Proposal Discussion Anti Botting Agreement Idea 3.1 Player incentivised, VR compatible in-station "not-a-literal-Captcha"

Thats a weird answer. Why would you equate this to real life? Its a video game. The two things are not the same.

But they can be used for the same, thing, to stalk, harass, bully and in other ways to be mean to someone just because you are annoyed by something they did.

What platform is used not matter. So if you are ok for this happen in a game, then I expect you to be ok with this being done outside the game aswell.
 
Its mostly what you thought only the data comes from Eddn or whatever its called directly. So the information you see on inara is also available to you or anyone else in bulk if you want it.

It is useful. I am going to try and pull some down myself and look at it to make my own mind clearer.

EDDN is one part, you also have all the other external tools that you can connect too. Most people I know turned all 3rd party plug-ins off because of it. Who want's to be tracked their every move in the game? There is also in-game data which is used for analyzing what the other side is doing, you can't turn that one off and it works especially well against smaller groups. The author of the 3rd bgs-botting thread told me all about it. One source by itself might not be that bad, but if you put all the different ones together and run some data analysis on it you can not only unmask to a high certainty the CMDR behind the data, but also predict what they are doing and what you need to do to counter it very easily. Just sent your human bgs drones to there the bot points to and all is good. If the data is no longer there, people just stop using the plug-ins, the out-of-game bots lose precision and things get a little murkier again. Of course there is also the issue that some people rest on their laurels and are now left behind on what is possible in playing the bgs.
 
I would like to clarify some misconception here - EDDN network used by third party tools serves purely for distributing data like market listings, outfitting, influence of minor factions in the systems, some exploration stuff and so on. All entries are anonymized and there is not possible to track anybody or his/her actions via it. Disabling EDDN updates in tools like EDMC, EDDI, EDDiscovery, etc. will cause just the only thing - there will be less of general galactic data known to all third party tools and it will change nothing in regards of individual anonymity, because it's anonymous already.

Also, I would like to react to some ideas like tracking individual commanders (or bots, if you would like) via 3rd party tools - even if any tool will start doing that or will not be providing sufficient privacy settings, it won't solve anything. Any player can simply decide to not use such tool and most importantly - it won't solve the root of the problem, it may just show some consequences. So not exactly a solution of the problem discussed here. ;)

But generally speaking, 3rd party tools (or at least Inara) provide enough privacy settings so nobody needs to feel uncomfortable and being watched. All important information like flight log, mission log, credits log, etc. can be set for his/her eyes only and nobody else will see it. Being paranoid about that simply has no foundation. :)
 
Being paranoid about that simply has no foundation. :)

The issue of paranoia is with a similar level of detail being made available in the game, which may not be something that can be switched off. I have never used EDDN, no info of my activity has ever been uploaded to any 3rd party site (other than a few screenshots on this forum), it's simply not how I play or have ever played, I try to figure things out for myself.

Personally I don't assign any 'blame' to 3rd party tools, they are a tremendous achievement & I'd love to have inaras inf history graphs in the game for example. However while I don't blame the tools (they are available for anyone, including me if I choose) I do hold the players that use those tools responsible for their actions, including botters of course.
 
EDDN is one part, you also have all the other external tools that you can connect too. Most people I know turned all 3rd party plug-ins off because of it. Who want's to be tracked their every move in the game? There is also in-game data which is used for analyzing what the other side is doing, you can't turn that one off and it works especially well against smaller groups. The author of the 3rd bgs-botting thread told me all about it. One source by itself might not be that bad, but if you put all the different ones together and run some data analysis on it you can not only unmask to a high certainty the CMDR behind the data, but also predict what they are doing and what you need to do to counter it very easily. Just sent your human bgs drones to there the bot points to and all is good. If the data is no longer there, people just stop using the plug-ins, the out-of-game bots lose precision and things get a little murkier again. Of course there is also the issue that some people rest on their laurels and are now left behind on what is possible in playing the bgs.

Would you be able to send me details of what you mean? Not disagreeing with what you said but would like to understand it more clearly.

I also mostly don't use the plug ins but recently eddiscovery attracted me again because I want to analyse the materials in a few systems. When I have my spreadsheet I will likely uninstall it once more.

I have used Edmc often but don't currently have it installed. I'm happy not contributing because like you, sometimes I want things to be done quietly.
 
I would like to clarify some misconception here - EDDN network used by third party tools serves purely for distributing data like market listings, outfitting, influence of minor factions in the systems, some exploration stuff and so on. All entries are anonymized and there is not possible to track anybody or his/her actions via it. Disabling EDDN updates in tools like EDMC, EDDI, EDDiscovery, etc. will cause just the only thing - there will be less of general galactic data known to all third party tools and it will change nothing in regards of individual anonymity, because it's anonymous already.

We all know that anonymized data is not really anonymous. With cross referencing other data from out or in-game and/or a few in-game observations it's trivial to unmask who the CMDR behind the anonymized data is, especially if they use real-time uploads. Once you have that you can track their movements easily. We got some screenshots of it being used in Colonia a while ago.

But generally speaking, 3rd party tools (or at least Inara) provide enough privacy settings so nobody needs to feel uncomfortable and being watched. All important information like flight log, mission log, credits log, etc. can be set for his/her eyes only and nobody else will see it. Being paranoid about that simply has no foundation. :)

Inara for example had until not to long ago a CMDRs position viewable, even if not allowed by the privacy settings. Depending on how the CMDR was uploading data is was possible to real-time track somebody. You fixed the issue fast once it became common knowledge, kudos for that.

The more data is available the more and more complex analytics can and will be run on it and not only to find bots. It's just human nature. But that discussion is more appropriate for the 3rd botting threat then this one.

I'm all for breaking the boring and grindy bgs game-loops and introduce more rewarding ones. It should keep the bots at bay and make the actual bgs work more enjoyable. 1980s game-anti-piracy measures are not it. I don't want to go look up something in the "handbook" just to confirm I'm not a bot.
 
So having reviewed the data I do think that is something for another thread.

I think it should be raised though. Not because it happens but to raise awareness of it.

I'm not certain there is much value in live tracking as you can see BGS results anyway so you already know what they are up to. The value I think is in knowing the quantity of people you are up against which at the minute rests solely in the hands of the bigger groups.

Making that information visible in the system would break that monopoly.

Suggestion immediately springs to mind, what if you could "activate" anonymous protocols like when you have a fine and somehow not report movement. With obvious limiting of services.

Also, Inara is definitely not an issue here. Let's all take a minute to appreciate Artie!
 
The issue of paranoia is with a similar level of detail being made available in the game, which may not be something that can be switched off. I have never used EDDN, no info of my activity has ever been uploaded to any 3rd party site (other than a few screenshots on this forum), it's simply not how I play or have ever played, I try to figure things out for myself.

Personally I don't assign any 'blame' to 3rd party tools, they are a tremendous achievement & I'd love to have inaras inf history graphs in the game for example. However while I don't blame the tools (they are available for anyone, including me if I choose) I do hold the players that use those tools responsible for their actions, including botters of course.
I think this issue is unrelated to any tool or even to Elite itself. Many games are having some competitive aspect and some players simply want to become best, or win or overcome the challenge. Which is perfectly alright. Unfortunately, some of them are not afraid to play unfair and use whatever tool they have to their disposition, doesn't matter if it breaks the ToS (like various aim-bots in FPS games, etc.). I see the situation with botting no different - players want to win, but do not care if they win a fair way. If they use the information right in the game, pen and paper or third party tool to get some data, it doesn't play a role, because the primary reason why they are willing to break ToS is their desire to win at all costs.

We all know that anonymized data is not really anonymous. With cross referencing other data from out or in-game and/or a few in-game observations it's trivial to unmask who the CMDR behind the anonymized data is, especially if they use real-time uploads. Once you have that you can track their movements easily. We got some screenshots of it being used in Colonia a while ago.
Yep, to some extent and under a specific conditions and for a limited time (until relay change the hash), it's possible (for a limited set of information). It just isn't a very effective method how to track somebody and certainly not unless you are able to make such observations (like being in the game at the right place, at the right time).

Inara for example had until not to long ago a CMDRs position viewable, even if not allowed by the privacy settings. Depending on how the CMDR was uploading data is was possible to real-time track somebody. You fixed the issue fast once it became common knowledge, kudos for that.

The more data is available the more and more complex analytics can and will be run on it and not only to find bots. It's just human nature. But that discussion is more appropriate for the 3rd botting threat then this one.

I'm all for breaking the boring and grindy bgs game-loops and introduce more rewarding ones. It should keep the bots at bay and make the actual bgs work more enjoyable. 1980s game-anti-piracy measures are not it. I don't want to go look up something in the "handbook" just to confirm I'm not a bot.
Inara had this information displayed just to the squadron members, as there was a presumption that squadron members would like to play together and would like to know where other members are and the privacy settings were intended just for the public. It was not an issue, but designed that way. But apparently many squadrons do not trust their members enough so there were requests to change that behavior (and so it was changed). ;)

But back to the topic - yes, I also think that the old-fashioned measures aren't a very fortunate way how to solve such problem. By my posts I just wanted to state that common 3rd party tools and sites play no role in the problem (and unfortunately also no role in the solution, as it's outside their capabilities), as the core problem is just about how to detect and disconnect/ban non-player interactions made by scripts/bots. That's something Frontier should solve, client-side or server-side, to be effective.
 
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I think this issue is unrelated to any tool or even to Elite itself. Many games are having some competitive aspect and some players simply want to become best, or win or overcome the challenge. Which is perfectly alright. Unfortunately, some of them are not afraid to play unfair and use whatever tool they have to their disposition, doesn't matter if it breaks the ToS (like various aim-bots in FPS games, etc.). I see the situation with botting no different - players want to win, but do not care if they win a fair way. If they use the information right in the game, pen and paper or third party tool to get some data, it doesn't play a role, because the primary reason why they are willing to break ToS is their desire to win at all costs.

I agree, and that would be no different if the parsable logs were removed, except that it would make the game harder to bot and harder to organise & manage large regions of space, bringing the game back towards the 'lone Cmdr' style of play I enjoy & bought the game for - to compete on a level playing field against lots of other 'lone Cmdrs' and loose collections of allies & foes.

I see this botting thing as no different to gankers complaining about CLoggers, something that can be solved on a case by case basis by not acting like jerks towards other players.

FDev have access to the full info needed to identify cheats, the players don't need that full info & rather than gaining access to more info as is being proposed, I am proposing that giving players less info would help this problem and handily mitigate some of the motivation to cheat in the first place.

Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, we could leave it as it is & if someone suspects cheating, report it to FDev as they have requested (and said they take all reports seriously) and get on with playing the game.
 
You are asking for a solution to one of the most common game mechanics in almost every game ever.
I get what you're saying, but I think plenty of games manage progression without grind. Grind, to me, is pushing through unenjoyable things to make it to content you like, not just working towards something. Subnautica does things well with pacing. Every time you need something new, you also explore somewhere new so it's fun, and get a little upgraded so you can do better next time (unless you want a megabase, that IS a grind). Factory style games let you automate your current repetitive cycle to get to, well, a new one- but you're not still doing the same thing. I love ED, but the nature of a delivery mission hasn't really changed since I was in the Pilots Federation district!
 
Yea, but how many hours did you play those games? 50h? 100h?
Can you play those games for 4000 hours?
Subnautica, no, and for the amount that packs in to each hour that would be a crazy amount of content, sure. Factorio? Sure. I mean, I haven't, I have played it for about the same length of time as ED (~1000h), but plenty of people love it and have played more. Crucially, none of that was a grind, it was always me trying to build some new contraption to automate me a stage further.

It seems like the unspoken assumption there is that total enjoyment increases monotonically with hours. Frankly, my Elite experience would be far better if I'd visited, say, 5 different guardian sites on an Indiana Jones style quest, each linked to the next, and that had unlocked everything. As it is, the genuine sense of awe when I first landed at one was crushed by time I had done my 20th lap. Crucially, this isn't more content, just a less time-demanding layout of the same content.

As regards this topic, some extra content in deep space- navigational hazards that need you to steer around, or through, or refocus shields to one side or another or something, would make SC much more engaging and for the most part solve botting.

I know we won't get it, I don't think that makes ED a bad game, but there are definitely ways of making a game a time sink without making it a chore.
 
It seems like the unspoken assumption there is that total enjoyment increases monotonically with hours

No, not really.
In a game that you're supposed to finish in 50h you cant really expect a 40h grind.
But in an open world, sandbox, no ending career mode game, some activities might and will stretch over longer periods of times.

For example if you want to unlock several Guardian Modules - what do you do?
Either relog 2 days at a guardian site (to get all the blueprints and materials needed) or set yourself goal to explore all types of guardian sites doing each site once.
First option is grinding, while the second is gameplay that might keep you busy for quite some time - at least that's how i see it.

Same for engineering. Play the game (missions, combat, trading, mining, planetary exploration), visit some landmarks once each (davs, jamesons, bug killer) get whatever materials you can find, eventually visit a trader or two and engineer your ship as needed (at least G3, maybe more).
Or focus on grinding/hunting HGE, grinding Jamesons 20 minutes, relogging at davs 1h, spending another 1-2 in a Famine center - etc....

The point is, everything can be turned into a grind by players, especially in a game like ED where one is supposed to take it slow instead of fastforwarding everything turning into a grind and getting burned out (or not, but still complaining Oh! The Grind!).
 
In a game that you're supposed to finish in 50h you cant really expect a 40h grind.
True, but it doesn't follow that an open ended game has to be a grind either. I have plenty of high 100s+ games that weren't grindy, rare gems though they may be. It is a testament to the things Elite does very, very well that I still did grindy things in it. It is unique among games I love- it allowed me to vividly, convincingly experience my long-standing fantasy of being a starship pilot and also made me decide that I am glad my actual career is more interesting!
set yourself goal to explore all types of guardian sites doing each site once.
Yeah, I've seen this said before, but they don't often differ. That's still repeatedly running the same few ruin designs, just with more supercruise and hyperspace time. Besides, when a sense of progression toward a goal is a major motivating factor, you can't blame players for taking shortcuts- it's just poor design to leave them in. It was like people arguing that mining had to be well paid because combat was more fun- why put a career in a game if it isn't fun??

Again, back on topic, some complexity to SC flight would solve the bot problem and lead to more variety. I knew I shouldn't have carried a mafia boss at the same time as 20T of onionhead. Now he's high as a kite and setting off Liz's landmines in my ship, wrecking my modules.
 
Elite articles so hot right now.

Then reality appears

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Along with an FD statement stating they take botting seriously.
 
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