Mixed feelings and thoughts about the Aquatic DLC.

[NZFanatic]

I am not even sure why are some people so opposed to the idea of reducing the requirments (if it is possible of course). If you want to give your animal huuuge enclosure you can, even with the lowered requirments. Opposite however is not possible, so people that like to have realistic builds are stuck with it. Some people like me, might not even play sandbox, I play exclusively challenge mode, so turning welfare off is also not an option for everyone..

A lot of it boils down to the idea of silencing criticism. People feel that we shouldn't have any criticism of this pack because it fulfills so many of our wishes (deep diving, aquatic animals, and so on), so they'll jump to the defence of whatever is being criticised even if there's no real reason to. Going all the way back to the early days of this forum, I often got the feeling that a lot of people were scared that if Frontier was criticised too harshly then they'd throw their toys out of the cot and stop making the game. That is of course utter nonsense, but it seems like the belief has somewhat persisted.

The main point of this conversation is, of course, exactly as you laid it out - nobody is trying to take anything away from other players, we're actually trying to expand the possibilities. That can only be a good thing.

 

[Firestar97]

For everyone who is worried about the Rubber Duck

Can't imagine them swallowing that Bird

 

[Danny_zoo]

A giant otter, is about 3-5 feet in length, a King penguin is also about 3 feet tall. These are fairly large sized animals, they are not meant to swim and DIVE in 3 feet of water?
These are not cute cuddly otters, these are apex predators, they hunt mostly fish, but can also hunt caiman and small anacondas.
This is very deep, is this not like planet zoo? I think it is very similar. These are Giant otters swimming in a viewing gallery in a zoo.

This also looks deep to me?

On a side note, a lot of enclosures viewing areas in real life, don't show you the deepest parts, its like a little shallow area for viewing specifically and then theres deeper areas you cant always see as the viewer.

You could design habitats in game around that idea, just have a deeper part somewhere and make the more shallow area for viewing ?? How is that unrealistic? It's Planet Zoo, not Zoo simulator... xD

Ok I'm going to reply to a few things here, and others I will leave alone for the sake of not starting another pointless argument. First off, the first picture you provided does not look like an exhibit containing Giant Otters, looks like sea otters to me. Even the exhibit is not representative of their habitat. Second to clarify, I suggested cutting their depth requirement to two meters, that is over 6 feet. After conducting extensive studies of Giant Otters in their native habitat, and consulting a number of experts within the field, it was agreed that this is an optimal pool depth for them. Keep in mind that they spent most of the time in riverbanks and close to land, taking partial shelter under mangrove etc. This is even the case with Giant Otters found in Areas where the river has considerable depth, it is also of importance to note that the species is a key resident of the Pantanals, and this ecosystem is mostly very shallow, I walked many areas of it assisted only by a stick, and the water did not reach above my waist in a single occasion.

As far as your reference to exhibit pools in zoos having varying degrees of elevation and depth, especially away from the visitors viewing areas, that is correct. I mentioned that in all of my previous posts, so not sure what the argument here is. That is why I explained that the visitors line of sight has to always be taken into consideration when scaling the depth of the pool's section closest to the viewing area. I'm referring to acrylic viewing panels, nothing else. You want to see them diving, and be able to see the bottom of the pool, this could mean 4 to 5 feet of water. There will be deeper sections in the pool (never 13 feet), and shallow ones as well, since Giant Otters do enjoy playing around in streams, and shallow water areas.

 

[Cool Cats and Kittens]

I think a lot of people don't even realize how deep 4 meter / 13 feet actually is. The picture with the underwater tunnel posted earlier is the sea lion enclosure from the St. Louis Zoo. It's "only" 3,3 m or 11 feet deep

 

[Casperite]

Caperite I actually attempted that yesterday, it was one of the first things I did. I tried placing a very small area the size of one of the long plaster pieces that would go down to 4 meters. The rest of the exhibit pool ranged from 1 meter to 2 meters. I did this very close to the viewing window to create sort of an optical illusion, since all you really saw was the front and back areas that had the 2 meter depth. Unfortunately it did not work, it seems the area I was willing to compromise with was far too small for the animation to activate. Anything else would just not have made any sense for me, since at that point I might as well should have built the 4 meters required depth. In any case, good recommendation, and for someone who is willing to compromise with their design, it could definitely work, as long as they keep in mind the 4 meters required will be substantial.

Is there even any room for diving in 1m to 2m of water (barring the technicalities of it)? I like seeing them really swim around, seems like 1 meter wouldn't allow that. Watch Rudi's video on underwater mechanics if you haven't. It is really detailed and might help provide you with what you are hoping to achieve.

 

[Firestar97]

Is there even any room for diving in 1m to 2m of water (barring the technicalities of it)?

At least my Seals do sometimes dive even though the Water sadly needs to be a few Centimeters deeper than it currently is. But the Animals won't dive as much as if the Water is 4m deep so I assume this Requirement isn't for every Diving Animation. But I can't say anything about the other Species because I've only used the Seal and the Terrapin so far

 

[Danny_zoo]

Just for reference I'm including a few pictures in this post, I do offer my apologies in advance to some of the members that have asked me in the past to keep my uploading of images to a minimum, since it makes it difficult for the threads to load. I'm a visual learner, and project my input a little more efficiently with the assistance of media, so please do bare with me this one time.

I was the lead architect for the Amazon & Beyond exhibit in Zoo Miami (formerly Miami Metrozoo) at the time of conception, the largest project of its kind in North American Zoological planning and design history. The exhibit at 27 acres (larger than many small zoos) was designed to hold well over a 100 different species in a multitude of habitats. We used over 40 different vendors for this project and the level of research and attention to detail was like nothing ever attempted before by other projects focusing on these regions of the world.

We were extremely fortunate that the sub tropical climate in Miami allowed for a faithful reproduction of many ecosystems found within tropical America. From the rare and seldom seen animal collection chosen to represent their native habitats to the over 700 plant species native to South and Central America that were selected for the project, everything was going to thrive at levels that had yet to be seen here in North America.

There were several cornerstone habitats within this exhibit, that were given a much higher priority from the very beginning, not only in the initial planning stages, construction and execution of the project but also during the extensive research that was undertaken. A small group of us traveled to South America and then Central America, with a variety of motives, from the acquisition of several rare species from local nature reserves to partnering with specialized local assets that would facility our research of each ecosystem and key species.

One of the species selected for extensive research was the Giant Otter. It would be too much of an explanation here to go into the details of what all of this research entailed, but I can attest that during decades of designing zoological exhibitions the world over, never had I participated in such detailed field work. This was definitely a first and incredible experience. I familiarized myself with every aspect of Giant Otters that was critical to the planning and design of their exhibits. Let me reiterate that, this was not limited to a visual surveying of their natural environments, it was extensive field research concerning every aspect of the lives of this magnificent animals.

The final result, their habitat within Amazon and Beyond, is a multilevel experience for visitors as well as the otters, there are a variety of pools interconnected with each other, several small falls and streams where the otters can play in. Of course in the lower pool there is ample room for them to dive, swim and explore. The deepest area of the largest pool is a little under 7 feet, and completely away from the visitors line of sight. This is a very small section, as the majority of the deep area within the same pool is 6 feet deep. The depth of the adjacent pool area to the viewing window is only 4 feet, and the Giant Otters love it as they spend considerable time there versus the deeper areas of the pool. They love to swim with their body above the water as much as they love to dive down to the bottom of the pool, but do not spend a lot of time swimming in the deeper areas of the pool.

Entrance Plaza area leading to the entire exhibition, all 27 acres of it.

There are currently a 122 species within the entire exhibit complex, including the Giant Otters.

four feet of water depth adjacent to the viewing window, allowing visitors of all ages to see the Giant Otters in all their glory.

The exhibit was designed with a multitude of hiding places for the otters to be away from the visitors. The deepest area of the largest pool is just shy of 7 feet, yet the Otters do not spend a considerable amount of time here, they love the streams and shallow areas within the pools.

There are three falls within the exhibit, and one of them was designed as a natural slide. They absolutely love these areas of the exhibit and will constantly explore them, diving in and out of them.

They way they bend their bodies when they swim in addition to not spending any significant amount of time upright in the water makes it very easy for them to maneuver in shallow areas.

There are three separate stream levels, all leading to the main exhibit pool. While the Giant Otters do spend significant time in both land and the main pool, the streams by far are their little slice of heaven.

The interesting part of this, and possibly most relevant informational piece in relation to the game is that the streams are considerably shallower than the main pool, they are mostly 3 feet in all areas, with the exception of the higher ground stream that does have a large variety of depth up to 4 feet deep.

 

[Danny_zoo]

Is there even any room for diving in 1m to 2m of water (barring the technicalities of it)? I like seeing them really swim around, seems like 1 meter wouldn't allow that. Watch Rudi's video on underwater mechanics if you haven't. It is really detailed and might help provide you with what you are hoping to achieve.

Casperite this was an experimental exhibit trial, as I do with all species in game prior to sketching out all of the particular of their future habitat. Following Rudy's principles, I conducted the same experiment and they do dive in game at around 3 meters, no less than that I believe. In real life that is definitely not an issue, see my post above for all of the particulars concerning their real life behavior. If I could get them to dive at 2 meters in the game I would be more than satisfied, in RL 2 meters (6+) feet is perfect for them and allows for all of their natural swimming and diving behaviors to fully materialize. I watched the whole thing, love Rudy and his videos very informative, unfortunately his building style in the game is substantially different from mine, so what he is willing to compromise with I'm not. We play the game in completely different ways. I watched Iben's video here from the forum as well, and he is definitely closer to my building style than Rudy, since he places greater emphasis in realism.

 

[Firestar97]

Just for reference I'm including a few pictures in this post, I do offer my apologies in advance to some of the members that have asked me in the past to keep my uploading of images to a minimum, since it makes it difficult for the threads to load. I'm a visual learner, and project my input a little more efficiently with the assistance of media, so please do bare with me this one time.

I was the lead architect for the Amazon & Beyond exhibit in Zoo Miami (formerly Miami Metrozoo) at the time of conception, the largest project of its kind in North American Zoological planning and design history. The exhibit at 27 acres (larger than many small zoos) was designed to hold well over a 100 different species in a multitude of habitats. We used over 40 different vendors for this project and the level of research and attention to detail was like nothing ever attempted before by other projects focusing on these regions of the world.

We were extremely fortunate that the sub tropical climate in Miami allowed for a faithful reproduction of many ecosystems found within tropical America. From the rare and seldom seen animal collection chosen to represent their native habitats to the over 700 plant species native to South and Central America that were selected for the project, everything was going to thrive at levels that had yet to be seen here in North America.

There were several cornerstone habitats within this exhibit, that were given a much higher priority from the very beginning, not only in the initial planning stages, construction and execution of the project but also during the extensive research that was undertaken. A small group of us traveled to South America and then Central America, with a variety of motives, from the acquisition of several rare species from local nature reserves to partnering with specialized local assets that would facility our research of each ecosystem and key species.

One of the species selected for extensive research was the Giant Otter. It would be too much of an explanation here to go into the details of what all of this research entailed, but I can attest that during decades of designing zoological exhibitions the world over, never had I participated in such detailed field work. This was definitely a first and incredible experience. I familiarized myself with every aspect of Giant Otters that was critical to the planning and design of their exhibits. Let me reiterate that, this was not limited to a visual surveying of their natural environments, it was extensive field research concerning every aspect of the lives of this magnificent animals.

The final result, their habitat within Amazon and Beyond, is a multilevel experience for visitors as well as the otters, there are a variety of pools interconnected with each other, several small falls and streams where the otters can play in. Of course in the lower pool there is ample room for them to dive, swim and explore. The deepest area of the largest pool is a little under 7 feet, and completely away from the visitors line of sight. This is a very small section, as the majority of the deep area within the same pool is 6 feet deep. The depth of the adjacent pool area to the viewing window is only 4 feet, and the Giant Otters love it as they spend considerable time there versus the deeper areas of the pool. They love to swim with their body above the water as much as they love to dive down to the bottom of the pool, but do not spend a lot of time swimming in the deeper areas of the pool.

View attachment 199228
Entrance Plaza area leading to the entire exhibition, all 27 acres of it.

View attachment 199236


There are currently a 122 species within the entire exhibit complex, including the Giant Otters.

View attachment 199208
four feet of water depth adjacent to the viewing window, allowing visitors of all ages to see the Giant Otters in all their glory.

View attachment 199209
The exhibit was designed with a multitude of hiding places for the otters to be a away from the visitors. The deepest area of the largest pool is just shy of 7 feet, yet the Otters do not spend a considerable amount of time here, they love the streams and shallow areas within the pools.
View attachment 199214
There are three falls within the exhibit, and one of them was designed as a natural slide. They absolutely love these areas of the exhibit and will constantly explore them, diving in and out of them.
View attachment 199215
They way they bend their bodies when they swim in addition to not spending any significant amount of time upright in the water makes it very easy for them to maneuver in shallow areas.

View attachment 199222
There are three separate stream levels all leading the main exhibit pool. While the Giant Otters do spend significant time in both land and the main pool, the streams by far are their little slice of heaven.

View attachment 199225
The interesting part of this, and possibly most relevant informational piece in relation to the game is that the streams are considerably shallower than the main pool, they are mostly 3 feet in all areas, with the exception of the higher ground stream that does have a large variety of depth up to 4 feet deep.

This Enclosure looks absolutely great. I would love to see what you create for them in the Game

 

[Danny_zoo]

This Enclosure looks absolutely great. I would love to see what you create for them in the Game

Thank you Urufu1997, the otters are definitely happy and that is in my opinion as important as the experience provided to every guest. Will definitely share the Giant Otters exhibit when is complete. After this recent DLC and with finally a good selection of highly needed scenery and construction pieces I have resumed work in the virtual zoo. It is a slow process as for me is like creating a virtual moving painting, it can not be rushed.

 

[NZFanatic]

First off, the first picture you provided does not look like an exhibit containing Giant Otters, looks like sea otters to me.

I'm totally on your side here, but I will point out that those otters are from Singapore River Safari's Amazon exhibit and are indeed giant otters.

 

[Khaidu]

I have to agree the depth is insane.. Unless I am doing it wrong? But an otter needs 75m depth.. this is 25m depth..

 

[NZFanatic]

I have to agree the depth is insane.. Unless I am doing it wrong? But an otter needs 75m depth.. this is 25m depth..

Er, no, it needs a minimum of 4m depth to activate diving, and a 75m squared area of water for its welfare.

 

[Khaidu]

Of course I was doing it wrong, the tooltips are confusing. Thanks!

 

[NZFanatic]

Of course I was doing it wrong, the tooltips are confusing. Thanks!

It is confusing. I'm not sure how the 75m2 is calculated considering including depth it should be cubic metres, but oh well. I play without welfare turned on so it doesn't worry me anyway.

 

[Firestar97]

It is confusing. I'm not sure how the 75m2 is calculated considering including depth it should be cubic metres, but oh well. I play without welfare turned on so it doesn't worry me anyway.

I'm pretty sure that it is like that: The Animal needs 4m deep Water in a Area that is at least 75m² big. If they would make it in m³ the Area could be only 4m² big on the Surface but 75m deep which would be really weird, so I assume it's a intentional Decision to do it like that. I hope I've explained it in a understandable Way

 

[Danny_zoo]

I'm totally on your side here, but I will point out that those otters are from Singapore River Safari's Amazon exhibit and are indeed giant otters.

Thank you for pointing that out, I honestly could not tell, the angle in the pic was not all that good, but you are definitely correct. Singapore is in my estimation the exception in many things, but they certainly spare no expense in their world class wildlife parks. Cile if you are reading this my apologies, those are definitely giant otters, and that tank pool is certainly over 13 feet deep. Everything else I wrote, I still stand for, just because they built it that way, does not mean that is a necessary requirement for them. In the case of the Singapore River Safari, it was done to create a dramatic scene for the visitor and not necessarily as a requirement for the animal's wellness. I'm going to add that I love all things Singapore, it is a phenomenal country and their dedication to wildlife institutions and present Mandai project have earned them the right to pretty much do whatever they want, but let us not forget that until very recently they also kept a polar bear in 90+ degrees for the same dramatic scene that they created that giant otters tank

 

[random goat]

Today Rudi indirectly showed how diving animals (eg. otters) can perfectly dive in shallow waters as long as there's an area with 4m depth and enough water surface to meet the requirements. As you can see, otters can dive in shallow waters even if it's a different body of water from that with the 4m depth area [Check Rudi's video here].
I think it's a matter of trial and error to make it possible. Worth being tested for sure. Waters deeper than 0.5m should avoid the clipping you see in Rudi's video, I guess.

This also pretty much confirms that there might indeed be technical limitations but that they possibly were introduced artificially when establishing the depth requirements and not inherent limitations per se (This is just my opinion, I could most likely be wrong).

Either way, fixing this doesn't seem impossible to me now that we have this information.

 

[Danny_zoo]

Today Rudi indirectly showed how diving animals (eg. otters) can perfectly dive in shallow waters as long as there's an area with 4m depth and enough water surface to meet the requirements. As you can see, otters can dive in shallow waters even if it's a different body of water from that with the 4m depth area [Check Rudi's video here].
I think it's a matter of trial and error to make it possible. Worth being tested for sure. Waters deeper than 0.5m should avoid the clipping you see in Rudi's video, I guess.

This also pretty much confirms that there might indeed be technical limitations but that they possibly were introduced artificially when establishing the depth requirements and not inherent limitations per se (This is just my opinion, I could most likely be wrong).

Either way, fixing this doesn't seem impossible to me now that we have this information.

Absolutely, that is my take on it as well. If they were to just provide an option to lift the requirement in Sandbox, then everyone who wants to built large tanks and pools can do so, and those of us with something different in mind, can fully enjoy the animals as well.

 

[FoxyDee]

Ugh, I do not play sandbox, would still want it lowered, but if it would be possible, I think it would be only fair to lower it for all modes.