Small Ships are often overlooked

[Sybine]

A lot of people here are talking about PVP combat, but I´d like to focus a little on PVE combat. Playind some PVP I agree that small ships can handle big ships, specially noob big ships, BUT... PVE combat?? of course NOT. And here I have a big problem with ED, love this game since Beta, owner of a lifetime pass, I´ve played a few hours as u can see, but the PVE combat still remains "stupid" for me. love to fly small-medium ships, so the problem is when I get interdicted (for example) and there´s a Conda shooting at me. Sometimes it is Competent, maybe dangerous, so ok, I can handle the situation and kill it with some effort, but if it´s Elite, or just engineered, holy crap, and here comes the big problem: Why the hell I CAN´T get to its tail?? All big ships in PVE combat turns like a viper, always looking at me. that way it´s impossible to escape from the fire.

With a lower range of gimballed/turret weapons game would be a lot more fun! or just make the big ships slower, speaking in terms of turning. As I said, I´m not new in game, so I have a lot of ships, played different kind of mechanics, but the most ridiculous is to pilot my Cutter. I can face every ship in game!! There´s no way a ship can get on my tail, or blind spot, because one of the biggest ship in game turns like a medium ship. The big ships are slow, no top speed, and thats good, well done, but please... we need to slow down the turning speed, so small/medium ships have their place in a combat zone for example.
I don´t know you, but I can assume none of you (there´s always a crazy pilot) enters a conflict zone on an Eagle, Cobra, etc. All of us, after all the engineers stuff, have learnt the IA is stupid, but OP, so we take our big ships into battle and click the fire button while facing them until destruction.

I repeat, I´m not talking about PVP, I know that´s a different world, but I love PVE, and hate the combat system, just because I cannot get the benefits of piloting a small ship. (Agility and speed). Doing a dogfight vs a big ship is ridiculous, because the big ship still shoots me even while it is turning around (thanks to turrets or gimballed) and prevents every movement I make with my small ship, so It´s practically impossible to get behind the enemy. (except harmless... those don´t know even we are shooting at them...)

Please, this is just my oppinion, but I´d love to hear from you about PVE combat in small ships. Maybe I´m an old player, but just a noob

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

A lot of people here are talking about PVP combat, but I´d like to focus a little on PVE combat. Playind some PVP I agree that small ships can handle big ships, specially noob big ships, BUT... PVE combat?? of course NOT. And here I have a big problem with ED, love this game since Beta, owner of a lifetime pass, I´ve played a few hours as u can see, but the PVE combat still remains "stupid" for me. love to fly small-medium ships, so the problem is when I get interdicted (for example) and there´s a Conda shooting at me. Sometimes it is Competent, maybe dangerous, so ok, I can handle the situation and kill it with some effort, but if it´s Elite, or just engineered, holy crap, and here comes the big problem: Why the hell I CAN´T get to its tail?? All big ships in PVE combat turns like a viper, always looking at me. that way it´s impossible to escape from the fire.

With a lower range of gimballed/turret weapons game would be a lot more fun! or just make the big ships slower, speaking in terms of turning. As I said, I´m not new in game, so I have a lot of ships, played different kind of mechanics, but the most ridiculous is to pilot my Cutter. I can face every ship in game!! There´s no way a ship can get on my tail, or blind spot, because one of the biggest ship in game turns like a medium ship. The big ships are slow, no top speed, and thats good, well done, but please... we need to slow down the turning speed, so small/medium ships have their place in a combat zone for example.
I don´t know you, but I can assume none of you (there´s always a crazy pilot) enters a conflict zone on an Eagle, Cobra, etc. All of us, after all the engineers stuff, have learnt the IA is stupid, but OP, so we take our big ships into battle and click the fire button while facing them until destruction.

I repeat, I´m not talking about PVP, I know that´s a different world, but I love PVE, and hate the combat system, just because I cannot get the benefits of piloting a small ship. (Agility and speed). Doing a dogfight vs a big ship is ridiculous, because the big ship still shoots me even while it is turning around (thanks to turrets or gimballed) and prevents every movement I make with my small ship, so It´s practically impossible to get behind the enemy. (except harmless... those don´t know even we are shooting at them...)

Please, this is just my oppinion, but I´d love to hear from you about PVE combat in small ships. Maybe I´m an old player, but just a noob

Guess it depends on ship frame, but, say, with my Eagle or iCourier (which doesn't have any weapons lol) I can stay on tail of any large Elite ranked ship all day. Lateral thrusters with occasional FA/off plus boost turning does miracles. Yes, turrets do hit me some, but well engineered hull can still take these hits without much of a fuss, as well low MJ but resist stacked small Bi-Weave, for example. Staying behind means you won't be eating any PAs in the face, so it's good. The main problem is that you have to have some titanic patience for these kinds of fights, since taking them down takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r... I run triple engineered Frag build on my Eagle, easily breaking 400 DPS, but they keep popping those cell banks non stop with their massive shields, and when I break through, even under corrosion, chipping off at hull takes another forever and sometimes (rarely though, because they lose drives soon after I break shields) they manage to run... When I engage same target in my Krait II, I murder them before they can blink, they can't regen shield, and I have plenty ammo for at least 10 more like that after the fight. That's really my only problem.

 

[Sybine]

Guess it depends on ship frame, but, say, with my Eagle or iCourier (which doesn't have any weapons lol) I can stay on tail of any large Elite ranked ship all day. Lateral thrusters with occasional FA/off plus boost turning does miracles. Yes, turrets do hit me some, but well engineered hull can still take these hits without much of a fuss, as well low MJ but resist stacked small Bi-Weave, for example. Staying behind means you won't be eating any PAs in the face, so it's good. The main problem is that you have to have some titanic patience for these kinds of fights, since taking them down takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r... I run triple engineered Frag build on my Eagle, easily breaking 400 DPS, but they keep popping those cell banks non stop with their massive shields, and when I break through, even under corrosion, chipping off at hull takes another forever and sometimes (rarely though, because they lose drives soon after I break shields) they manage to run... When I engage same target in my Krait II, I murder them before they can blink, they can't regen shield, and I have plenty ammo for at least 10 more like that after the fight. That's really my only problem.

Thanks a lot!, I´ll try new builds, maybe it´s just my fault. I have to focus a little on NPC combat, and inspect new techniques, but my overall thinking, after reading you, is that small ships have no place in conflict zones, and it´s sad, I´d love to see a lot of commanders with a high variety of ships, maybe wings of one big "brute force" shooting everything against another big ship and 3 wing commanders in small / medium ships protecting it´s back from enemy small ships. That would be a real "roleplaying" for everyone.

 

[MJC]

but my overall thinking, after reading you, is that small ships have no place in conflict zones, and it´s sad, I´d love to see a lot of commanders with a high variety of ships,

Also dont forget that NPC's ignore silent running. Doesn't help small ships at all and heavily favours shield tanks.
Would be interesting if NPC's were equipped with reverb. cascade mines or torps. I can already imagine the angry forum threads if FD dared to do this...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Thanks a lot!, I´ll try new builds, maybe it´s just my fault. I have to focus a little on NPC combat, and inspect new techniques, but my overall thinking, after reading you, is that small ships have no place in conflict zones, and it´s sad, I´d love to see a lot of commanders with a high variety of ships, maybe wings of one big "brute force" shooting everything against another big ship and 3 wing commanders in small / medium ships protecting it´s back from enemy small ships. That would be a real "roleplaying" for everyone.

We can blame the power creep for that. Before engineers more ships were viable to do CZs

 

[Darth Ender]

big ships are super agile because Fdev hasn't rebalanced them since SLF's were introduced.

Turrets and SLF's need to be relied upon by bigger ships to deal with smaller ships. Smaller ships need their buff to damage eliminated when it's against bigger ships.

A small ship should require greater numbers to take out bigger ships. Their default behavior should be to run (and be able to evade).

But in general, small ships are overlooked because the game doesn't give you any incentive to use them. All means of wealth improvement rely on ship size scale (either in cargo space, or jump distance, or hardpoint count) to scale wealth potential. The game mechanics have no means of skill based reward that could be tailored to favor certain ship choices in certain scenarios.

 

[Jace Harriman]

A few days late to the party here, but I think the simplest "solution" for small ships is to make it a matter of convenience.

I really like the idea of settlements only having a small landing pad. These aren't fully-fledged starports, so it makes sense story-wise that they'd have the space equivalent of a helipad - as opposed to a private airfield or full-on airport. But these locations are on planets, and we can land our ships anywhere. We already land on planets and drive to settlements/outposts in an SRV. So why not build on that?

Let small ships land directly on the doorstep of these settlements. Let them get pulled into a bay where their ship is safe from attack, where (narratively speaking) ground crew or automation "instantly" unload the cargo for them, where passengers can disembark directly, where they can hand in courier missions through a computer screen, all the convenience factors we're used to. But, they have all the classic small ship limitations in terms of cargo, loadout, and how much they can multitask.

Meanwhile, let medium and large ships park outside. Let the Commander walk or drive from the outskirts to the nearest airlock or garage, walk inside, and hand over their courier data or exploration data or what-have-you directly on some kind of futuristic USB stick. Give us a new SRV with more than the Scarab's two ton(ne)s of cargo space, so that we can ferry cargo from our parked medium/large ship to the designated drop-off point. Give us an SRV that functions like the minibus at an airport, so we can drive our passengers from the plane to the terminal. It builds off the same mechanics that the game already uses, but flipped upsidedown: instead of a supply mission taking you more trips in a small ship than a large, offloading the cargo takes more trips in a large than a small... but the tradeoff is that you can stack multiple missions in a larger ship. Both ends of the spectrum have their pros and cons, you're essentially choosing whether you want to spend more time flying (multiple interstellar trips in a small ship), or more time driving (more cargo moving in a large ship).

I could see a similar mechanic reflected back into the base game as well. Let large ships offload cargo at an Outpost using limpets, or an SLF option that's for cargo transfer, something like that: some sort of system that requires a large ship to sit and wait at the edge of an Outpost's "request docking clearance" range, and wait while their cargo is unloaded automagically. Maybe even give them the option to resupply and refuel, but with the time sink of having to wait for a limpet or shuttle or what-have-you to go back and forth a few times. Make it possible to do, but have it require patience - in the same way that doing a large cargo mission via small/medium ship requires the patience of multiple trips.

For me, that's one of the joys of Elite. You can go mining in an Adder. You can fight an Anaconda in a Viper. You can kick ass in a DBS. I'm sure there's someone out there who goes bounty hunting in a Hauler just for the hell of it. It's the built-in antidote to the idea of best-in-meta ships, and IMO as long as there's some sort of time/patience balance involved, the more ways FDev gives us to play our own way even if (especially if) it isn't the most sensible or efficient, the better. With so many ways to make credits and farm mats if you choose to, the only currency in this game that really matters is time/attention, so I think that's probably the best place for things to be balanced.

 

[Rat Catcher]

A few days late to the party here

Idle slacker! Sitting back while all of us are wearing our fingers out discussing small ship lunacy, you should be hanging your head in despondent shame!

I really like your planetside port description, it makes sense in game 'lore' well enough.

My feeling is that these are some of us are looking again at the ships we should have stayed longer in, but progress...

Hehe, Hauler....
Hunky Hauler

I Bounty Hunt in the Courier for other small / med NPC ships quite happily - provided it is only for one or two at once, I even got the shields down on an Anaconda once, then pressed the boost forgetting to turn away in time...

 

[Jace Harriman]

Idle slacker! Sitting back while all of us are wearing our fingers out discussing small ship lunacy, you should be hanging your head in despondent shame!

Not slacking! Wrestling with a Stardew Valley relapse, there's a subtle difference!

I really like your approach of going back and revisiting the ships that you whooshed past on your way up the ladder. Part of me wishes I'd spent longer in my Hauler and Adder. I love the space shuttle / Venture Star vibes that the Zorgon Peterson ships give off, and it's unfortunate that there isn't anything that carries that torch in a larger size. (Maybe that's where all this Core Dynamics / Lakon business is going, who knows)

Also, I love the look of the Imperial Courier, but given the Gutamaya vibes of the Playstation 5, I can't bring myself to own anything Imperial on PC.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Also, I love the look of the Imperial Courier

I have the Cutter - it hauls cargo to and from stations and FC - is all I want to do with it.

Now the Courier is the ship I bought, played with, kept (along with my first T-6) from that moment - and now have 4 on 1 account and 3 on the other (none available in Colonia )
because they are crazy once engineering happens (and not particularly sane without engineering) - I've managed to forget the 'Imperial' bit of its title...

The ship kit is pretty too, although if a Raider kit turned up my Arx would get friction burns leaving my account...

I make up for by py-rat-ing in a Challenger though... (It is fun with 3 Cytos and the rest cannons)

Just look the other way when clicking "buy"...

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Thanks a lot!, I´ll try new builds, maybe it´s just my fault. I have to focus a little on NPC combat, and inspect new techniques, but my overall thinking, after reading you, is that small ships have no place in conflict zones, and it´s sad, I´d love to see a lot of commanders with a high variety of ships, maybe wings of one big "brute force" shooting everything against another big ship and 3 wing commanders in small / medium ships protecting it´s back from enemy small ships. That would be a real "roleplaying" for everyone.

My personal combat zone ship of choice when it comes to CGs in Open is the Courier. Because of its speed you can get in and out, you don't have to solo enemy ships so damage output isn't a problem (though a CZ might take longer to complete), while you can easily dodge enemy players due to them being in much slower ships (unless they also fly a Courier, which is rare). Vulture is very good too, and I've even taken shieldless Viper 4s into battle. Cobra 3 also works pretty well, and if you want to feel like Luke Skywalker then Eagle/iEagle is viable but you really need to be able to fly evasively.

Situational awareness really is key, and knowing when to (temporarily) retreat and regroup. Definitely not more efficient vs medium/large ships, but certainly more fun and intense.

I would actually argue the other way around, small ships aren't really viable in PvP if you're up against meta builds, because even if you could fly evasively enough not to get one shotted, the ridiculous health pools possible mean you won't have even remotely enough damage output to harm them, and they can always just wake out instead (source: I mostly fly small ships in PvP encounters as I don't take it all too seriously and don't go beyond a bit of fooling around i.e. I don't aim to win a fight, not even remotely).

 

[Jace Harriman]

Just look the other way when clicking "buy"...

Back, vile temptress!

I'm probably going to end up with a second PC account at some point, so that I can start from scratch on foot in Odyssey and see how that plays out. I may end up remaking my Imperial alt there instead... the self-inflicted challenge of only allowing myself to buy Imperial ships feels like a fun way to focus my goals for that account. Being stuck with the iEagle and iCourier for a while is certainly one way to force some small ship content on myself!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Back, vile temptress!

Well, being a complete rogue (2 actually) does give me the benefit of having whatever tool does the job in hand

 

[Sybine]

I know it´s some kind of forbidden thing to talk about Star Citizen, but to be honest, I´m not a fanboy of anything, so let me speak for those who don´t play SC:
In SC you can buy (literally) a big ship, and it can be a really dangerous ship, BUT, and here is where the fun comes, you need players if you want your turrets to shoot. Pilot can usually manage some small hardpoints, shooting straight, no more.
The turrets in the ship have to be manually occupied and aimed. I know, I know, a lot of people play solo, and they don´t want to play with friends, ok, got it, but SC has the real concept of Big Ship working. I can´t understand at this point why FD hasn´t changed that concept for ED. Multicrew looks like an early access game at this point, so I hope Oddyssey brings more multicrew options in ships.

One possible solution I though was simple: Why don´t turreted/gimballed have some limitation if you play solo?? Or just can use the half of them?? That way multicrew have a place in ED. Every Wing prefers to fly 2 Cutters instead a 2people crew in one Cutter... why?? Because the same pilot can fly a Sidewinder, or a Cutter (more easy to kill with the Cutter...) with no difference in difficulty. (except landing of course).

Let´s think about medium ships, multirole ships for example: Krait Phantom, one of my favourites. Can u think a "real" multicrew on that ship?? Would be awesome, because you have a fast ship, not much armor, not much shields, so players would need to manage the ship really well to complete missions. One of them is the helm of course, and can shoot straight with some G1 Fixed weapons. And the second on board can manage shields, whith the extra pip, and control the extra G2 hardpoints, even chaff, heat sink, etc. The reason I´m speaking about this is because It don´t mind if I play solo on my K-Phantom to have just 2 available weapons, and this, and only THIS, would be the perfect reason to leave the Krait and get into a Viper, Courier, etc. This way EVERY ship would have a place in game. The Adder has multicrew!! Would be awesome to see more of them around.

Yes, yes, some of you will think: just go to SC! Scum!... I don´t like SC more than ED, but I´m not married with any, so I can enjoy a lot of things of ED, and a lot of things of SC. And the ONLY reason I hate ED is the multicrew/combat system... totally useless, so muuuch potential.

Thansk for reading all this crap, and let me hear about your thoughts about this idea of limiting the "possibilities" of medium/big ships in solo playing.

P.D. If you are a real SOLO player, FD can activate the entire ship for you if you select SOLO in the main menu, it´s a solution... But would be awesome for those who seek a more real experience, it´s unbelievable one pilot managing a Cutter or a Corvette, even a Phython!

 

[badibeat]

P.D. If you are a real SOLO player, FD can activate the entire ship for you if you select SOLO in the main menu, it´s a solution... But would be awesome for those who seek a more real experience, it´s unbelievable one pilot managing a Cutter or a Corvette, even a Phython!

What is unbelievable to me is the requirement of humans, as AI is already becoming better at everything, all around us. In 2021.
Take that monkey out of the jet and you get a faster, lighter, more agile drone that can have G-forces which would kill the monkey.
Surely some AI should be capable to control the servos and zip those pesky smalls with the bottom large tower of my Vette...

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Scout =/= bad
No idea why people avoid the DBS. It's a really cool ship. Fast, extremely maneuverable and with some imagination it can pack a really heavy punch while still managing to keep outside enemy line of fire.

I use this build on my DBS for pirate assassination missions (i usually replace the interdictor with another mrp)
And since they usually come in Condas or Corvettes, it makes for some really nice fights.
FDLs are a bit more tricky since they have rather big shields, are faster and have a much smaller profile than a Conda. Still they are fun to play with, trying to keep within 600m to strip them shieldless with those nasty cytos

It is quite simple for me.

Even in combat I still have at least 16t cargo. Trust me, that stuff is (sometimes literally) gold when you fight pirates and they dump their stolen cargo.

Cobra is best pirate ship, even if you only pirate pirates.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I know it´s some kind of forbidden thing to talk about Star Citizen, but to be honest, I´m not a fanboy of anything, so let me speak for those who don´t play SC:
In SC you can buy (literally) a big ship, and it can be a really dangerous ship, BUT, and here is where the fun comes, you need players if you want your turrets to shoot. Pilot can usually manage some small hardpoints, shooting straight, no more.
The turrets in the ship have to be manually occupied and aimed. I know, I know, a lot of people play solo, and they don´t want to play with friends, ok, got it, but SC has the real concept of Big Ship working. I can´t understand at this point why FD hasn´t changed that concept for ED. Multicrew looks like an early access game at this point, so I hope Oddyssey brings more multicrew options in ships.

One possible solution I though was simple: Why don´t turreted/gimballed have some limitation if you play solo?? Or just can use the half of them?? That way multicrew have a place in ED. Every Wing prefers to fly 2 Cutters instead a 2people crew in one Cutter... why?? Because the same pilot can fly a Sidewinder, or a Cutter (more easy to kill with the Cutter...) with no difference in difficulty. (except landing of course).

Let´s think about medium ships, multirole ships for example: Krait Phantom, one of my favourites. Can u think a "real" multicrew on that ship?? Would be awesome, because you have a fast ship, not much armor, not much shields, so players would need to manage the ship really well to complete missions. One of them is the helm of course, and can shoot straight with some G1 Fixed weapons. And the second on board can manage shields, whith the extra pip, and control the extra G2 hardpoints, even chaff, heat sink, etc. The reason I´m speaking about this is because It don´t mind if I play solo on my K-Phantom to have just 2 available weapons, and this, and only THIS, would be the perfect reason to leave the Krait and get into a Viper, Courier, etc. This way EVERY ship would have a place in game. The Adder has multicrew!! Would be awesome to see more of them around.

Yes, yes, some of you will think: just go to SC! Scum!... I don´t like SC more than ED, but I´m not married with any, so I can enjoy a lot of things of ED, and a lot of things of SC. And the ONLY reason I hate ED is the multicrew/combat system... totally useless, so muuuch potential.

Thansk for reading all this crap, and let me hear about your thoughts about this idea of limiting the "possibilities" of medium/big ships in solo playing.

P.D. If you are a real SOLO player, FD can activate the entire ship for you if you select SOLO in the main menu, it´s a solution... But would be awesome for those who seek a more real experience, it´s unbelievable one pilot managing a Cutter or a Corvette, even a Phython!

Well even modern warships have highly automated weapon systems, you do not need people manning say Vulcan-Phalanx turret. So having somebody to physically aim say turreted weapons in 3300's is kind of anachronistic...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well even modern warships have highly automated weapon systems, you do not need people manning say Vulcan-Phalanx turret. So having somebody to physically aim say turreted weapons in 3300's is kind of anachronistic...

Expecting the full turret complement to be manned by players in 2021 is just as well. It's like people don't have anything better to do than sit in a turret during their game time. Like e.g. fly their own spaceships. Multicrew does have its audience - but it's limited.

 

[Oytis57]

I make up for by py-rat-ing in a Challenger though... (It is fun with 3 Cytos and the rest cannons)

Don't steal my ideas you cheater! Have to have a talk with the "other" Peter...

 

[Craith]

I fly small ships a lot, mostly the eagle mk II - I just like its looks, its handling, its speed. I don't mind going to CZs in it, but depending on my aim and enemies encountered I might need to synth ammo.

I've also flown non-engineered Viper 3s into CZs, they are tough little buggers and can deal good damage with rails & plasma accelerators.

I'm also quite fond of the Cobra MK IV, either as a lazy all gimballed MC build (lots of DAKKA!) or with all rails (a tad hot at times, but the module reinforcement is there for a reason)

I often use the DBX when I go and help others with the guardian sites, because of its jump range, I also have an Eagle for exploration - of course it has only half the range of the DBX, but 34 LYs is still not bad, and the supercruise agility is great

My gauge for combat builds is usually the NPC Elite Anaconda - if it can't defeat it (in a timely manner), it is not good enough. I do fear that the Hauler build we had floating around our discord these days would probably take to long to kill it to be worth it.