Shield Booster Diminishing Returns- Stop the Stack

Snoiperman

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gorankar said:
PvPers, and gankers asking Fdev to sacrifice everyone else's playstyle to improve their own again.
Though, I will agree emphatically that any further defensive and offensive power creep needs to be opposed.
What I don't want, is to go back through all of my ships and refit them because someone wants to be able to make "ship go boom" quicker. Few people like to give up what they already have, to give someone else something we don't even agree they should have.
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I mean this will make it so said gankers who run 8x shield boosters be killed easier. Or do you want to fly in your 8x shield cutter killing noobs and npcs without any sort of challenge? Honestly you would not even need to refit your shield boosters, an approximately 200% shield increase with 8 boosters is still substantial. You say this benefits gankers, while I say that the people most likely to run low amounts of shield boosters are the gankees.

The reason for this, is I feel so many old-timers want to keep their murderboats with 6x better shields so that people like you can keep ganking and killing people with a massive advantage onto your side.
 

Snoiperman

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Danieros said:
I agree that shields are out of line, but I hate arbitrary diminishing returns like this with a passion.

Engineered power plants give so much bonus power that we've been able to pretty much cap out on shield boosters, with blueprints that increase their individual power draw, fit thermal kinetic weapons (stuff like PAs and railguns, which were meant to be pretty power hungry) and still not run into power problems.

I was thinking more along the lines of coupling all shield boosters power draw together, so the biggest offenders (heavy duty and resistence augmented blueprints) would generate massive extra power costs if you're running a ton of boosters.
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Literally anything to reduce shield boosters stacking. Nerf Heavy duty to the ground, it is the sole reason PVP takes so long. Make it like a 30% increase at G5 to the 20% boost. It is also the reason Gankers have an advantage over regular ships, with pretty much 6-7x better shields than noob ships.
 
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Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Cmdr. Numa said:
But a few loud crybabies... stopped it
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Yes, as do the few loud crybabies now try to stop things they don't like...
As did the few loud crybabies put a stop to enhanced drag experimental...
As are a few loud crybabies asking for nerfs to most combat related boosts...
As a few loud crybabies asked for Premium to be nerfed too (were ignored, thankfully)...

Funny that the most upset noise all appears to come from a single playstyle, isn't it?
 

DemiserofD

D
Snoiperman said:
This is close to the optimal build, and using prismatics is the meta for PVP, since it gives much higher base shield totals which lead to drastically inflated shield values. The distributor draw really does not matter with 4 pips in shields and broken regen won't matter since you would have left before your shields have dropped. For a cutter, the meta is 3 resistance boosters and the rest heavy duty with experimentals of your choice.

If you do so, the meta will shift towards 1 ecm or pdc and 7 boosters since there is no incentive for less boosters. Boosters will still be extremely broken, with 8x boosters giving a total of 592% better shields than normal and using 2 ecms or pdcs would still make boosters OP. (444% better shields than normal ships)
Also, buffing missiles gives another drawback: Missiles will become main weapons rather than the support weapons they were meant to be. Although this might reduce shield totals, a Cutter that takes 15+ minutes to kill with 1 ecm and 2 pdcs is still wayyyy too much, which is why I support giving diminishing returns onto shield boosters.
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Have different missile types, incentivizing having both ecm AND point defense covering all sides of the ship. Thats at least 3 utilities used up.

Using the cutter as an example of typical results is a poor argument. It's got the most powerful shields in the game, and are supposed to be extraordinary.

I see no issue with missiles being a more meta weapon.
 

Snoiperman

S
gorankar said:
PvPers, and gankers asking Fdev to sacrifice everyone else's playstyle to improve their own again.
Though, I will agree emphatically that any further defensive and offensive power creep needs to be opposed.
What I don't want, is to go back through all of my ships and refit them because someone wants to be able to make "ship go boom" quicker. Few people like to give up what they already have, to give someone else something we don't even agree they should have.
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Gonna add something here: Heavy duty shield boosters is the only reason why gankers have their current 6x-8x better shields than noobs and other ships without engineering and why they have a significant advantage over trade/exploration ships. Right now, gankers cannot be stopped by anyone, as they can simply run after 10 minutes or outlast their opponent. Giving them a chance to actually die or be routed by the noob or trader they encounter is a good thing, even if you yourself no longer have your 6x stronger shields that you use to cheese the game.

"But what about the people who need heavy duty to survive ganker attacks?"
You still have enough shields. 200% increase in base shields with 4 boosters (assuming 500+ base) is more than enough to survive a ganker attack given ability to dodge attacks. Even if shields drop, just using heavy duty lightweight bulkheads can guarantee survival.

"Few people like to give up what they already have, to give someone else something we don't even agree they should have."

If it means some players who gets interdicted actually has a chance against the gankers, I am happy. Heavy duty is the only reason why PVP in general is unbalanced. It gives an unfair advantage to the ganker that nobody can counter, gives them a way out of every situation, an impenetrable defense that they can abuse to kill noobs. By weakening heavy duty, you allow the noobs to have a drastically closer playing field that they can use to fight back, even if they themselves have weaker shields.
 

Trollymctrollerson

T
But what about the mediocre to low skill 'PVE'/ solo player who just wants to spend hours and hours mowing down the mindless NPC tomato cans by the thousands with their invulnerable ship? Surely the game should cater to challenge averse isolationist old coots with poor vision right? I mean after all, the galaxy isn't supposed to be that cut throat.
 

Snoiperman

S
DemiserofD said:
Have different missile types, incentivizing having both ecm AND point defense covering all sides of the ship. Thats at least 3 utilities used up.
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Ok, but the boosters still give you 370% better shields than normal. But why not simply skip the ECM and Point Defense if you can escape manual and seeker missiles? The courier can reach and exceed the speeds of most missiles. It can just run 3 boosters with 222% better shields than everyone else. With the added bonus of its shields being better than many medium and two large ships, (clipper atleast IIRC), it can simply have extremely high shields with no drawbacks.

Yes, you can buff missiles. But the cutter, corvette, and anaconda can survive more than 47500, (52000 with less resists to thermal) 90000, and 92000 explosive damage each. Buffing the missiles enough to damage this pretty much gives all other ships no place in the meta, since being able to kill something with 92000 health in a reasonable time would guarantee everything else in the game with sub 14000 shields die instantly to missiles.
DemiserofD said:
Using the cutter as an example of typical results is a poor argument. It's got the most powerful shields in the game, and are supposed to be extraordinary.
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See anaconda, corvette. Hell, FDL can reach 28000 effective shields for explosive damage. Try nerfing Shield Boosters before adding your missiles.
DemiserofD said:
I see no issue with missiles being a more meta weapon.
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Missiles were added into this game in sizes 1 and 2, like railguns. They are meta support weapons already, just not main guns like the multicannon and laser. If you want a main weapon that is similar in type to a missile, I agree, but I don't think shield busting would be a good fit.
 

Snoiperman

S
Trollymctrollerson said:
But what about the mediocre to low skill 'PVE'/ solo player who just wants to spend hours and hours mowing down the mindless NPC tomato cans by the thousands with their invulnerable ship? Surely the game should cater to challenge averse isolationist old coots with poor vision right? I mean after all, the galaxy isn't supposed to be that cut throat.
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I really don't like how so many people who say they don't like to get ganked want to stop changes that stop ganking if any form of the changes nerf anything they use.
 

Vedmo

Vedmo
Trollymctrollerson said:
But what about the mediocre to low skill 'PVE'/ solo player who just wants to spend hours and hours mowing down the mindless NPC tomato cans by the thousands with their invulnerable ship? Surely the game should cater to challenge averse isolationist old coots with poor vision right? I mean after all, the galaxy isn't supposed to be that cut throat.
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Have we met?
 

DemiserofD

D
Snoiperman said:
Ok, but the boosters still give you 370% better shields than normal. But why not simply skip the ECM and Point Defense if you can escape manual and seeker missiles? The courier can reach and exceed the speeds of most missiles. It can just run 3 boosters with 222% better shields than everyone else. With the added bonus of its shields being better than many medium and two large ships, (clipper atleast IIRC), it can simply have extremely high shields with no drawbacks.

Yes, you can buff missiles. But the cutter, corvette, and anaconda can survive more than 47500, (52000 with less resists to thermal) 90000, and 92000 explosive damage each. Buffing the missiles enough to damage this pretty much gives all other ships no place in the meta, since being able to kill something with 92000 health in a reasonable time would guarantee everything else in the game with sub 14000 shields die instantly to missiles.

See anaconda, corvette. Hell, FDL can reach 28000 effective shields for explosive damage. Try nerfing Shield Boosters before adding your missiles.

Missiles were added into this game in sizes 1 and 2, like railguns. They are meta support weapons already, just not main guns like the multicannon and laser. If you want a main weapon that is similar in type to a missile, I agree, but I don't think shield busting would be a good fit.
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The easiest answer would be to just make missiles ignore Shields entirely.
 

Brrokk

Brrokk
There is a simple solution: don't fit so many shield boosters. If in a PvP tournament, have a rule limiting the number of allowed boosters.

I'm a bit fed up of the "I don't like people doing this; change the game so it's not available to them" type of ideas.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
Brrokk said:
There is a simple solution: don't fit so many shield boosters. If in a PvP tournament, have a rule limiting the number of allowed boosters.

I'm a bit fed up of the "I don't think people should do this so change the game so it's not available to them" type of ideas.
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Because we all know PvPers of all players are the most honorable and law abiding CMDRs.
LoL
 

Snoiperman

S
DemiserofD said:
The easiest answer would be to just make missiles ignore Shields entirely.
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And make Lasers, Multicannons, Torpedoes, Mines, and Frag Cannons absolutely useless? Do you want size 2 and 1 missiles outperforming phasing sequence lasers which were specifically designed to go through shields even while 2 sizes smaller?
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Bigmaec said:
Tournaments aren't the problem, they are already regulated. It's the organic PvP that's annoying.
And honor codes like "never use prems" work out sooo well. sigh
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'Organic PvP' means taking the chance that your loadout may be better than the other player, doesn't it?
A calculated risk...

So, PvP players are as risk-averse as the other groups of players they so fondly take the mickey from, then?
 

Trollymctrollerson

T
I have another idea. An experimental effect for pvps worst weapon, the beam laser. I call it "Ionic Vibration". Successful strikes from this weapon transfer some of the incoming damage to a shield boosters integrity. The more boosters are active, the stronger the effect. Like regular damage, this effect scales with weapon size and modification.
 
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