Maybe FDev could decide whether Painite is special or not?

[Stealthie]

In terms of the game mechanics behind it...

1. Primarily, very different state tables. Platinum and Osmium prices are especially boosted by Boom, which is very commonplace, and not much else. So the top end of the market is all in Boom, all with similar prices. Painite and LTDs are boosted moderately by several different states, with Painite additionally boosted heavily by Public Holiday or Pirate Attacks - states which can only last a couple of days. LTDs best major combination seems to be Boom+Expansion - rarer than just Boom, but still common galaxy-wide - with Pirate Attack helping a bit.
2. Secondarily, Platinum has ten times the demand of Painite/LTDs, Osmium has ten times the demand of Platinum. That means all else roughly equal, 10x and 100x faster demand regeneration for Platinum and Osmium. So even if most people aren't mining Painite, there won't be 100x as many people mining Osmium. Because of the above state table differences the Osmium/Platinum sales will be more spread out, and the LTD sales will still be more spread out than the Painite

Commodities with heavy state table dependence will look volatile on the metric you're using, regardless of whether they're "desirable" or heavily used by players.

Ceramic Composites now: Cr5,445-Cr10,515. Spread of 93%
Ceramic Composites on a good day where its super-state combination exists anywhere: Cr 5,445-Cr27,000. Spread of 496%

...even more basic goods than that:
Power Generators: Cr3,649-Cr4,492 (23%)
Water Purifiers: Cr3,060-Cr4,628 (51%)

So, the volatility [1] you're looking at is basically "does the top state combination occur at >25 stations at once, or <25 stations at once"

Having some goods with reliable prices, and some goods which are occasionally a bit better but usually lower, is needed to make the markets interesting - the trade side of things has had plenty of examples of this for a while now.

[1] One issue of the "spread" metric is that on days where the super-rare combination doesn't occur at all, the spread looks lower despite the good actually being even more volatile, as in the Ceramic Composites example. (It's possible that this is also why LTDs look so low, not sure)


In terms of in-universe logic [2], Osmium and Platinum are valuable commodities with important industrial and technological uses, so they behave similarly to the other cheaper metals, with mainly economic states boosting the price.

Painite is a gemstone useful only for decoration, so it behaves similarly to the core-only gems with mainly event states boosting the price. As the Painite market has famously been a bit saturated, it's "last season's" gem and so less valuable than the others, though.

[2] Which is deteriorating rapidly as far as the relative prices of trade goods goes. Non-minable goods pricing is now a complete mess. But that's a separate complaint...

That's mostly plausible, but I feel like the comparison with LTDs shows that Painite IS out of whack.

I guess we could justify it by suggesting that LTDs have some kind of industrial/technological purpose that stabilises their market but that's a bit contrived.

 

[K Olley]

That doesn't work well, though, due to market volatility.

Basically, even if Painite has a theoretical value of, say, Cr300k/t, chances are you're only going to get around Cr200k/t when you sell it, unless you're prepared to hoof around the galaxy at a time when everybody else is asleep.

I offloaded a couple of cutter loads at 160k/t and one at 100k/t yesterday, no running around, emptying my carrier of 20k/t of mined goods and want to get on the road again, got enough that I have no need to chase credits

 

[Ian Doncaster]

That's mostly plausible, but I feel like the comparison with LTDs shows that Painite IS out of whack.

I guess we could justify it by suggesting that LTDs have some kind of industrial/technological purpose that stabilises their market but that's a bit contrived.

I would say it's the LTDs that are out-of-line, in that case, since the other core gems behave more like Painite.

 

[Eraden]

Okayyyyy. I poked around a few databases and found a Platinum hotspot that was only 5 jumps away from my home port. I went there and found at least 3 or four that appeared to be split up between metal rich and metallic rings. I dove down into one of the hotspots in the metallic ring and......"DEAR MOTHER OF GOD LOOK AT ALL THE PLATINUM"! One rock I found was as high as 63% Platinum. I think I had to eventually dump half of my limpets in order to make room for all the Platinum and Osmium I found. A VERY short time later, 224 tons of Platinum and 42 tons of Osmium filling up both cargo and refinery. Docked back at my home port. I'll sell off the stuff later. Man, that Platinum hotspot made the Painite hotspot I normally mine at look like a joke! Anyone complaining about mining needs to have a bit of a closer look at what is out there. There are riches galore!

 

[Eshackleton]

That's mostly plausible, but I feel like the comparison with LTDs shows that Painite IS out of whack.

I guess we could justify it by suggesting that LTDs have some kind of industrial/technological purpose that stabilises their market but that's a bit contrived.

Well in real life we have made a laser using diamonds that will cut through steel. Maybe that's what those beam lasers are made with.

 

[Stealthie]

Well in real life we have made a laser using diamonds that will cut through steel. Maybe that's what those beam lasers are made with.

True but, then again, how do we know Painite doesn't also have some practical use which gives it value?

We seem to be assuming Painite is a purely decorative commodity while justifying the stability of the market for other things by assuming they have some practical purpose.

I mean, if Painite is the only purely decorative commodity in the galaxy, it seems like it's value should be much higher as a result of that.
If, OTOH, some of the new "ites" are also decorative commodities, which have led to Painite becoming "unfashionable", one wonders why the markets for those "ites" are far more stable than Painite.

Painite seems to be stuck in limbo, with a mediocre value, similar to more mundane commodities, but with a more volatile market than almost anything else - even things with much higher values.

 

[Eshackleton]

True but, then again, how do we know Painite doesn't also have some practical use which gives it value?

We seem to be assuming Painite is a purely decorative commodity while justifying the stability of the market for other things by assuming they have some practical purpose.

I mean, if Painite is the only purely decorative commodity in the galaxy, it seems like it's value should be much higher as a result of that.
If, OTOH, some of the new "ites" are also decorative commodities, which have led to Painite becoming "unfashionable", one wonders why the markets for those "ites" are far more stable than Painite.

Painite seems to be stuck in limbo, with a mediocre value, similar to more mundane commodities, but with a more volatile market than almost anything else - even things with much higher values.

We don't really know what any of these resources are used for. We can only speculate based on how the price fluctuates. Painite seems like something that isn't often used but when needed is extremely valuable. Maybe its used in building large capital ships for militaries and is only valuable when a new ship is commissioned.

 

[VirtueXOI]

it's just due to the demand system being adapted for 2 cmdr delivering painite.

many still sell painite , and demand goes down , with prices.

In theory painite should still be up to 600K /U but with so low demand , prices goes down to 250K. And when good station appear demand is filled in hours.

 

[metatheurgist]

True but, then again, how do we know Painite doesn't also have some practical use which gives it value?

We seem to be assuming Painite is a purely decorative commodity while justifying the stability of the market for other things by assuming they have some practical purpose.

I mean, if Painite is the only purely decorative commodity in the galaxy, it seems like it's value should be much higher as a result of that.
If, OTOH, some of the new "ites" are also decorative commodities, which have led to Painite becoming "unfashionable", one wonders why the markets for those "ites" are far more stable than Painite.

Painite seems to be stuck in limbo, with a mediocre value, similar to more mundane commodities, but with a more volatile market than almost anything else - even things with much higher values.

You're right. We need to bring all the other "ites" down too.

 

[BL1P]

I think any ore that can be laser mined should be worth less than ore that can ONLY be core mined.
Simply because the process, access and sadly the respawn is far easier.

Pretty sure LTDs and Panite marked up originally as core only prices, was accidental.
Just a shame they let it fester in that state for so long.
But they are doing the same with a couple of cash cows right now so they have learned nothing sadly.

 

[askavir]

Platinum is the new Painite.

 

[Stealthie]

I think any ore that can be laser mined should be worth less than ore that can ONLY be core mined.
Simply because the process, access and sadly the respawn is far easier.

Pretty sure LTDs and Panite marked up originally as core only prices, was accidental.
Just a shame they let it fester in that state for so long.
But they are doing the same with a couple of cash cows right now so they have learned nothing sadly.

At the risk of labouring the point, it's not the value of Painite that's out of whack, it's the market volatility.

Let's take a look at a bunch of other commodities...

Benitoite is, according to EDDB, currently the most valuable commodity on the market - with a maximum value of Cr949,000 per ton.
The spread of buying prices across EDDB's top 25 stations is around 41%.
That's pretty volatile but it's value is high so I guess you'd expect the need to pick your moment/location to sell for optimal profit.

Then there's Muscravite.
Price: 938,000 per ton.
Spread: 36%

Rhodplumsite
Price: Cr807,000 per ton.
Spread: 13%

Monazite
Price: Cr786,000 per ton.
Spread: 3.5%

Void Opals
Price: Cr741,000 per ton.
Spread: 53%

Alexandrite
Price: Cr694,000 per ton.
Spread: 28%

Serendibite
Price: Cr667,000 per ton.
Spread: 24%

Grandidierite
Price: Cr682,000 per ton.
Spread: 13%

Low Temp Diamonds
Price: Cr467,000 per ton.
Spread: 39%

Platinum
Price: Cr295,000
Spread: 2.7%

Painite
Price: Cr275,000 per ton.
Spread: 30%

Osmium
Price: 269,000 per ton.
Spread: 4.2%

Bromellite
Price: Cr116,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%

Palladium
Price: Cr71,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%

Gold
Price: Cr67,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%


As we can see, there's a general trend whereby the most valuable commodities also have more volatile prices.
The less a commodity is worth, the more stable prices are.

Seems like Painite doesn't conform to this trend, though.
It's value has been lowered so it's most obviously comparable with Platinum and Osmium but they're much easier to sell because the price is stable to within ~4% whereas Painite prices fluctuate by at least 30%... which is the sort of spread you'd expect to see back when Painite retained it's old value.

To be fair, it's notable that the same thing also applies to VOs and LTDs too.
It seems like FDev have nerfed the value of those things but haven't adjusted the volatility of the prices to suit their current value.

 

[photomankc]

I can't recall seeing any hot spots other than Painite in metallic rings. Does anyone out there know if Osmium or Platinum hot spots actually exist in the game?

Platinum does. Never seen Osmium. Seen several of the other core-only types as well.

 

[Susanna]

I suspect the demand also has an influence on the volatility of Painite price. Maybe the buying price of many stations are around 300K, but so many commanders are keeping a keen eye on the market price so when a station starts offering 300K, that station is immediately swamped with sellers, so many of these stations have demand filled and their prices immediately drop to 200K. When you check Inara or EDDB prices, you only see one station offering 300K because that station only just been offering that high price not long ago, all other stations who were offering 300K earlier have their demand filled, so their prices now drop to 200K. Often when you rushed and flied to that one station offering 300K price, by the time you got there, its demand has been filled up nearly full, its offering no longer near 300K.

P.S. Basically it is not worth concentrating on painite mining as your main and only source now. Better concentrate on other metals and/or minerals.

Your waffle entirely failed to explain why Painite has such a wide distribution of selling prices compared to other materials as illustrated by the OP.

As the OP has pointed out, it's as if other BGS variables have not been adjusted for Painite... Only the market prices. This would be entirely within FDevs typically minimalistic approach to 'game corrections'.

 

[Susanna]

At the risk of labouring the point, it's not the value of Painite that's out of whack, it's the market volatility.

Let's take a look at a bunch of other commodities...

Benitoite is, according to EDDB, currently the most valuable commodity on the market - with a maximum value of Cr949,000 per ton.
The spread of buying prices across EDDB's top 25 stations is around 41%.
That's pretty volatile but it's value is high so I guess you'd expect the need to pick your moment/location to sell for optimal profit.

Then there's Muscravite.
Price: 938,000 per ton.
Spread: 36%

Rhodplumsite
Price: Cr807,000 per ton.
Spread: 13%

Monazite
Price: Cr786,000 per ton.
Spread: 3.5%

Void Opals
Price: Cr741,000 per ton.
Spread: 53%

Alexandrite
Price: Cr694,000 per ton.
Spread: 28%

Serendibite
Price: Cr667,000 per ton.
Spread: 24%

Grandidierite
Price: Cr682,000 per ton.
Spread: 13%

Low Temp Diamonds
Price: Cr467,000 per ton.
Spread: 39%

Platinum
Price: Cr295,000
Spread: 2.7%

Painite
Price: Cr275,000 per ton.
Spread: 30%

Osmium
Price: 269,000 per ton.
Spread: 4.2%

Bromellite
Price: Cr116,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%

Palladium
Price: Cr71,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%

Gold
Price: Cr67,000 per ton.
Spread: 1%


As we can see, there's a general trend whereby the most valuable commodities also have more volatile prices.
The less a commodity is worth, the more stable prices are.

Seems like Painite doesn't conform to this trend, though.
It's value has been lowered so it's most obviously comparable with Platinum and Osmium but they're much easier to sell because the price is stable to within ~4% whereas Painite prices fluctuate by at least 30%... which is the sort of spread you'd expect to see back when Painite retained it's old value.

To be fair, it's notable that the same thing also applies to VOs and LTDs too.
It seems like FDev have nerfed the value of those things but haven't adjusted the volatility of the prices to suit their current value.

This is interesting data but it needs to be related to the demand spread to be in context...
I was looking at the mined mats last night and from what I saw (broad impression here), all of the mined mats have demand figures below a 1000t now! 5% of this (roughly the threshold beyond where the price/demand starts to fall) is only 50! So if you sell more than 50t the price falls!
This just plain sucks!

Is this intended to break FC mining? Because it does for me!

 

[Exeider]

snip..

This is what we call "Market Manipulation" and in real life, people go to jail for stuff like this. Because it's unfair.

the thing is, none of the commodities in this game, save for Tritium actually are "used" for anything, essentially demand is nothing more then the game taking numbers out of a column, the commodities themselves just disappearing into the either. It's not like if you flood the market with materials that make ships, all of a sudden the shipyards in those stations start producing more ships and at a discount. If commodities like materials actually were used, then you'd start to see real supply and demand curves for things. But then you'd also start to see instances of gasp a player run economy and we can't have that. If there was a legit crafting system in this game, with the amount of commodities I mine or trade in on a weekly basis, I should be able to make everything I want, save for buying the crafting blueprints to learn how to make the things that is. Now that I would love to see, player built ships, modules, even engineered and selling it on the carrier outfitters and shipyards.

At the end of the day, even for a fake market, this game doesn't reflect economy too well, this has always been one of the weaker aspects of the game.

 

[Stealthie]

Is this intended to break FC mining? Because it does for me!

Well, that's the thing, for me at least.

I don't actually mind that the value of Painite has dropped by ~75%.
I like laser-mining and I tend to assume metallic rings contain a bunch more valuable things than icy rings so I mine in metallic rings.
One of those things is Painite.
When it comes to taking my stuff to market, I can find a system to sell Platinum and Osmium for near to the best price (within 5% or so) fairly easily.
With Painite, however, most systems offer a mediocre price and, if I resort to EDDB, I end up chasing around a herd of other FCs, being able to sell 100t and then schlepping to the next system on the list.
This is kind of irritating and, as you say, just sucks the fun out of mining.

Basically, it seems like every commodity has a "curve" dictating the spread of prices, with the curve being sharper for the most valuable items.
The curve for VOs, LTDs and Painite seems to have been left as it was back when they were really valuable, instead of being "flattened" to make them similar to comparable (after the adjustments) items.

 

[Stealthie]

the thing is, none of the commodities in this game, save for Tritium actually are "used" for anything, essentially demand is nothing more then the game taking numbers out of a column, the commodities themselves just disappearing into the either. It's not like if you flood the market with materials that make ships, all of a sudden the shipyards in those stations start producing more ships and at a discount. If commodities like materials actually were used, then you'd start to see real supply and demand curves for things. But then you'd also start to see instances of gasp a player run economy and we can't have that. If there was a legit crafting system in this game, with the amount of commodities I mine or trade in on a weekly basis, I should be able to make everything I want, save for buying the crafting blueprints to learn how to make the things that is. Now that I would love to see, player built ships, modules, even engineered and selling it on the carrier outfitters and shipyards.

At the end of the day, even for a fake market, this game doesn't reflect economy too well, this has always been one of the weaker aspects of the game.

Yep.

If I rock up at a station that has a good buying price for Painite and find a bunch of other FCs there, I understand that I'm likely to see demand drop and prices drop too.
That's fine.

The issue is that the galaxy, as a whole, obviously has artificially generated levels of demand (based on things like economy, population and state etc) to control the markets that players can sell to.
Clearly, the basics of this are that low value items have more stable markets and high value items have less stable markets.
This makes sense from a real-world POV (with markets for high value goods being fickle), and also makes sense from an in-game POV by forcing players to make more effort if they want big rewards.

Currently, however, a player has to make just as much of an effort to earn credits from selling Painite as they do to sell goods worth 3 times as much.
Conversely, other items of similar value to Painite (now) are much easier to sell.

 

[Susanna]

Well, that's the thing, for me at least.

I don't actually mind that the value of Painite has dropped by ~75%.
I like laser-mining and I tend to assume metallic rings contain a bunch more valuable things than icy rings so I mine in metallic rings.
One of those things is Painite.
When it comes to taking my stuff to market, I can find a system to sell Platinum and Osmium for near to the best price (within 5% or so) fairly easily.
With Painite, however, most systems offer a mediocre price and, if I resort to EDDB, I end up chasing around a herd of other FCs, being able to sell 100t and then schlepping to the next system on the list.
This is kind of irritating and, as you say, just sucks the fun out of mining.

Basically, it seems like every commodity has a "curve" dictating the spread of prices, with the curve being sharper for the most valuable items.
The curve for VOs, LTDs and Painite seems to have been left as it was back when they were really valuable, instead of being "flattened" to make them similar to comparable (after the adjustments) items.

As usual with fdev, they have done a half arsed job of rebalancing the game...

 

[Susanna]

As usual with fdev, they have done a half arsed job of rebalancing the game...

As you have said, it's not so much the price per ton now that is the issue, it's the demand level and the variability of this level coupled with the associated demand level price fall-off... It's simply not economical to jump between a dozen stations to sell 50t at each of them... Screw that!

So as it currently stands, mining is dead for me. Even if I gathered the materials, I couldn't sell them efficiently... Without dozens of trips at 50t a trip until the demand dwindled to zip.