Cable in my Computer, so I'll need a few Minutes

No worries, I've seen them myself. They're big indeed. Ofc they can't be swallowed at once.

 

[Cocolori]

I'm not really going to treat this as a serious subject cos frankly it's just a rubber duck in a video game but for my own amusement here's some devil's advocate points:

I think it's odd to assume that animal welfare is increased more by naturalistic looking objects. It's a bit of anthropomorphic point of view - we know that it is more 'natural' looking so we like it more and tend to assume that is better for the animals but 90% of habitat design is for the benefit of the guests aesthetic preferences. Plenty of wild animals, especially neophilic species like otters, like brightly coloured objects, things that look and feel different to what they usually encounter. It's why I like that in Planet Zoo the animals get bored of their enrichment. We also tend to think of enrichment being based on specific objects that we place to entertain but anyone working with real animals knows that half the time they ignore the things given specifically to enrich them and instead come up with their own games. Usually using whatever is the most easily destroyed / delicate bit of their enclosure.

Obviously there's then the issue of animal safety but as others have pointed out there is no reason to think a rubber ducky is dangerous. Plastic can also be better because it's durable, harder to bite bits off, non-reactive when it does get swallowed so will probably just pass through the digestive system

Finally there is the issue of the resource cost of the object - is it environmentally sustainable. Plastic isn't great but it can be the most eco-friendly in some circumstances. Plastic lasts a long time which is bad if it is thrown away but might have a lower carbon footprint than something that they are regularly having to replace from wood or other resources.

On a serious note the environmental impacts of anything are really hard to weigh up and plastic can be the best green material sometimes. It's really hard when people want to be green because knowing what is the best is almost impossible even for the experts. By the time you have weighed up the lifetime energy and resource costs and then the tried to balance their impact on different ecosystem services it gets really thorny really fast. I know some people who do this work professionally and they struggle!

 

[Cile]

A giant otter, is about 3-5 feet in length, a King penguin is also about 3 feet tall. These are fairly large sized animals, they are not meant to swim and DIVE in 3 feet of water?
These are not cute cuddly otters, these are apex predators, they hunt mostly fish, but can also hunt caiman and small anacondas.
This is very deep, is this not like planet zoo? I think it is very similar. These are Giant otters swimming in a viewing gallery in a zoo.

This also looks deep to me?

On a side note, a lot of enclosures viewing areas in real life, don't show you the deepest parts, its like a little shallow area for viewing specifically and then theres deeper areas you cant always see as the viewer.

You could design habitats in game around that idea, just have a deeper part somewhere and make the more shallow area for viewing ?? How is that unrealistic? It's Planet Zoo, not Zoo simulator... xD

 

[NZFanatic]

It's Planet Zoo, not Zoo simulator... xD

Somehow you've missed the point of the whole game. Planet Zoo is a zoo simulator. Where possible it should always allow for realism - the devs said as much themselves.

Most of those images you posted look more like concept art than real-life photographs of zoos. The top one is, I believe, from Singapore's River Safari (Amazon Flooded Forest exhibit), which is a real outlier considering the amount of money Singapore is able to put into its zoological institutes. In other words, it isn't exactly representative of what is normal or to be expected. Singapore is literally a destination for zoo tourists (Zoo, Night Safari, River Safari, Jurong Bird Park, etc.) so they pour a lot of resources into keeping their facilities at high standards.

 

[random goat]

Yap, the last two are definetely concept art pictures.

No one here has argued that seals need less depth requirements. 4m for penguins is in the limit of what could be considered realistic but I guess it's acceptable.

Glad to know there is at least one exhibit in the world with roughly 4m depth for giant otters. It is a rare case for sure. No one wants to stop other players from creating that kind of exhibits with huge water pools. We're asking to be given the choice not to do it in order to recreate what the vast majority of otter exhibits look like in zoos worldwide.

It's Planet Zoo, not Zoo simulator... xD

This bit honestly made my day.

 

[FoxyDee]

I am not even sure why are some people so opposed to the idea of reducing the requirments (if it is possible of course). If you want to give your animal huuuge enclosure you can, even with the lowered requirments. Opposite however is not possible, so people that like to have realistic builds are stuck with it. Some people like me, might not even play sandbox, I play exclusively challenge mode, so turning welfare off is also not an option for everyone..

 

[Swjosdotschka]

Besides, since when is conservation = space requirements? As far as I know there's way more to it than that, but from what I see around here that's pretty much all there is to it. We want this species to be more challenging to keep 'cause conservation message -> tripple space requirements, leave everything else as is. Like that's not how it should work? At least not in my opinion. Maybe add a special diet or training programms for keepers that need to be completed before you can keep those animals, special enrichment items and feeding circles, maybe even lighting requirements etc. there's just so much more you can do than MORE SPACE and that's why this argument gets so old so fast.

You have so many good ideas there and indeed all of this would be a better way to bring the needs of zoo animals across than giving a polar bear a habitat that is as large as the bear travels in nature to find food that you don't find on every corner. Traveling wide distances is a necessity for most animals in the wild, not a simple drive.

I especially like your special training idea.

@Cile As @NZFanatic said, concept art isn't really a good resource. It is what it says: Art. To give you an idea about an enclosure. But it's almost never met 1:1, due to practical reasons, financial reasons, security reasons etc.
And yes, Planet Zoo is indeed a zoo Management simulation. And therefore it should be possible to manage a zoo with kind of real life proportions met by a good numbre of zoos.