C'mon, this is faintly ridiculous.

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Yes, the block mechanism reliably prevents a blocked CMDR from re-instancing with yours. It also does not require that you have instanced with them before; it's possible to search for someone on the social menu and block them directly, or import names from the CMDR history file and then block them from there.

I don't like the mechanism because it gives individual players unilateral control over the instancing of all others they encounter, including those they have not blocked, by imposing their instancing filter on any instance they are part of. I also find the ability to arbitrary block others against the spirit of Open; I firmly believe it should be on Frontier to enforce their rules regarding player behavior, and not allow those who are not violating said rules, to be excluded on the arbitrary whims of others.

I think ED's blocking mechanism is genius. I've played a lot of games, and I'm amazed nobody else has thought of it. It solves every problem with games like this where unsolcited PVP is forced on people. It gives the community a tool to deal with the gankers and bad apples, instead of wasting endless years of attempting to balance the problem out with coding.

You keep saying this is a "persistent" world, but it's anything but. If you take away blocking, people will just switch to Solo. Blocking allows people who don't want to be farm content for some jerk in a murderboat to still engage with others in the open world.

The only ones who seem to complain about the blocking feature, are those who engage in PVP. So that's proof positive the feature is good for the game and working exactly as intended.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Well Morbad, I appreciate your calm and logical discussion, but you and I are also proceeding from totally different precepts and experiences, and I don't see how the changes you would want benefit the game or overwhelming majority of the player base.

And as I said, I don't really respect your desire for intended changes after you acknowledged you weren't interested in offering a greater challenge to those who want it without affecting the play experience of the majority.

Cheers gang.

I regret I only had one like to give your posts. You deserve a medal and a job well done for your efforts here in my opinion.

 

[Morbad]

You keep saying this is a "persistent" world, but it's anything but.

The effects any CMDR has on the underlying game persist until overwritten by the actions of others and are present irrespective of mode.

If you take away blocking, people will just switch to Solo.

A much less disruptive solution, because Solo doesn't impose itself on anyone else.

Blocking allows people who don't want to be farm content for some jerk in a murderboat to still engage with others in the open world.

At the cost of pushing their personal blacklist on all of those others that they engage with.

proof

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Old Duck]

If you take away blocking, people will just switch to Space Engineers.

FTFY

 

[Morbad]

FTFY

Depending on how blocking and instancing works in Odyssey, I might switch to Space Engineers.

I really don't like the idea of having to patronize Valves/Steam though, and I don't think any game could cause me to break my sixteen year boycott of the platform.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

The effects any CMDR has on the underlying game persist until overwritten by the actions of others and are present irrespective of mode.



A much less disruptive solution, because Solo doesn't impose itself on anyone else.



At the cost of pushing their personal blacklist on all of those others that they engage with.



I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Blocking doesn't impose anything on you. But I can see why you view it in those terms, as it's the only valid argument against blocking and how it affects your play-style that you could come up with.

You don't have rights to my sandbox, my instance, or my gametime. When/if I decide to PVP, it will be on my terms and not others. This is one of the biggest problems with games like this. Players viewing other players as their own personal content.

Blocking is a genius compromise. Instead of a PVP or PVE server splitting the community etc etc.

You've been lecturing me and others about having real "consequences" in game for pages and pages now, so I don't understand. If you don't want players to block you, then don't kill them. Otherwise suffer a consequence of your bad behavior.

 

[Old Duck]

Depending on how blocking and instancing works in Odyssey, I might switch to Space Engineers.

I really don't like the idea of having to patronize Valves/Steam though, and I don't think any game could cause me to break my sixteen year boycott of the platform.

There's no blocking in SE, no combat logging either. Ships continue to exist whether you're logged in the game or not - in fact, so does your character, who needs to climb into a cyropod before going offline so not to die. Losing a ship is hardcore, because there is no insurance, no rebuy, and on a multiplayer server, no "load from last save". It's pretty hard core!

Space Engineers is available on XBox, which makes me wonder if you could get it on PC using the built-in XBox store... I don't know how all this "play XBox games on your PC" stuff works.

 

[killerofstars]

I regret I only had one like to give your posts. You deserve a medal and a job well done for your efforts here in my opinion.

Honestly I think in most debates points are argued for the gallery. I don't want Frontier to do something silly and detrimental like adding the advanced maintenance feature again because people complain about their 'murrsion. IIRC when ship transfers were being discussed, originally it would have been a system where every ship you had was instantly available at any shipyard and player feedback made Frontier decide against it. I could be wrong on that one, but that's how I recall it.

Cheers mate. Hope to see you around.

 

[Morbad]

Blocking doesn't impose anything on you.

Of course it does. You don't need to block my CMDR to harm my game with your block.

You don't have rights to my sandbox, my instance, or my gametime.

You're either a complete hypocrite, or you don't know how blocking works. If you are in my instance (making it our instance) and either of us have someone blocked, they cannot enter that instance.

Let's say you, I, and killerofstars are all playing in the same RES. You and killerofstars wing up, then killerofstars leaves to rearm, with every intent of coming back to continue bounty hunting with you, or covering you while you mine, etc. But I've just blocked killerofstars (maybe I didn't want the competition in the RES, maybe I didn't like his name, maybe I plan on pirating you, maybe I want to be the only Cobra Mk IV in my universe, whatever) and they cannot return to this instance we are in. So, he drops in to an empty instance. Maybe it's a simple matter for you to leave and reinstance, maybe it's not, but it surely wastes your time figuring out what the issue is and resolving it. Regardless, I've just used block to impose myself on your game and your instance, without blocking you, for a completely frivolous reason, and unless both of you identify me as the source of your problems and both block me, I could well cause you two further trouble if I ever make it to an instance only one of you is in. Even if you do both block me, or I block both of you, we still exclude anyone else in our respective instances from encountering anyone in the other...and they are just bystanders, who none of us have targeted, who still have to play in accordance with our nonsense blacklists, even if they'd like to encounter us, or each other. That's how blocking works.

There's no blocking in SE, no combat logging either. Ships continue to exist whether you're logged in the game or not - in fact, so does your character, who needs to climb into a cyropod before going offline so not to die. Losing a ship is hardcore, because there is no insurance, no rebuy, and on a multiplayer server, no "load from last save". It's pretty hard core!

I know a few people that play it and these are the exact kind of mechanisms I enjoy in these games, which is why it's so tempting.

Space Engineers is available on XBox, which makes me wonder if you could get it on PC using the built-in XBox store... I don't know how all this "play XBox games on your PC" stuff works.

No Windows Store on my main system and I'm not keen on any Microsoft accounts. I'm very much a neo-Luddite when it comes to game marketplaces and distribution methods.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Of course it does. You don't need to block my CMDR to harm my game with your block.



You're either a complete hypocrite, or you don't know how blocking works. If you are in my instance (making it our instance) and either of us have someone blocked, they cannot enter that instance.

Let's say you, I, and killerofstars are all playing in the same RES. You and killerofstars wing up, then killerofstars leaves to rearm, with every intent of coming back to continue bounty hunting with you, or covering you while you mine, etc. But I've just blocked killerofstars (maybe I didn't want the competition in the RES, maybe I didn't like his name, maybe I plan on pirating you, maybe I want to be the only Cobra Mk IV in my universe, whatever) and they cannot return to this instance we are in. So, he drops in to an empty instance. Maybe it's a simple matter for you to leave and reinstance, maybe it's not, but it surely wastes your time figuring out what the issue is and resolving it. Regardless, I've just used block to impose myself on your game and your instance, without blocking you, for a completely frivolous reason, and unless both of you identify me as the source of your problems and both block me, I could well cause you two further trouble if I ever make it to an instance only one of you is in. Even if you do both block me, or I block both of you, we still exclude anyone else in our respective instances from encountering anyone in the other...and they are just bystanders, who none of us have targeted, who still have to play in accordance with our nonsense blacklists, even if they'd like to encounter us, or each other. That's how blocking works.

Sounds like an edge-case to me, one you naturally came up with to support your position. The fact is this highlights a problem with Wings, not blocking. Being in a wing with someone should necessarily always ensure both parties are in the same instance which is currently not the case unfortunately.

I know how blocking works and, while no system can be 100% perfect, it's a very novel and elegant solution to an ages old problem in gaming.

 

[Morbad]

You've been lecturing me and others about having real "consequences" in game for pages and pages now, so I don't understand.

My entire position has been predicated on contextuality. Blocking has zero in-setting/character context.

If you don't want players to block you, then don't kill them. Otherwise suffer a consequence of your bad behavior.

The idea that most blocks are due to 'kills', or that 'kills' are evidence of bad behavior, are both completely unfounded presumptions.

Sounds like an edge-case to me, one you naturally came up with to support your position.

Only if you think it's an edge-case to ever 'engage with others in the open world '. You cannot benefit from having someone blocked, without imposing that block on everyone present, and chances are that there will be others present in well trafficked areas.

The fact is this highlights a problem with Wings, not blocking. Being in a wing with someone should necessarily always ensure both parties are in the same instance which is currently not the case unfortunately.

Instances work on a first come, first serve, basis, and the functionality you desire here is completely impractical. The game cannot forcibly evict people from an instance to ensure a wing gets to stay together without blocked individuals being present.

Even if it were possible, not every one that wants the potential for interaction is going to know about, be able to fit in, or want to be part of, the same four person wing. Having to whitelist everyone you want to play with is what Private Group is for.

I know how blocking works

I'm sure you believe that, but there are logical fallacies in the interpretation you've put forward that convince me otherwise.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I don't want Frontier to do something silly and detrimental like adding the advanced maintenance feature again because people complain about their 'murrsion. IIRC when ship transfers were being discussed, originally it would have been a system where every ship you had was instantly available at any shipyard and player feedback made Frontier decide against it. I could be wrong on that one, but that's how I recall it.

As usual your "originally" design which was apparently changed because of player complaints comes in half way through the game.
The "original" design was largely comparable to what we have now.
FD then proposed instant travel something that they had been vocally dead set against up til that point. (Easier to implement from a coding view however)

Players then in their vast majority (over 70%) asked them to stick to their initial proposal and listed numerous reasons why fast travel ruined the game (such as completely and totally removing the need to ever travel across the bubble in anything other than a long range ship).

Part of the way ships are balanced is by jump range so instantly being able to call in a ship from anywhere is awful design. I believe it is important that getting your ship yourself should always be the fastest option, with ship transfer an option.
Much like if we must have auto pilot and auto docking it should not be more effective than a player actually doing it themselves.

It does not surprise me that you feel differently however.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Nothing to do with complaining. The old meta was earning one of the big three, because the game had nothing else for players to do. Engineering became the next meta, and buying a ship no longer needed to be a huge grind, because there was a new one. Notice how making money has gotten even easier recently as FD want people to focus on the current meta which is getting a fleet carrier. At some point getting a fleet carrier will become much easier as well I expect. It's all just shifting metas and making sure the player is occupied with new content.

Yes, but this sort of "progression" makes the game's content out of sync with the content. Small ships and the whole module system below A are mostly obsolete, it will be interesting to see how FDev will convince FC billionaires to land and FPS on foot...

 

[Brrokk]

..., it's a very novel and elegant solution to an ages old problem in gaming.

This. In multi-player games we've usually had to just put up with those who don't want to play but just stop others playing. We finally have a good solution; I expect it to catch on in the game industry. In fact this is already happening as consoles have it at platform level.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

This. In multi-player games we've usually had to just put up with those who don't want to play but just stop others playing. We finally have a good solution; I expect it to catch on in the game industry. In fact this is already happening as consoles have it at platform level.

I can't even list all the games I've played that needed this feature. Why waste millions of man hours on support staff and development time, not to mention the expense of seperate PVP and PVE servers, when you can just hand the community a simple self-help tool like this? It's brilliant!

 

[killerofstars]

As usual your "originally" design which was apparently changed because of player complaints comes in half way through the game.
The "original" design was largely comparable to what we have now.
FD then proposed instant travel something that they had been vocally dead set against up til that point. (Easier to implement from a coding view however)

Players then in their vast majority (over 70%) asked them to stick to their initial proposal and listed numerous reasons why fast travel ruined the game (such as completely and totally removing the need to ever travel across the bubble in anything other than a long range ship).

Part of the way ships are balanced is by jump range so instantly being able to call in a ship from anywhere is awful design. I believe it is important that getting your ship yourself should always be the fastest option, with ship transfer an option.
Much like if we must have auto pilot and auto docking it should not be more effective than a player actually doing it themselves.

It does not surprise me that you feel differently however.

Fast Travel and having your entire fleet available to you anywhere are two wildly different things. Fast travel is instant transport of the player. Nobody's arguing for that.

For ships, the ship transport times aren't limited by the ship's jump range. There is literally no gameplay benefit other than wasting the players real time (and credits) in transporting a ship. It seems like something they tested and realized there was no benefit to, but then the players asked for it.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Fast Travel and having your entire fleet available to you anywhere are two wildly different things. Fast travel is instant transport of the player. Nobody's arguing for that.

For ships, the ship transport times aren't limited by the ship's jump range. There is literally no gameplay benefit other than wasting the players real time (and credits) in transporting a ship. It seems like something they tested and realized there was no benefit to, but then the players asked for it.

What makes even less sense is we have to pay for the transportation. If you want to wait, it should be free. If you go with the pay option, it should be nearly instant or no more than a few minutes.

 

[Morbad]

There is literally no gameplay benefit other than wasting the players real time (and credits) in transporting a ship.

I strongly disagree with this. Logistical considerations are important constraints on many activities; instantaneous transport of ships/equipment diminishes that. Even having unattented ship transfers and increased jump ranges (from Engineering and synthesis) has significantly altered gameplay, and not universally for the better.

 

[Brrokk]

I strongly disagree with this. Logistical considerations are important constraints on many activities; instantaneous transport of ships/equipment diminishes that. Even having unattented ship transfers and increased jump ranges (from Engineering and synthesis) has significantly altered gameplay, and not universally for the better.

I agree. Logistics involving multiple ships with differing capabilities are an important part of gameplay.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I agree. Logistics involving multiple ships with differing capabilities are an important part of gameplay.

Sometimes I only have an hour or two to play and a ship transfer alone can take over an hour. People complain about "noobaconda's" being everywhere and smaller ships not feeling more viable? This is one of the biggest reasons for that. Transfers take too long, traveling back to that kitted ship definitely takes too long, so I spend all my time in my biggest best ship that can do everything I need it to do wherever I go.