Mixed feelings and thoughts about the Aquatic DLC.

[macronecu]

Just for reference I'm including a few pictures in this post, I do offer my apologies in advance to some of the members that have asked me in the past to keep my uploading of images to a minimum, since it makes it difficult for the threads to load. I'm a visual learner, and project my input a little more efficiently with the assistance of media, so please do bare with me this one time.

I was the lead architect for the Amazon & Beyond exhibit in Zoo Miami (formerly Miami Metrozoo) at the time of conception, the largest project of its kind in North American Zoological planning and design history. The exhibit at 27 acres (larger than many small zoos) was designed to hold well over a 100 different species in a multitude of habitats. We used over 40 different vendors for this project and the level of research and attention to detail was like nothing ever attempted before by other projects focusing on these regions of the world.

We were extremely fortunate that the sub tropical climate in Miami allowed for a faithful reproduction of many ecosystems found within tropical America. From the rare and seldom seen animal collection chosen to represent their native habitats to the over 700 plant species native to South and Central America that were selected for the project, everything was going to thrive at levels that had yet to be seen here in North America.

There were several cornerstone habitats within this exhibit, that were given a much higher priority from the very beginning, not only in the initial planning stages, construction and execution of the project but also during the extensive research that was undertaken. A small group of us traveled to South America and then Central America, with a variety of motives, from the acquisition of several rare species from local nature reserves to partnering with specialized local assets that would facility our research of each ecosystem and key species.

One of the species selected for extensive research was the Giant Otter. It would be too much of an explanation here to go into the details of what all of this research entailed, but I can attest that during decades of designing zoological exhibitions the world over, never had I participated in such detailed field work. This was definitely a first and incredible experience. I familiarized myself with every aspect of Giant Otters that was critical to the planning and design of their exhibits. Let me reiterate that, this was not limited to a visual surveying of their natural environments, it was extensive field research concerning every aspect of the lives of this magnificent animals.

The final result, their habitat within Amazon and Beyond, is a multilevel experience for visitors as well as the otters, there are a variety of pools interconnected with each other, several small falls and streams where the otters can play in. Of course in the lower pool there is ample room for them to dive, swim and explore. The deepest area of the largest pool is a little under 7 feet, and completely away from the visitors line of sight. This is a very small section, as the majority of the deep area within the same pool is 6 feet deep. The depth of the adjacent pool area to the viewing window is only 4 feet, and the Giant Otters love it as they spend considerable time there versus the deeper areas of the pool. They love to swim with their body above the water as much as they love to dive down to the bottom of the pool, but do not spend a lot of time swimming in the deeper areas of the pool.

View attachment 199228
Entrance Plaza area leading to the entire exhibition, all 27 acres of it.

View attachment 199236


There are currently a 122 species within the entire exhibit complex, including the Giant Otters.

View attachment 199208
four feet of water depth adjacent to the viewing window, allowing visitors of all ages to see the Giant Otters in all their glory.

View attachment 199209
The exhibit was designed with a multitude of hiding places for the otters to be away from the visitors. The deepest area of the largest pool is just shy of 7 feet, yet the Otters do not spend a considerable amount of time here, they love the streams and shallow areas within the pools.
View attachment 199214
There are three falls within the exhibit, and one of them was designed as a natural slide. They absolutely love these areas of the exhibit and will constantly explore them, diving in and out of them.
View attachment 199215
They way they bend their bodies when they swim in addition to not spending any significant amount of time upright in the water makes it very easy for them to maneuver in shallow areas.

View attachment 199222
There are three separate stream levels, all leading to the main exhibit pool. While the Giant Otters do spend significant time in both land and the main pool, the streams by far are their little slice of heaven.

View attachment 199225
The interesting part of this, and possibly most relevant informational piece in relation to the game is that the streams are considerably shallower than the main pool, they are mostly 3 feet in all areas, with the exception of the higher ground stream that does have a large variety of depth up to 4 feet deep.

Great post! Love those exhibits! Would love to visit Zoo Miami one day. I can tell a great deal of thinking has been put into the planning of these exhibits, not a medium level of thought like the guests say in the game

There are indeed deep sections of the Amazon, but a lot of giant otter habitat can be shallow streams, springs and marshes. They should honestly have no deep water requirement more than half a meter. From what I read here, this is more of a choice than a technical difficulty as people say they can deep swim in shallow water when there is deep areas. I hope Frontier revisits this decision and removes those constraints as animals can even now perfectly swim in shallower water.

As a student of climatology, I do want to make a small correction though. South Florida has a tropical climate. It's central and northern Florida that has a subtropical climate. Wanted to help clear that confusion.

 

[Danny_zoo]

Great post! Love those exhibits! Would love to visit Zoo Miami one day. I can tell a great deal of thinking has been put into the planning of these exhibits, not a medium level of thought like the guests say in the game

There are indeed deep sections of the Amazon, but a lot of giant otter habitat can be shallow streams, springs and marshes. They should honestly have no deep water requirement more than half a meter. From what I read here, this is more of a choice than a technical difficulty as people say they can deep swim in shallow water when there is deep areas. I hope Frontier revisits this decision and removes those constraints as animals can even now perfectly swim in shallower water.

As a student of climatology, I do want to make a small correction though. South Florida has a tropical climate. It's central and northern Florida that has a subtropical climate. Wanted to help clear that confusion.

Thank you for your complements of the exhibit, and it is great to see you in this forum. You should definitely plan a trip, depending on where you are heading from, Miami can provide great appeal. There are a number of animal parks and zoos in the State of Florida worth visiting. Zoo Miami has had its ups and downs, mostly in relation to the brutal hurricanes that have impacted it thru the decades. However ever since the master plan for the zoo was put in place, great progress has been made in cementing its place as one of the top zoological institutions in the country. There is also the West Palm Beach Zoo, just a couple of hours north of Miami, and even though it is a small size zoo, it is truly appealing, especially for those coming from temperate climates where zoos with lush tropical vegetation are not common. In central Florida you have ZooTampa, and that is another fairly enjoyable zoo, even though there are no over the top exhibits, but the overall presentation is solid.

Regardless of what anyone in the zoo world ever says and most of it comes from not such a good place, DAK is the world's first mega zoo. Sure it is a theme park, and being Disney there are a number of areas and attractions within the park that have nothing to do with zoos. However, the areas that are purely devoted to zoological exhibitions are beyond amazing. Not only are they truly inspiring from a thematic architectural point of view, but the landscape design is superb. Just in another level and worth visiting at least once in a lifetime.

As far as South Florida being tropical or not. The tropics is the area between the Tropic of Cancer, 23.6 degrees North Latitude, and 23.5 degrees South Latitude. Key West, approximately just 25 minutes from where I'm writing this reply from, has a latitude of 24.56 degrees north, placing all of Florida north of the tropic zone. Southern Florida is 100 percent subtropical. Northern Florida around the Jacksonville area is considered by some sub tropical, yet in reality is very mild, and freezing can and does occur in the winter. Therefore, geographically, south Florida isn’t tropical since it is outside of the global tropics, however its climate is certainly tropical. As far as foliage most of the species from tropical climates that we have planted in South Florida have successfully adapted with a few variations in size and longevity. There are however exceptions, as every now and then a winter can be fatal for a few of them.

My home country of Cuba as an example is only 90 miles away from Key West Florida and has sub tropical climate as well. After the opening of Amazon and Beyond, we had some amazing raining seasons and all of the foliage we planted, all 21 573 plant specimens representing over 700 species were thriving. Then came one unexpected day in the 2010 South Florida winter when the temperatures dropped at night beyond what any of us could have ever imagined for a sub tropical climate. We thought a great portion of the exotic plant collection acquired for Amazon & Beyond would be lost. Fortunately we came up with the idea of pouring mild hot water 2 inches from every plant directly into the soil, we repeated this process many times during the night, and the result was that most of the collection survived. Our adult green anaconda did however become terminally ill during this brutal winter and did not make it, I believe that was the night that did it.

We are however very fortunate here in South Florida to be the only place in the U.S where we can truly see such a tropical collection flourish and hopefully for many years to come. Hurricanes in the other hand have done tremendous damage and continue to do so.

 

[Danny_zoo]

Ugh, I do not play sandbox, would still want it lowered, but if it would be possible, I think it would be only fair to lower it for all modes.

You are right FoxyDee, everyone should benefit from it, all modes should be updated, but will they?

 

[Danny_zoo]

Somehow you've missed the point of the whole game. Planet Zoo is a zoo simulator. Where possible it should always allow for realism - the devs said as much themselves.

Most of those images you posted look more like concept art than real-life photographs of zoos. The top one is, I believe, from Singapore's River Safari (Amazon Flooded Forest exhibit), which is a real outlier considering the amount of money Singapore is able to put into its zoological institutes. In other words, it isn't exactly representative of what is normal or to be expected. Singapore is literally a destination for zoo tourists (Zoo, Night Safari, River Safari, Jurong Bird Park, etc.) so they pour a lot of resources into keeping their facilities at high standards.

I somehow just stumbled on this post again, and you are definitely correct Singapore is in a whole different level in many things. However it is not just a matter of available budget, it is also their constant pursuing of shock and awe when it comes to their exhibits, and this not always translates into favorable or optimal conditions for the animals species being displayed. I say this because if a company like Disney who has a stronger financial portfolio within DAK was to develop a Giant Otter exhibit, I can almost guaranteed that it would look nothing like Singapore's and would place no emphasis on a pool where the otters would dive to that same depth. You would probably see a lot more emphasis in the streams, multi level experience for the otters, enrichment opportunities within the exhibit, land area devoted to the exhibit, etc, all things currently missing from that exhibit in favor of a very deep pool.

 

[macronecu]

Thank you for your complements of the exhibit, and it is great to see you in this forum. You should definitely plan a trip, depending on where you are heading from, Miami can provide great appeal. There are a number of animal parks and zoos in the State of Florida worth visiting. Zoo Miami has had its ups and downs, mostly in relation to the brutal hurricanes that have impacted it thru the decades. However ever since the master plan for the zoo was put in place, great progress has been made in cementing its place as one of the top zoological institutions in the country. There is also the West Palm Beach Zoo, just a couple of hours north of Miami, and even though it is a small size zoo, it is truly appealing, especially for those coming from temperate climates where zoos with lush tropical vegetation are not common. In central Florida you have ZooTampa, and that is another fairly enjoyable zoo, even though there are no over the top exhibits, but the overall presentation is solid.

Regardless of what anyone in the zoo world ever says and most of it comes from not such a good place, DAK is the world's first mega zoo. Sure it is a theme park, and being Disney there are a number of areas and attractions within the park that have nothing to do with zoos. However, the areas that are purely devoted to zoological exhibitions are beyond amazing. Not only are they truly inspiring from a thematic architectural point of view, but the landscape design is superb. Just in another level and worth visiting at least once in a lifetime.

As far as South Florida being tropical or not. The tropics is the area between the Tropic of Cancer, 23.6 degrees North Latitude, and 23.5 degrees South Latitude. Key West, approximately just 25 minutes from where I'm writing this reply from, has a latitude of 24.56 degrees north, placing all of Florida north of the tropic zone. Southern Florida is 100 percent subtropical. Northern Florida around the Jacksonville area is considered by some sub tropical, yet in reality is very mild, and freezing can and does occur in the winter. Therefore, geographically, south Florida isn’t tropical since it is outside of the global tropics, however its climate is certainly tropical. As far as foliage most of the species from tropical climates that we have planted in South Florida have successfully adapted with a few variations in size and longevity. There are however exceptions, as every now and then a winter can be fatal for a few of them.

My home country of Cuba as an example is only 90 miles away from Key West Florida and has sub tropical climate as well. After the opening of Amazon and Beyond, we had some amazing raining seasons and all of the foliage we planted, all 21 573 plant specimens representing over 700 species were thriving. Then came one unexpected day in the 2010 South Florida winter when the temperatures dropped at night beyond what any of us could have ever imagined for a sub tropical climate. We thought a great portion of the exotic plant collection acquired for Amazon & Beyond would be lost. Fortunately we came up with the idea of pouring mild hot water 2 inches from every plant directly into the soil, we repeated this process many times during the night, and the result was that most of the collection survived. Our adult green anaconda did however become terminally ill during this brutal winter and did not make it, I believe that was the night that did it.

We are however very fortunate here in South Florida to be the only place in the U.S where we can truly see such a tropical collection flourish and hopefully for many years to come. Hurricanes in the other hand have done tremendous damage and continue to do so.

I do understand what you mean. In terms of the straight cartographic lines that define the broad zones of the tropics, subtropics, temperate and frigid zones, it is outside of the tropics since the Tropic of Cancer passes between the Florida keys and Cuba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropics#/media/File:World_map_indicating_tropics_and_subtropics.png). This is why I purposefully replied to the climate phrasing in your post. In terms of climate, biome and biogeographic realm definitions, which are better representative of regional differences than a straight line across the globe, as well as the impact of temperatures on flora and fauna, South Florida is classified as tropical. This is thanks to the overwhelming effect the Gulf Stream has, making South Florida and the Bahamas the northernmost tropical region in the world, despite the cold fronts. Being part of a larger continental landmass, Florida is indeed vulnerable to cold fronts, but even the cold fronts fail to bring averages down enough to diswarrant the classification. This is simply a variation within the climate itself. More equatorial places are less susceptible to cold fronts. The transition to a subtropical climate occurs up north around Lake Okeechobee.

In terms of climate: Under both major climate classification methods (Köppen and Trewartha), South Florida is classified as tropical monsoon, tropical rainforest and tropical savanna climates, based on the precipitation of the locality.

Maps:

Tropical climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Trewartha climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Definitions:

Tropical climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In terms of biome: Classified as tropical humid broadleaf forest where permanent rich soil can develop (rocklands) and tropical flooded savanna (Everglades). This is due to flora being more similar to the rest of the Neotropics than the rest of Florida.

Sources:

South Florida rocklands | DOPA Explorer

dopa-explorer.jrc.ec.europa.eu

South Florida rocklands | Ecoregions | WWF

World Wildlife Fund - The leading organization in wildlife conservation and endangered species.

www.worldwildlife.org

Excerpts: 1) "The associated hardwood hammocks contains a rare intrusion of tropical hardwoods more typical of the Bahamas and Greater Antilles than the adjacent southeastern conifer forests. We chose to put this ecoregion in the Tropical Moist Forest MHT rather than in the Subtropical and Tropical Coniferous Forest MHT, in deference to the extraordinary richness of its tropical hardwood flora." 2) "The South Florida Rocklands support the only true tropical forest on the U.S. mainland. Tropical epiphytic orchids, bromeliads, and ferns festoon the trees of the hardwood hammocks and are restricted to southern Florida."

In terms of biogeographic realms: South Florida is within the Neotropical realm.

Map:

Ecoregions 2017 ©

Need to click the realms button for it to be activated on the map. For instance note that the West Gulf subtropical grasslands are outside this zone, despite being subtropical.

Definition and second map:

Neotropical realm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In summary I was simply trying to differentiate between the terms tropics and tropical by pointing out to undisputed facts that aren't affected by our subjective opinions. I hope this explanation clarifies the confusion. I think it is best to contunie talking about it in direct messages if you like, in order not to sway the thread into offtopic. Either way, I love the design of the exhibits, both from an artistic and technical point of views.

Note: Apologies if some of the language above is too technical for some, as I took parts from my textbooks and class notes.

 

[Villa11]

I understand that Frontier wants to make a statement about animal welfare in zoos, but instead of limiting player creativity by giving animals unrealistic requirements, maybe just use your in game protesters to make the statement? Like protesters would come if you have polar bears, but the amount and frequency could be decreased by researching the animals more, giving them more space than required and educating your guest about them. People do protest in real life at zoos, so it would be realistic as well.

I agree that focusing on just space requirements is the wrong message as most animals need to be able to make choices and be able to choose where in the habitat they want to hang out, this is more nuanced than just giving them a lot of room, it requires variation within the habitat (different heights, different types of soil, places to hide,... etc..) It is probably to late to implement a system that takes all of this in consideration for this game, but if Frontier ever makes PZ2 I hope those things will get implemented.

 

[Danny_zoo]

I do understand what you mean. In terms of the straight cartographic lines that define the broad zones of the tropics, subtropics, temperate and frigid zones, it is outside of the tropics since the Tropic of Cancer passes between the Florida keys and Cuba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropics#/media/File:World_map_indicating_tropics_and_subtropics.png). This is why I purposefully replied to the climate phrasing in your post. In terms of climate, biome and biogeographic realm definitions, which are better representative of regional differences than a straight line across the globe, as well as the impact of temperatures on flora and fauna, South Florida is classified as tropical. This is thanks to the overwhelming effect the Gulf Stream has, making South Florida and the Bahamas the northernmost tropical region in the world, despite the cold fronts. Being part of a larger continental landmass, Florida is indeed vulnerable to cold fronts, but even the cold fronts fail to bring averages down enough to diswarrant the classification. This is simply a variation within the climate itself. More equatorial places are less susceptible to cold fronts. The transition to a subtropical climate occurs up north around Lake Okeechobee.

In terms of climate: Under both major climate classification methods (Köppen and Trewartha), South Florida is classified as tropical monsoon, tropical rainforest and tropical savanna climates, based on the precipitation of the locality.

Maps:

Tropical climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Trewartha climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Definitions:

Tropical climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In terms of biome: Classified as tropical humid broadleaf forest where permanent rich soil can develop (rocklands) and tropical flooded savanna (Everglades). This is due to flora being more similar to the rest of the Neotropics than the rest of Florida.

Sources:

South Florida rocklands | DOPA Explorer

dopa-explorer.jrc.ec.europa.eu

South Florida rocklands | Ecoregions | WWF

World Wildlife Fund - The leading organization in wildlife conservation and endangered species.

www.worldwildlife.org

Excerpts: 1) "The associated hardwood hammocks contains a rare intrusion of tropical hardwoods more typical of the Bahamas and Greater Antilles than the adjacent southeastern conifer forests. We chose to put this ecoregion in the Tropical Moist Forest MHT rather than in the Subtropical and Tropical Coniferous Forest MHT, in deference to the extraordinary richness of its tropical hardwood flora." 2) "The South Florida Rocklands support the only true tropical forest on the U.S. mainland. Tropical epiphytic orchids, bromeliads, and ferns festoon the trees of the hardwood hammocks and are restricted to southern Florida."

In terms of biogeographic realms: South Florida is within the Neotropical realm.

Map:

Ecoregions 2017 ©

Need to click the realms button for it to be activated on the map. For instance note that the West Gulf subtropical grasslands are outside this zone, despite being subtropical.

Definition and second map:

Neotropical realm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In summary I was simply trying to differentiate between the terms tropics and tropical by pointing out to undisputed facts that aren't affected by our subjective opinions. I hope this explanation clarifies the confusion. I think it is best to contunie talking about it in direct messages if you like, in order not to sway the thread into offtopic. Either way, I love the design of the exhibits, both from an artistic and technical point of views.

Note: Apologies if some of the language above is too technical for some, as I took parts from my textbooks and class notes.

It is perfect, and I have no disagreement with any of it, we are on the same page.

 

[TFG21]

I agree that focusing on just space requirements is the wrong message as most animals need to be able to make choices and be able to choose where in the habitat they want to hang out, this is more nuanced than just giving them a lot of room, it requires variation within the habitat (different heights, different types of soil, places to hide,... etc..) It is probably to late to implement a system that takes all of this in consideration for this game, but if Frontier ever makes PZ2 I hope those things will get implemented.

I mean, this is kind of how the game already is. The water depth requirement falls in the realm of "height variation", most animals require shelter as a welfare requirement, privacy/lines of sight also affects animal stress, the terrain painting also affects welfare, there are foliage requirements, enrichment requirements.

As to saying that they focus on the space requirement, this is really the only one contested by players (though foliage coverage seems to pop up as well). You don't see people complain about enrichment or terrain requirements, so Frontier has never had to explicitly state why they made these decisions.

 

[NZFanatic]

So Frontier has never had to explicitly state why they made these decisions.

That's not true - Frontier made several statements when the polar bear was released about how the absurd space requirement was due to "animal welfare" (despite no zoo in the world meeting those standards). They were very explicit about it and only halved it because of community pressure, and even then it's still ridiculous.

 

[Ursidae]

Our adult green anaconda did however become terminally ill during this brutal winter and did not make it, I believe that was the night that did it.

That one is probably on the zoo to be honest, they shouldn't have exposed it to those temperatures for extended periods of time. In the wild they can always retreat to deeper bodies of water to avoid big fluctuations, in captivity they can't. Their range extends into the subtropics in South America, like Southern Brazil and Paraguay, where bigger temperature fluctuations can occur, which they can easily survive by remaining underwater until the weather warms up again. The zoo should have taken the necessary preventative measures based on weather forecast.

 

[Ursidae]

Just for reference I'm including a few pictures in this post, I do offer my apologies in advance to some of the members that have asked me in the past to keep my uploading of images to a minimum, since it makes it difficult for the threads to load. I'm a visual learner, and project my input a little more efficiently with the assistance of media, so please do bare with me this one time.

I was the lead architect for the Amazon & Beyond exhibit in Zoo Miami (formerly Miami Metrozoo) at the time of conception, the largest project of its kind in North American Zoological planning and design history. The exhibit at 27 acres (larger than many small zoos) was designed to hold well over a 100 different species in a multitude of habitats. We used over 40 different vendors for this project and the level of research and attention to detail was like nothing ever attempted before by other projects focusing on these regions of the world.

We were extremely fortunate that the sub tropical climate in Miami allowed for a faithful reproduction of many ecosystems found within tropical America. From the rare and seldom seen animal collection chosen to represent their native habitats to the over 700 plant species native to South and Central America that were selected for the project, everything was going to thrive at levels that had yet to be seen here in North America.

There were several cornerstone habitats within this exhibit, that were given a much higher priority from the very beginning, not only in the initial planning stages, construction and execution of the project but also during the extensive research that was undertaken. A small group of us traveled to South America and then Central America, with a variety of motives, from the acquisition of several rare species from local nature reserves to partnering with specialized local assets that would facility our research of each ecosystem and key species.

One of the species selected for extensive research was the Giant Otter. It would be too much of an explanation here to go into the details of what all of this research entailed, but I can attest that during decades of designing zoological exhibitions the world over, never had I participated in such detailed field work. This was definitely a first and incredible experience. I familiarized myself with every aspect of Giant Otters that was critical to the planning and design of their exhibits. Let me reiterate that, this was not limited to a visual surveying of their natural environments, it was extensive field research concerning every aspect of the lives of this magnificent animals.

The final result, their habitat within Amazon and Beyond, is a multilevel experience for visitors as well as the otters, there are a variety of pools interconnected with each other, several small falls and streams where the otters can play in. Of course in the lower pool there is ample room for them to dive, swim and explore. The deepest area of the largest pool is a little under 7 feet, and completely away from the visitors line of sight. This is a very small section, as the majority of the deep area within the same pool is 6 feet deep. The depth of the adjacent pool area to the viewing window is only 4 feet, and the Giant Otters love it as they spend considerable time there versus the deeper areas of the pool. They love to swim with their body above the water as much as they love to dive down to the bottom of the pool, but do not spend a lot of time swimming in the deeper areas of the pool.

View attachment 199228
Entrance Plaza area leading to the entire exhibition, all 27 acres of it.

View attachment 199236


There are currently a 122 species within the entire exhibit complex, including the Giant Otters.

View attachment 199208
four feet of water depth adjacent to the viewing window, allowing visitors of all ages to see the Giant Otters in all their glory.

View attachment 199209
The exhibit was designed with a multitude of hiding places for the otters to be away from the visitors. The deepest area of the largest pool is just shy of 7 feet, yet the Otters do not spend a considerable amount of time here, they love the streams and shallow areas within the pools.
View attachment 199214
There are three falls within the exhibit, and one of them was designed as a natural slide. They absolutely love these areas of the exhibit and will constantly explore them, diving in and out of them.
View attachment 199215
They way they bend their bodies when they swim in addition to not spending any significant amount of time upright in the water makes it very easy for them to maneuver in shallow areas.

View attachment 199222
There are three separate stream levels, all leading to the main exhibit pool. While the Giant Otters do spend significant time in both land and the main pool, the streams by far are their little slice of heaven.

View attachment 199225
The interesting part of this, and possibly most relevant informational piece in relation to the game is that the streams are considerably shallower than the main pool, they are mostly 3 feet in all areas, with the exception of the higher ground stream that does have a large variety of depth up to 4 feet deep.

Zoo Miami is on my bucket list and these photos definitely move it up on that list. Such a creative design and an enriching habitat.

 

[Villa11]

I mean, this is kind of how the game already is. The water depth requirement falls in the realm of "height variation", most animals require shelter as a welfare requirement, privacy/lines of sight also affects animal stress, the terrain painting also affects welfare, there are foliage requirements, enrichment requirements.

As to saying that they focus on the space requirement, this is really the only one contested by players (though foliage coverage seems to pop up as well). You don't see people complain about enrichment or terrain requirements, so Frontier has never had to explicitly state why they made these decisions.

That's not true - Frontier made several statements when the polar bear was released about how the absurd space requirement was due to "animal welfare" (despite no zoo in the world meeting those standards). They were very explicit about it and only halved it because of community pressure, and even then it's still ridiculous.

At the end of the day it is still a zoo game. I understand and can support that Frontier wants to make a statement about animal welfare, but it shouldn't come at the expanse of making animal requirements unrealistic. You can always make habitats larger than required and give them deeper water if you want to.
The giant otters can and will swim in water that isn't 4m deep in this game, so why restrict it unnecessarily?

What I meant with height variation is not just having water that is a certain depth, but is having water that has a variety of depths, like Danny_Zoo has said he did in his design for the Miami Zoo; I don't know how good the current engine can track this. The applies to climbing structures and terrain height variation as well.

 

[TFG21]

That's not true - Frontier made several statements when the polar bear was released about how the absurd space requirement was due to "animal welfare" (despite no zoo in the world meeting those standards). They were very explicit about it and only halved it because of community pressure, and even then it's still ridiculous.

I meant no statement surrounding other welfare requirements. The post I quoted stated that space requirements were a focus from Frontier, but the space requirement is the only one they have had to discuss publically because of player criticism. This makes it seem that Frontier is more focused on space than other welfare requirements, but it is just that space requirements that get talked about most in the community.

 

[Casperite]

Gameplay over realism will win every time in any game. Most of what I see people wanting for realism here just wouldn't be very possible given the dev's statements on time and resource management in development.

Also, it is a game. Not sure why people get so worked up it isn't exactly like their real world examples. If you want realism, start by getting rid of giant pandas (they are controlled by China and not every zoo can get them), not allow building of large and extravagant habitats (most habitats I've seen on youtube are completely unrealistic), and keepers shouldn't just walk into lion, tiger and bear habitats while the animal is out and conscious. All of things in game are as realistic as dragons and dinosaurs being in our zoo, so just accept it for what it is, a game. If they went super realistic it wouldnt really be enjoyable for most. Probably not even possible to make an ultra realistic zoo game.

 

[Casperite]

At the end of the day it is still a zoo game. I understand and can support that Frontier wants to make a statement about animal welfare, but it shouldn't come at the expanse of making animal requirements unrealistic. You can always make habitats larger than required and give them deeper water if you want to.
The giant otters can and will swim in water that isn't 4m deep in this game, so why restrict it unnecessarily?

What I meant with height variation is not just having water that is a certain depth, but is having water that has a variety of depths, like Danny_Zoo has said he did in his design for the Miami Zoo; I don't know how good the current engine can track this. The applies to climbing structures and terrain height variation as well.

You do not have to make deep water for these animals, the depth just limits the diving animations (gameplay reasons). They can still be happy with shallow water, you just won't see them dive cause it isn't possible the way the game is developed. The restriction in game is a technical one but does not affect happiness of the animal.

 

[Swjosdotschka]

You do not have to make deep water for these animals, the depth just limits the diving animations (gameplay reasons). They can still be happy with shallow water, you just won't see them dive cause it isn't possible the way the game is developed. The restriction in game is a technical one but does not affect happiness of the animal.

That's not really correct. Rudi found out that they can indeed dive in a little more shallow water, as long as there is enough "deep dive" water elsewhere in the habitat. So it doesn't seem to be fully "game play reasons" but questionable "conservation message reason".

 

[ralphthestick]

Also, Aquatic Pack animals, can't be happy without "deep dive" water. Not only is it a welfare requirement in and of itself, but also their only food enrichment (at least for some of them, I haven't checked them all) is the underwater fish feeder, which requires even deeper water than 4 meters (I believe 5.5 is the figure?)

 

[FoxyDee]

I admit, it would be nice if the new animals had different food enrichment options, not just one.

 

[NZFanatic]

Gameplay over realism will win every time in any game. Most of what I see people wanting for realism here just wouldn't be very possible given the dev's statements on time and resource management in development.

Also, it is a game. Not sure why people get so worked up it isn't exactly like their real world examples. If you want realism, start by getting rid of giant pandas (they are controlled by China and not every zoo can get them), not allow building of large and extravagant habitats (most habitats I've seen on youtube are completely unrealistic), and keepers shouldn't just walk into lion, tiger and bear habitats while the animal is out and conscious. All of things in game are as realistic as dragons and dinosaurs being in our zoo, so just accept it for what it is, a game. If they went super realistic it wouldnt really be enjoyable for most. Probably not even possible to make an ultra realistic zoo game.

Nobody, literally nobody, expects the game to be perfectly true to life, but the game itself is marketed as a realistic zoo simulator. It should strive to be realistic as possible within reason. The people, like me, who are always asking for the ability to make things more realistic are usually the ones who know a lot about zoos - the YouTubers don't, and aren't a good measure of what the game should be like.

"It's just a game" has never, not once, been a good argument for anything discussed in this forum. It's never been "just a game", and that isn't just me waxing poetic about it; that's how it's marketed. Simulation games are supposed to be as realistic as possible - that is their whole appeal.

You do not have to make deep water for these animals, the depth just limits the diving animations (gameplay reasons). They can still be happy with shallow water, you just won't see them dive cause it isn't possible the way the game is developed. The restriction in game is a technical one but does not affect happiness of the animal.

In this very thread Chante all but confirmed that it was to do with animal welfare. The "technical limitations" mentioned appear to only be some minor clipping, as Rudi discovered, and that only happened in extremely shallow water, not the 2m limit most of us want it reduced to.

 

[random goat]

You do not have to make deep water for these animals, the depth just limits the diving animations (gameplay reasons). They can still be happy with shallow water, you just won't see them dive cause it isn't possible the way the game is developed. The restriction in game is a technical one but does not affect happiness of the animal.

All you had to do is simply read this thread. Literally. But oh well it's better not to get minimally informed and argue there is nothing to complain about or request.

I really don't understand people who most likely don't care about a topic (this or a different one) and don't want to see other people requesting an improvement for the game that pretty much won't affect their gameplay.

I don't go and put down threads that complain about franchise, animal market, etc. if I don't care/mind if something is changed in that regard.
Would reducing the water depth requirement change the gameplay (or make it worse) for players who want to build huge water tanks? No. End of the story.