Viper IV - Opinions?

[Vedmo]

However, in CZs it's a diff story...I found it incredibly slow to chew through the hull (I think due to their military armour) , so much so that I switched back into my Vulture...which does less dps that the Chief...but takes down CZ targets in a 3rd of the time.

If you have Cytos unlocked, 3 of them in the smalls on a Chieftain, with a medium corrosive MC and 2 large MC's will absolutely shred CZs. No Cytos? Medium beam with 2 small rails (plasma, spam them on big shield targets, use them as big shield stripping dps boost) and small corrosive MC + 2 large MC is almost as good. No way in the world any Vulture outpaces either in a CZ. Target PP and rarely will a hull drop below 50% before they blow.

Bonus: crazy fun Chieftain CZ build, toss two high yield SRB cannons in the larges and watch Condas/Vettes blow up with 2 or 3 volleys that hit anywhere kind of close to the PP. Gunships, FDS, FAS often with a single double hit.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

If you have Cytos unlocked, 3 of them in the smalls on a Chieftain, with a medium corrosive MC and 2 large MC's will absolutely shred CZs. No Cytos? Medium beam with 2 small rails (plasma, spam them on big shield targets, use them as big shield stripping dps boost) and small corrosive MC + 2 large MC is almost as good. No way in the world any Vulture outpaces either in a CZ. Target PP and rarely will a hull drop below 50% before they blow.

Bonus: crazy fun Chieftain CZ build, toss two high yield SRB cannons in the larges and watch Condas/Vettes blow up with 2 or 3 volleys that hit anywhere kind of close to the PP. Gunships, FDS, FAS often with a single double hit.

Yup. Tried very similar loadouts on the Chief and others...I was specifically referring to an all out incendiary MC build.
I can clear a high CZ in just over 7mins in my Vulture, 7m 16s is my fastest...you're right regarding DPS but while the DPS is less, the ToT is almost 100% in my Vulture. People always focus on DPS and often ignore ToT, which can have a huge impact on the speed at which a ship pops.
I also religiously target modules...usually PP or on the odd occasion the FSD...who wants to chew through all that hull, far too much work

 

[Deleted member 182079]

If you have Cytos unlocked, 3 of them in the smalls on a Chieftain, with a medium corrosive MC and 2 large MC's will absolutely shred CZs. No Cytos? Medium beam with 2 small rails (plasma, spam them on big shield targets, use them as big shield stripping dps boost) and small corrosive MC + 2 large MC is almost as good. No way in the world any Vulture outpaces either in a CZ. Target PP and rarely will a hull drop below 50% before they blow.

Bonus: crazy fun Chieftain CZ build, toss two high yield SRB cannons in the larges and watch Condas/Vettes blow up with 2 or 3 volleys that hit anywhere kind of close to the PP. Gunships, FDS, FAS often with a single double hit.

While it's getting a bit OT now, I refurbished my AX Chieftan last night into a regular PvE combat build (distinct lack of Thargoids in Colonia...) by fitting whatever weapons modules I had in storage. Turns out to be a remarkably fun heavy hitter - 3x Cytos (with phasing), 2x Pacifiers and the medium... wait for it... an Enzyme Missile Rack. Fitted an engineered KWS (2 seconds scan time), and the procedure goes like Scan > remove shields with Cytos > give enemy hull the "Thargoid Touch" with a missile > finish them off with the Pacifiers > lotsa credits in a short period of time.

I should really try this build in a CZ (sans KWS) but the cannons above seem an interesting idea also.

 

[Vedmo]

Yup. Tried very similar loadouts on the Chief and others...I was specifically referring to an all out incendiary MC build.

Woops! Ya I see what I missed there on the first read.

So far as ToT, for me it's probably better with the Chieftain, but I will 100% admit that has nothing to do with either ship so much as I have tons of hours in the Chieftain and while I've fully engineered a Vulture and enjoyed flying it for a bit, I definitely never mastered it.

- 3x Cytos (with phasing), 2x Pacifiers and the medium... wait for it... an Enzyme Missile Rack. Fitted an engineered KWS (2 seconds scan time), and the procedure goes like Scan > remove shields with Cytos > give enemy hull the "Thargoid Touch" with a missile > finish them off with the Pacifiers > lotsa credits in a short period of time.

I should really try this build in a CZ (sans KWS) but the cannons above seem an interesting idea also.

I use a Pacifier/Cyto build for elite assassination missions, very nasty.

The cannon build (in my hands) suffers a bit against small ships, and I know a lot of people don't like the heavy damage hit from high yield (SRB still way more damage than stock cannon with the hit), but it's just fun. I have a couple of OC cannons too, and they definitely hit hard. The high yields just destroy modules though. Not uncommon to land a salvo and see the ship just stop moving. Not claiming it's an ideal or meta CZ build, but i enjoy it.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Woops! Ya I see what I missed there on the first read.

So far as ToT, for me it's probably better with the Chieftain, but I will 100% admit that has nothing to do with either ship so much as I have tons of hours in the Chieftain and while I've fully engineered a Vulture and enjoyed flying it for a bit, I definitely never mastered it.




I use a Pacifier/Cyto build for elite assassination missions, very nasty.

The cannon build (in my hands) suffers a bit against small ships, and I know a lot of people don't like the heavy damage hit from high yield (SRB still way more damage than stock cannon with the hit), but it's just fun. I have a couple of OC cannons too, and they definitely hit hard. The high yields just destroy modules though. Not uncommon to land a salvo and see the ship just stop moving. Not claiming it's an ideal or meta CZ build, but i enjoy it.

Yeah in fairness my experience with cannons has been mixed - sometimes it's hard to tell whether they even hit or not. When they do though (especially high yields, while keeping an eye on the target's internals) it can be very satisfying.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

The cannon build (in my hands) suffers a bit against small ships, and I know a lot of people don't like the heavy damage hit from high yield (SRB still way more damage than stock cannon with the hit), but it's just fun. I have a couple of OC cannons too, and they definitely hit hard. The high yields just destroy modules though. Not uncommon to land a salvo and see the ship just stop moving. Not claiming it's an ideal or meta CZ build, but i enjoy it.

Yeah in fairness my experience with cannons has been mixed - sometimes it's hard to tell whether they even hit or not. When they do though (especially high yields, while keeping an eye on the target's internals) it can be very satisfying.

Cannons are one of the only weapons I do not have in my engineered collection...but over the last year I keep intending to engineer loads for my Corvette, just for fun...I think you two have just pushed me into finally getting it done
For me SRB is a no brainer, but is it worth having one with Force Shell?...or would you go with High Yield across the board?

 

[Vedmo]

Cannons are one of the only weapons I do not have in my engineered collection...but over the last year I keep intending to engineer loads for my Corvette, just for fun...I think you two have just pushed me into finally getting it done
For me SRB is a no brainer, but is it worth having one with Force Shell?...or would you go with High Yield across the board?

I never actually found any build I liked high yield on until I ran 2 larges on the Chieftain, as I can reliably hit with that ship and it's enough damage from 2 larges to wreck stuff. More of a novelty build for me and I'm guessing better cannon users than me could make a strong case against high yield altogether. You can still get crazy module destruction with out high yield. I guess I'm trying to avoid any concrete suggestion/opinion on them, sorry!

I've ran double huge force shells on a Vette, and while it can be amusing, I don't have the skill to really leverage it into controlling the enemy ship outside of keeping them moving backwards while face tanking.

I run 3 mediums on a Challenger sometimes, 2 auto loader and 1 dispersal.

Occasionally I go park by the Sarge and just try different stuff out, then usually over time the cannons are all in storage again until it's been long enough for me to forget and want to try them all out again.

 

[Madrax573]

Sometimes I wonder if we're talking about the same ship.

I really hated the Viper 4 but I wanted to love it. It's a bad shield tank, and if you try to armor tank it you'll just end up weighing it down so it flies like a brick. And all that's irrelevant anyway because the CONSTANT module malfunctions on this ship in any meaningful combat were enough to drive me mad.

Maybe as a vet with engineering, in time, I could come to appreciate the Viper 4 but for a new player? You're much better of with something not so...confused about what it's supposed to be. It doesn't have Eagle speed or handling. It doesn't have Vulture DPS or it's tank. It's not better than a Cobra in multi-role use. It's just so....BLAH.

From a 'new player' prospective.. Farseer (one of the first engineers to get access to) will take this ship from 'brick' to a beast with simple grade 3 dirty drives.

I flew the V4 long before I got into a vulture and to be perfectly honest I wondered why everyone shouted so much about the Vulture. My V4 was performing just as well even only half engineered, whereas the vulture REQUIRES engineering to a decent level before you get it's potential. I'd recommend the V4 for a newbie way before the vulture.

One point on the V4 - Learn FA-off the limitations on lat/vert thrusters with FA-on gimp the V4 horribly.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I flew the V4 long before I got into a vulture and to be perfectly honest I wondered why everyone shouted so much about the Vulture.

There's absolutely no comparison. First off, the class 3 large hardpoints of the Vulture make a massive difference in damage. Especially against larger ship hulls/armor. The Vulture is more maneuverable and has better defenses as well. I mean go right down the line, please show me where the Viper has an advantage in stock form?

Meaning once both are Engineered, the Viper STILL loses to the Vulture in basically every combat related category. There's a reason the Vulture cost several times more than a Viper Mk 4.

And hey, full disclosure, I'm not a Vulture homer. I don't even like small ships to be honest. I'm just saying, it's just a flat out better platform for combat than the Viper. It's just....self evident imo.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

The Vulture is more maneuverable...

It's really not. It rotates better on pitch, roll, yaw - but its thrusters can't touch the V4's, and neither can its decidedly average boost cycle. It can't move around remotely as well as the V4.

So there you go. One pretty huge advantage even a stock V4 has over a stock Vulture. V4 is more maneuverable. Once engineering kicks in, this gets even more obvious.
I'm not bashing the Vulture either btw...it's a decent ship, but just a bit big & 'meh'. As I mentioned earlier - you should probably revisit the V4 once you've some engineered modules you can fit on one, especially thrusters, and give it a go.

 

[Madrax573]

There's absolutely no comparison. First off, the class 3 large hardpoints of the Vulture make a massive difference in damage. Especially against larger ship hulls/armor. The Vulture is more maneuverable and has better defenses as well. I mean go right down the line, please show me where the Viper has an advantage in stock form?

Meaning once both are Engineered, the Viper STILL loses to the Vulture in basically every combat related category. There's a reason the Vulture cost several times more than a Viper Mk 4.

And hey, full disclosure, I'm not a Vulture homer. I don't even like small ships to be honest. I'm just saying, it's just a flat out better platform for combat than the Viper. It's just....self evident imo.

Hardpoints: Vulture = raw dps. V4 = flexibility and 2x as many effects that can simply shut down your opponent. Raw DPS means nothing it it isn't applied.

Maneuverability: Sorry in this instance you are incorrect. The V4 will outfly the Vulture all day long. the difference is speed is not great and the boost profile along with the V4 thruster response simply means the vulture cannot keep up with it.

Defenses: Mixed bag. Vulture has more raw numbers but is much bigger and easier to hit. Canopy exposed. V4 is much smaller profile, not as good shields but better armour numbers. probably more of a personal choice but I find the vulture dies quicker to focused fire than the V4 simply due to it's size. I often finish high CZ in my V4 without even losing the BW shields...

These are from stock form. Once you start engineering then any advantages the Vulture has in raw numbers gets much less, and given the bonus of engineering the V4 just goes from crazy to beastly. The Vulture pretty much requires to be engineered to get any decent performance out of it.

So with all the above and plenty of experience in both ships (I taught myself Fa-off in an engineered Vulture) I still pick the V4 over the Vulture, unless I'm specifically going for big ships only and using a specialised build for such. In all other circumstances the V4 is simply easier and more flexible to achieve the combat needs

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

It's really not. It rotates better on pitch, roll, yaw - but its thrusters can't touch the V4's, and neither can its decidedly average boost cycle. It can't move around remotely as well as the V4.

So there you go. One pretty huge advantage even a stock V4 has over a stock Vulture. V4 is more maneuverable. Once engineering kicks in, this gets even more obvious.
I'm not bashing the Vulture either btw...it's a decent ship, but just a bit big & 'meh'. As I mentioned earlier - you should probably revisit the V4 once you've some engineered modules you can fit on one, especially thrusters, and give it a go.

Okay I'm out, look everyone should fly what they like. If thrusters alone are that important to you that it's the single metric you judge a ship by, that's great and if it works for you I have nothing bad to say about it.

 

[Oytis57]

Okay I'm out, look everyone should fly what they like. If thrusters alone are that important to you that it's the single metric you judge a ship by, that's great and if it works for you I have nothing bad to say about it.

You don't listen to what people say,your experience it's very limited,then of course everyone must fly what they like but here the argument was a different one,you talk of a very capable combat ship that you obviously don't know how to fly/engineer.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

Okay I'm out, look everyone should fly what they like. If thrusters alone are that important to you that it's the single metric you judge a ship by, that's great and if it works for you I have nothing bad to say about it.

I completely agree that everyone should fly what they like. What I disagree with is spreading disinformation about a ship - particularly when it's just so wrong.
It was you that said V4 flew like a brick, didn't have Eagle's handling (implying again lack of agility), and stated that the Vulture was more maneuverable etc. - all of which are pretty much nonsense.

I made a particular point of discussing only maneuverability earlier in the thread. Plenty of others have chipped in with relevant points about combat/utility/builds etc.
And yeah - I am interested in thrusters, mostly. I do think they're very important things, cos they determine how maneuverable a ship is, and I really do only care about that.

As I have said a couple of times now; I really do recommend you revisit the ship, especially once you've engineered some decent thrusters for it. Reassess its performance with a focus on thrust and movement rather than purely rotation, particularly under boost - and you may find yourself with an "ah-ha!" moment....

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I completely agree that everyone should fly what they like. What I disagree with is spreading disinformation about a ship - particularly when it's just so wrong.
It was you that said V4 flew like a brick, didn't have Eagle's handling (implying again lack of agility), and stated that the Vulture was more maneuverable etc. - all of which are pretty much nonsense.

I made a particular point of discussing only maneuverability earlier in the thread. Plenty of others have chipped in with relevant points about combat/utility/builds etc.
And yeah - I am interested in thrusters, mostly. I do think they're very important things, cos they determine how maneuverable a ship is, and I really do only care about that.

As I have said a couple of times now; I really do recommend you revisit the ship, especially once you've engineered some decent thrusters for it. Reassess its performance with a focus on thrust and movement rather than purely rotation, particularly under boost - and you may find yourself with an "ah-ha!" moment....

I felt for a small ship it handled like a brick. And it clearly isn't as snappy as an Eagle. So please stop taking offense to opinions. I was not
speaking nonsense.

Sounds like you're talking about the Viper 3 half the time. Sure we're talking about the same thing?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

You don't listen to what people say,your experience it's very limited,then of course everyone must fly what they like but here the argument was a different one,you talk poopoo of a very capable combat ship that you obviously don't know how to fly/engineer.

I can't tell you what a waste of Engineering mats the Viper 4 is to me. There are so many better options. So not worth it.

I'm very sorry if I offended the Viper 4 fan club but it's a cheap and oft-ignored combat ship for a reason. And I'm entitled to an opinion.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

I felt for a small ship it handled like a brick. And it clearly isn't as snappy as an Eagle. So please stop taking offense to opinions. I was not
speaking nonsense.

Sounds like you're talking about the Viper 3 half the time. Sure we're talking about the same thing?

Yes, I'm definitely talking about the Viper 4. I would have thought the (very heavy yet very agile racing ship) build and videos I linked earlier demonstrated that, so I guess you didn't bother to look. The mk4 shares many similarities in its flight profile with the mk3, as I explained on the previous page, but I guess you didn't read that either.
To avoid any further confusion; the mk4 is definitely capable of being more maneuverable than either the mk3 or the Eagle mk2.

I have taken no offence taken at your opinions, or indeed anything you've said. I'm just disagreeing with you - and it's a discussion forum, where such things happen.

I get that you don't like the ship. But when you're describing why you don't like it, based on your experiences flying it - you're not actually describing the ship accurately, just how you found it.

So when you say

I felt for a small ship it handled like a brick

...it seems you are mistaking your own handling of it (like a brick) as a reflection of the actual capabilities of the ship.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's obvious. But there's folks who've posted here with experiences of flying that ship that are massively different to your own, myself included. So it seems equally obvious, in my opinion, that your handling of it like a brick is not the fault of the ship.

 

[dekot]

I can't tell you what a waste of Engineering mats the Viper 4 is to me. There are so many better options. So not worth it.

I'm very sorry if I offended the Viper 4 fan club but it's a cheap and oft-ignored combat ship for a reason. And I'm entitled to an opinion.

We're all talking about fully engineered, we all assumed everybody was talking about fully engineered because that is how most people judge ships. This game has been out for a long time and a lot of these people offering these opinions have been playing for a long time. If you didn't automatically assume they were talking about fully engineered, that makes me question how long you have been playing this game and the worth of your opinion in a matter in which you just admitted you know nothing about (engineered V4). And as I see it, they were more than polite and you were the one who got frustrated that everybody else here didn't immediately agree with you.

Also, I don't know if this was you or not but small ships are not training wheels (excluding vulture). Medium ships are training wheels, especially the new ones that don't even require pip management and especially these days when a single mined ore is worth more than most small ships. From medium ships you can decide whether to master FAOFF and go big ships or be a man and go small ships. Vulture, both kraits, and maybe the FAS are the training wheel ships in this game IMO because of less pip management required and excellent pitch speeds, which is the #1 thing new players look for in a ship when they want "agile." This is before they learn to use lateral thrusters. I guess "noob ship" is what they would be called in other games.

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

You guys seriously trying to argue math here? Viper IV is really worse in every possible way than Vulture for pure combat period.

Just check numbers (both ships fully combat with stacked SB/HRP/MRPs with Bi-Weaves and fully engineered):

• C4 thrusters vs. C5. In similar build highlighted above, sheer speed difference will be ~50m/s and boost is whooping ~150 m/s. No surprise, since higher class can handle extra weight much better that lower one. You cannot really be talking about manueverability advantage here, which such jarring difference. And again, Viper IV doesn't exactly have small or slim profile like Eagle does, f.e.
• C3 distributor vs. C5, which lets Vulture have extreme sustain fire capability for only x2 C3 hardpoints, while Viper will struggle. This transfers to possibility of over 750 DPS easily for Vulture, with crippling experimentals and you won't have to put more than 1 PIP in Weapons with that. Vipers cannot even remotely reach these numbers, no matter how you outfit them. More ammo and more damage, what's there to argue?
• Then we take hull. Fully stacked for combat, Vulture will have about ~500 hull points advantage, but that doesn't mean jack since it wins in each resist about 2000 point!
• Then let's take shield. Vulture isn't only has over 300 more raw MJ, but easy gets +1000 more points than Viper in each resist. No surprise, since we're talking only 2 Utilities vs. 4! And biggest advantage here is that Vulture will have exact same Recovery time, but about ~20 sec more Recharge. That not to mention it can go Shield Tank with Prismatics + C5 SCB while Viper IV won't have near as much module capacity for it to be in any way efficient.

Arguing marginal maneuverability at certain speed threshold feels like a joke, when it loses in speed that hard under the weight. Raw damage is the ONLY thing that matters in PVE. In PVP nobody will ever take Viper seriously, it cannot harm any G5 combat Medium ship no matter how it's build.

I mean, you can do whatever you want with ship you like, but it doesn't make this ship even remotely good for certain purposes no matter what you do with it. Some players use Dolphins or Type 9s for combat, you can do that, but you will be very limited in activities you take part in, and there are plenty of ships that do that FAR better. Ships in ED are absolutely unbalanced and have very sophisticated roles. It's obvious as a day, I don't understand how can there be an argument about it...

 

[dekot]

You guys seriously trying to argue math here? Viper IV is really worse in every possible way than Vulture for pure combat period.

Just check numbers (both ships fully combat with stacked SB/HRP/MRPs with Bi-Weaves and fully engineered):

• C4 thrusters vs. C5. In similar build highlighted above, sheer speed difference will be ~50m/s and boost is whooping ~150 m/s. No surprise, since higher class can handle extra weight much better that lower one. You cannot really be talking about manueverability advantage here, which such jarring difference. And again, Viper IV doesn't exactly have small or slim profile like Eagle does, f.e.
• C3 distributor vs. C5, which lets Vulture have extreme sustain fire capability for only x2 C3 hardpoints, while Viper will struggle. This transfers to possibility of over 750 DPS easily for Vulture, with crippling experimentals and you won't have to put more than 1 PIP in Weapons with that. Vipers cannot even remotely reach these numbers, no matter how you outfit them. More ammo and more damage, what's there to argue?
• Then we take hull. Fully stacked for combat, Vulture will have about ~500 hull points advantage, but that doesn't mean jack since it wins in each resist about 2000 point!
• Then let's take shield. Vulture isn't only has over 300 more raw MJ, but easy gets +1000 more points than Viper in each resist. No surprise, since we're talking only 2 Utilities vs. 4! And biggest advantage here is that Vulture will have exact same Recovery time, but about ~20 sec more Recharge. That not to mention it can go Shield Tank with Prismatics + C5 SCB while Viper IV won't have near as much module capacity for it to be in any way efficient.

Arguing marginal maneuverability at certain speed threshold feels like a joke, when it loses in speed that hard under the weight. Raw damage is the ONLY thing that matters in PVE. In PVP nobody will ever take Viper seriously, it cannot harm any G5 combat Medium ship no matter how it's build.

I mean, you can do whatever you want with ship you like, but it doesn't make this ship even remotely good for certain purposes no matter what you do with it. Some players use Dolphins or Type 9s for combat, you can do that, but you will be very limited in activities you take part in, and there are plenty of ships that do that FAR better. Ships in ED are absolutely unbalanced and have very sophisticated roles. It's obvious as a day, I don't understand how can there be an argument about it...

Vulture is hands down the best small combat ship, although it's also the most boring ship. Then it's the courier. Then it's a matter of opinion. But both vipers have boost characteristics that are unique out of all other ships in the game. That's not an opinion.

Just go engineer a V4 and you will see, knowing the numbers in this game is nothing compared to actual flight models.