Proposal Discussion Anti Botting Agreement Idea 3.1 Player incentivised, VR compatible in-station "not-a-literal-Captcha"

[Just Paul]

Nobody truly knows how the BGS work. At this point it's like what people tell you about quantum mechanics... if you claim to understand the whole of it, it means youi don't.

The work people like Goemon do, people like Ian Doncaster do, or people like Jane Turner do, is what gives us the best current understanding of it, but it doesn't mean anyone has cracked the code and knows everything about it.

This is what I'm saying. Not everything what smells like bots is bots as even with the combined knowledge from everybody you mentioned and others we only understand parts of all the different interactions. I would even say we are far from really understanding how the different buckets and inputs into them interact with each other.
Somebody like @Riverside, who doesn't just copy things or reads up on them, will have a very different understanding on how the things interact and what works together in certain situation. It would look like botting to somebody who doesn't have that knowledge.
I believe FDev have a really good handle on how the different buckets interact and how the bgs works as a whole, contrary to how they act and/or what they say officially. The public knowledge, thanks to everybody sharing it, scratches just the surface of what is possible. Add to that some intel and understanding how your opposition thinks and works and a small group can not only hold a much larger defensivly but fight back and put them on the backfoot at the same time.

Again I'm not saying there are no bots, but I'm still questioning if it's such a widespread issue to warrant the witch hunt which will happen.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

If you can't trust the referee find another pitch to play your game on imo.

How is this consistent with the narrative that bots are not an issue, when evidence points out that frontier did take action against this back in the day?

What's more, is that these same accounts that evidence points out recieved temporary (and sometimes permanent) bans, are still active today and can be traced back to the botting issue that we're bringing forth today?

The narrative that you're putting out just simply isn't consistent with what's been happening in reality. Furthermore dismissing the very real issue of botting because "actually I am so so good at BGS that people constantly accuse me of botting so this means botting is not a thing" is not the hill I'd choose to die on either.

Sometimes you see a joker trying to be funny by parking in the middle of a station with infinite shields and the station's lasers shooting him for 20 minutes (not docked, just in the air) and if they don't get banned because of incompetence or inaction from FDev I won't say "well, that obviously means they were not cheating", I'll say "that obviously means they don't care".

 

[Riverside]

How is this consistent with the narrative that bots are not an issue, when evidence points out that frontier did take action against this back in the day?

My argument is that it's not endemic, not widespread. Not enough of an issue that the game needs to change in such a way that humans have to prove they are human. Any hypothetical bot will be managed by a player or team of players that can pass any 'are you a robot' test you or I can.

People cheat all the time, sometimes I sell bounties for Anarchy factions from killing 'tasty cargo' custom spawned pirates that interdict me. I know it's a bug, it's widely reported too (unlike the 5-for-1 exploit) and I'm happy to take advantage until it is fixed. Frontier clearly put that bug at a low priority (understandably too, it isn't game breaking). I think this issue of botting is too, considering how much automation of territory management from scraped data goes on. That is endemic, everybody uses it.

Remove the logs & loads of people will lose out, including any hypothetical botter but not me, I just play the damned game & if it stops being fun because try-hards make it grindy I do something else. And if someone proposes a change that will make my game less fun I'll state my alternate argument.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

My argument is that it's not endemic. Not enough of an issue that the game needs to change in such a way that humans have to prove they are human. Any hypothetical bot will be managed by a player or team of players that can pass any 'are you a robot' test you or I can.

People cheat all the time, sometimes I sell bounties for Anarchy factions from killing 'tasty cargo' custom spawned pirates that interdict me. I know it's a bug, it's widely reported too (unlike the 5-for-1 exploit) and I'm happy to take advantage until it is fixed. Frontier clearly put that bug at a low priority (understandably too, it isn't game breaking). I think this issue of botting is too, considering how much automation of territory management from scraped data goes on. That is endemic, but everybody uses it.

Remove the logs & loads of people will lose out, including any hypothetical botter but not me, I just play the damned game & if it stops being fun because try-hards make it grindy I do something else. And if someone proposes a change that will make my game less fun I'll state my alternate argument.

It's not endemic, clearly Yuri Grom being botted and 5C'd to death for 6 months straight isn't an issue. in case you've ever wondered why the pilots abandoned grom after losing a vote 20% to 80% in the 5C game.

The problem I have with this is that we ourselves have been saying it isn't endemic. There aren't thousands of CMDR's using bots in their computers, there's probably a handful.

The big problem is that this handful of commanders are capable of bringing entire PP powers to their knees as well as any squadron in the game. The reason this is a big deal isn't because there are many many many people using this gun, it's that there's a few people with access to this weapon and they can and have done incredible damage with it in the past, continue to do it as we speak and will definitely continue to do it in the future, unless something is done about it.

And for the record it doesn't have to be "captchas" or anything that would inconvenience the counless commanders in this thread that have continuously expressed they don't care.

 

[Kelster87]

After reading all of this I'm left with a few thoughts..

Are there bots in game? Based on some things I've seen in 'other places', I'd have to say that, yes, there are. I'm not convinced they are such an issue that major changes need to be made to the game in order to combat it. And no, allegedly having 17k signatories to an Anti-Bot agreement is not evidence, not on it's own.

And my other though was this.. It occurs to me that some of my play could look exactly like a bot. I run missions between Exphiay and Canopus to farm Mats, all using SC and ADC, minimal hands on flying apparent. All looks very automated, at least at the station ends, sometimes my course change after dropping in isn't so neat.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Why should players have to prove they are not bots?

I would be interested to hear how you might suggest the bots prove they aren't players instead

 

[Riverside]

It's not endemic, clearly Yuri Grom being botted and 5C'd to death for 6 months straight isn't an issue. in case you've ever wondered why the pilots abandoned grom after losing a vote 20% to 80% in the 5C game.

The situation you describe will no doubt have been reported, and FDev will have looked at it (or had ample opportunity to do so), made a decision on whether it was cheating or not, and acted (or taken no action if it wasn't cheating). The existing 'report problems to Frontier' caters for that already. No changes required.

 

[Leadfoot]

btw, still waiting for proof that there is an issue with bots.

I believe I provided that. Might have been missed in all the clutter:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-a-literal-captcha.564659/page-5#post-8936468
It's an article on Sagittarius Eye. Displays the bot activity concerning the BGS and it's effect on how players must overcome their actions.

https://www.sagittarius-eye.com/downloads/archive/#issue18

Article is on "Ghost Ships" and shows some rather interesting evidence.

 

[Alien]

I believe I provided that. Might have been missed in all the clutter:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-a-literal-captcha.564659/page-5#post-8936468
It's an article on Sagittarius Eye. Displays the bot activity concerning the BGS and it's effect on how players must overcome their actions.

https://www.sagittarius-eye.com/downloads/archive/#issue18

Article is on "Ghost Ships" and shows some rather interesting evidence.

No, you provided a link to an article in SagEye that is complete fiction. It's written from an in-game perspective, not an out-of-game perspective. Not once in that article is Frontier Developments mentioned. The Pilot's Federation is mentioned, Lave Radio is even mentioned as an in-game group. That article is no more evidence of bots being used than Drew Wagar's 2 books based in the Elite Dangerous universe.

Do Better.

 

[Jmanis]

No, you provided a link to an article in SagEye that is complete fiction. It's written from an in-game perspective, not an out-of-game perspective. Not once in that article is Frontier Developments mentioned. The Pilot's Federation is mentioned, Lave Radio is even mentioned as an-game group. That article is no more evidence of bots being used than Drew Wagar's 2 books based in the Elite Dangerous universe.

Do Better.

Was actually interesting to read... I'd probably look like a bot, based on the evidence in that XD

 

[Kelster87]

Was actually interesting to read... I'd probably look like a bot, based on the evidence in that XD

I made that point earlier, but no one seems to want to touch it..

 

[Jmanis]

I made that point earlier, but no one seems to want to touch it..

Shh, don't let the truth get in the way of a lynch mob.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's not endemic, clearly Yuri Grom being botted and 5C'd to death for 6 months straight isn't an issue. in case you've ever wondered why the pilots abandoned grom after losing a vote 20% to 80% in the 5C game.

The problem I have with this is that we ourselves have been saying it isn't endemic. There aren't thousands of CMDR's using bots in their computers, there's probably a handful.

The big problem is that this handful of commanders are capable of bringing entire PP powers to their knees as well as any squadron in the game. The reason this is a big deal isn't because there are many many many people using this gun, it's that there's a few people with access to this weapon and they can and have done incredible damage with it in the past, continue to do it as we speak and will definitely continue to do it in the future, unless something is done about it.

And for the record it doesn't have to be "captchas" or anything that would inconvenience the counless commanders in this thread that have continuously expressed they don't care.

You have to be careful with your definitions- an exploit or bad design is not to be mixed up in this for Powerplay.

5C does not need bots. All you need to do is pledge and work from the inside- not to mention a long time ago Grom was quite happy to mow down people using AFK PG turretboat wings.

Its why I want FD to redesign Powerplay and make 5C difficult to do. Its possible, Sandros proposed weighting change would be a massive help. I've proposed changes as well that would remove 5C activity in one cycle (i.e. if you do defined 'bad' moves enough you are automatically unpledged).

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

You have to be careful with your definitions- an exploit or bad design is not to be mixed up in this for Powerplay.

5C does not need bots. All you need to do is pledge and work from the inside- not to mention a long time ago Grom was quite happy to mow down people using AFK PG turretboat wings.

Its why I want FD to redesign Powerplay and make 5C difficult to do. Its possible, Sandros proposed weighting change would be a massive help. I've proposed changes as well that would remove 5C activity in one cycle (i.e. if you do defined 'bad' moves enough you are automatically unpledged).

Oh yeah definitely, 5C is easily done without automation. So yes, it shouldn't be mixed in as the same thing. However it's important to note that the same bots who ravaged their BGS (and we caught a whiff, because we were in the middle of the crossfire) also participated in the 5C against Grom.

not to mention a long time ago Grom was quite happy to mow down people using AFK PG turretboat wings.

I've heard this too, but I'm not talking about whether anyone had it coming, tbh. That is something I won't make a comment on... I was more talking on how big of a problem it is, because first they brought the Alliance to their knees and then they basically deleted Grom.

The comment was more aimed at the people who think it's just not that big of a deal. I'm here like b... of course it is a big deal, look at what they've accomplished already.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I made that point earlier, but no one seems to want to touch it..

In truth it's not a good point... people think they look like bots, they don't. While y'all are stuck thinking whether or not the lynch mob would go after them because they use supercruise assist everyone else is unaware of their existence. Playing repetitively isn't exactly what's at play here.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Oh yeah definitely, 5C is easily done without automation. So yes, it shouldn't be mixed in as the same thing. However it's important to note that the same bots who ravaged their BGS (and we caught a whiff, because we were in the middle of the crossfire) also participated in the 5C against Grom.

One would not exclude the other, certainly. In both cases FD need to design out the problem so that casual exploitation can't be a thing.

I've heard this too, but I'm not talking about whether anyone had it coming, tbh. That is something I won't make a comment on... I was more talking on how big of a problem it is, because first they brought the Alliance to their knees and then they basically deleted Grom.

The comment was more aimed at the people who think it's just not that big of a deal. I'm here like b... of course it is a big deal, look at what they've accomplished already.

And again its something that can be designed out- we have one solution in game already (new CZ mechanics) its FD actually applying them.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

One would not exclude the other, certainly. In both cases FD need to design out the problem so that casual exploitation can't be a thing.



And again its something that can be designed out- we have one solution in game already (new CZ mechanics) its FD actually applying them.

I agree, turret boats are an issue that plague powerplay and simply making the CZ's look more like the normal ones would inconvenience the afk turret boats a lot. 5C is also a problem by design, more than cheating.

That being said, again, it's not just real players taking advantage of such design flaws, that is part of the point.

 

[Jmanis]

In truth it's not a good point... people think they look like bots, they don't. While y'all are stuck thinking whether or not the lynch mob would go after them because they use supercruise assist everyone else is unaware of their existence. Playing repetitively isn't exactly what's at play here.

Then what else is at play? Because everything being played so far wouldn't make a distinction.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I agree, turret boats are an issue that plague powerplay and simply making the CZ's look more like the normal ones would inconvenience the afk turret boats a lot. 5C is also a problem by design, more than cheating.

That being said, again, it's not just real players taking advantage of such design flaws, that is part of the point.

And why really all of this is in FDs court to fix. They have the answers- they had them two years ago along with solutions now. Its why I badger them so much

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

And why really all of this is in FDs court to fix. They have the answers- they had them two years ago along with solutions now. Its why I badger them so much

Aye, well, this whole initiative wouldn't exist if they were going around fixing what needs fixing. It's born out of inaction. If they can help us help them, it's a win for everyone, imo.