Terraforming

[Ser Xav]

Not sure if it’s been discussed anywhere in any depth, but with tenuous atmospheres coming soon (and then hopefully actual atmospheres, but this is a different subject perhaps), it makes me wonder about what new gameplay loops could be opened up and become associated with atmospheres (tenuous or other).

Exploring for a terraformable world - and then terraforming it, to establish a base or outpost and associated resource generation sites - strikes me as an exciting prospect that might fit well with explorer carriers, community goals, large scale multiplayer initiatives spread out over time on long burn ‘campaigns’, and other gameplay assets or loops that are already in place, or will be in place, off the back of Odyssey.

 

[goemon]

Exploring for a terraformable world - and then terraforming it,... strikes me as an exciting prospect ... on long burn ‘campaigns’

totally. the second attempt of terraforming mars only took around 100 years according to the toruist beacon in the 23rd century, so it is reasonable to assume, that terraforming "now" happens much faster, maybe 50 years is reasonable.

if i'm still playing then in about 45 years i'd love to see a terraformable planet i discovered 5 years ago finally terraformed.

 

[Ser Xav]

Lol... Yeah obviously talking video game terraforming here, was thinking more like 2-3 weeks of multiplayer activity.

 

[Florenus]

Lol... Yeah obviously talking video game terraforming here, was thinking more like 2-3 weeks of multiplayer activity.

I hate this kind of handwavium.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I hate this kind of handwavium.

I agree, but a 50 years process is not gameplay. However, I think there is room to meet in the middle, remember when thargoids attacked stations, and the stations were damaged, but the required cargo to repair them was tens or even hundreds of thousands of tonnes per station? Perhaps terraforming could take hundreds of thousands, or even millions of tonnes of "Equipment" and "Materials" (cargo) to make it happen. Quite how you'd render the terraforming process in game is somehting I'm not entirely sure on, but I'd imagine that after the resources have been gathered, the planet could "morph, going through 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 stages, changing every thursday at server tick/reset.

So yeah, with what I'm proposing, an operation IDA type organisation could rapidly gather / deploy the equipment to terraform a planet in a gameplayable timescale, but the actual process of terraforming itself would then take a meaningful amount of time.

 

[Ser Xav]

I hate this kind of handwavium.

Sorry dude.

I agree, but a 50 years process is not gameplay. However, I think there is room to meet in the middle, remember when thargoids attacked stations, and the stations were damaged, but the required cargo to repair them was tens or even hundreds of thousands of tonnes per station? Perhaps terraforming could take hundreds of thousands, or even millions of tonnes of "Equipment" and "Materials" (cargo) to make it happen. Quite how you'd render the terraforming process in game is somehting I'm not entirely sure on, but I'd imagine that after the resources have been gathered, the planet could "morph, going through 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 stages, changing every thursday at server tick/reset.

So yeah, with what I'm proposing, an operation IDA type organisation could rapidly gather / deploy the equipment to terraform a planet in a gameplayable timescale, but the actual process of terraforming itself would then take a meaningful amount of time.

Yeah that’s bang on the money Jay. Yeah similar in concept to rebuilding a station. Would be interesting concept to see it done as a large scale effort to populate locations. then to create a world can change and the provide resources. Obviously requires an amount of suspension of hardcore reality but then this is video game so needs gameplay ‘reality’. Sort of starts bordering on the basebuilding discussion obviously and don’t want to open that one up. But it’s just an interesting concept of what they could do with atmospheres in an engaging way.

 

[Florenus]

I agree, but a 50 years process is not gameplay. However, I think there is room to meet in the middle, remember when thargoids attacked stations, and the stations were damaged, but the required cargo to repair them was tens or even hundreds of thousands of tonnes per station? Perhaps terraforming could take hundreds of thousands, or even millions of tonnes of "Equipment" and "Materials" (cargo) to make it happen. Quite how you'd render the terraforming process in game is somehting I'm not entirely sure on, but I'd imagine that after the resources have been gathered, the planet could "morph, going through 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 stages, changing every thursday at server tick/reset.

So yeah, with what I'm proposing, an operation IDA type organisation could rapidly gather / deploy the equipment to terraform a planet in a gameplayable timescale, but the actual process of terraforming itself would then take a meaningful amount of time.

I just don't think it's necessary to make terraforming part of playable process. There's absolutely no need for that (because if you want ELW, you can just find one) and making it magically short for gameplay sake would ruin the realistic sense of scale of the universe - time should have a meaning too.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Sorry dude.



Yeah that’s bang on the money Jay. Yeah similar in concept to rebuilding a station. Would be interesting concept to see it done as a large scale effort to populate locations. then to create a world can change and the provide resources. Obviously requires an amount of suspension of hardcore reality but then this is video game so needs gameplay ‘reality’. Sort of starts bordering on the basebuilding discussion obviously and don’t want to open that one up. But it’s just an interesting concept of what they could do with atmospheres in an engaging way.

I'm glad you liked my terraforming proposal, I aim to please

I just don't think it's necessary to make terraforming part of playable process. There's absolutely no need for that (because if you want ELW, you can just find one) and making it magically short for gameplay sake would ruin the realistic sense of scale of the universe - time should have a meaning too.

I know what you mean about there being no shortage of ELW's, IIRC one of my alt's actually has a few tagged up in their name. However, there are terraforming economy types already in the game, so terraforming is part of the lore / fabric of the Elite universe, so I was trying to find a way of creating some gameplay out of it that wouldn't take decades or centuries, nor be as gamey as a community goal whereby 80,000t of cargo was dropped at a starport and seven days later a new earthlike world replaced a previously barren space rock.

 

[Florenus]

I know what you mean about there being no shortage of ELW's, IIRC one of my alt's actually has a few tagged up in their name. However, there are terraforming economy types already in the game, so terraforming is part of the lore / fabric of the Elite universe, so I was trying to find a way of creating some gameplay out of it that wouldn't take decades or centuries, nor be as gamey as a community goal whereby 80,000t of cargo was dropped at a starport and seven days later a new earthlike world replaced a previously barren space rock.

I know there are terraforming economies in the game. There are also worlds that, according to their description, are in the process of being terraformed. They are from the begginning of the game. So in lore it happens, but it is realistically slow process.
I just don't see any reason why players should be given "godlike" powers to turn planets into ELWs, even if it would be relatively slow for them.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I know there are terraforming economies in the game. There are also worlds that, according to their description, are in the process of being terraformed. They are from the begginning of the game. So in lore it happens, but it is realistically slow process.
I just don't see any reason why players should be given "godlike" powers to turn planets into ELWs, even if it would be relatively slow for them.

It would add more depth to the game. Maybe my suggested timelines are too fast, or the cargo requirements too low, given the god like powers? But then again, if it were Frontier, not the players, that decided what was getting terraformed, and we players could only haul cargo to facilitate the enactment of Frontier's will, the god like powers wouldn't be in our hands and thus wouldn't be a problem?

 

[here_it_comes]

Discovering/mapping terraforming candidates already pays a chunk bonus. You just have to check each planet on the system map to see if they are candidates because the FSS tells you everything but.

 

[Howard’s Cat]

If I terraform a planet, there damned well be a statue of me

 

[Florenus]

It would add more depth to the game. Maybe my suggested timelines are too fast, or the cargo requirements too low, given the god like powers? But then again, if it were Frontier, not the players, that decided what was getting terraformed, and we players could only haul cargo to facilitate the enactment of Frontier's will, the god like powers wouldn't be in our hands and thus wouldn't be a problem?

I ment "godlike powers" because any reasonable timeframe for players would be highly unrealistic otherwise.
When we had this CG about gathering ammonia worlds data for Sirius Corp. terraforming project, my biggest fear was that we're going to see them actually terraforming those planets while we play nad two weeks later we're going to see Galnet article that first ammonia world has lush forests and pristine air now.
I know this might not be a big deal to some, but I enjoy Elite when it's most realistic and I don't like it bending rules too much.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I ment "godlike powers" because any reasonable timeframe for players would be highly unrealistic otherwise.
When we had this CG about gathering ammonia worlds data for Sirius Corp. terraforming project, my biggest fear was that we're going to see them actually terraforming those planets while we play nad two weeks later we're going to see Galnet article that first ammonia world has lush forests and pristine air now.
I know this might not be a big deal to some, but I enjoy Elite when it's most realistic and I don't like it bending rules too much.

I also like the fact its at least based on firm-science if not "hard-science", which is one of the reasons I get so bent out of shape when people start making noises about removing supercruise, as space is big, so even superluminary travel will take time. So, we are kind of on the same side, I just misread what you meant by the term god like pwoers. As much as I like the idea of players being able to get a sense of participating in the game's existing terraforming efforts, I didn't want it to get overly gamified to the point where players could terraform planets for little more effort than is expended rolling a set of Dirty Drive Grade 5 thrusters. I'd hope that if there were to be any terraforming efforts introduced by Frontier, be they coalsack nebula operations for Sirius, or A. N. Other's endeavors, that they would have criteria more akin to the station repairs, to keep it at least semi credible.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Is there a single world that started the game as being terraformed that has ever been changed to an ELW yet?

 

[Ser Xav]

didn't want it to get overly gamified to the point where players could terraform planets for little more effort than is expended rolling a set of Dirty Drive Grade 5 thrusters.

Yeah agree with that, I didn’t mean the proposal to be super quick or super easy. Should be substantial and rewarding without it taking a silly amount of time. As with anything in Elite it’s a need to strike a balance.

Don’t get me wrong on the original post, I like to lean towards the ‘sim’ end of Elite - I’d like it a lot more simmy and ‘realistic’ and if I was in the development seat it certainly would be - but also obviously acknowledge that gameplay loops require some simplification, with balance

 

[goemon]

Is there a single world that started the game as being terraformed that has ever been changed to an ELW yet?

i think there was a CG once, which achieved that, 2016 or so.

 

[Sapyx]

Is there a single world that started the game as being terraformed that has ever been changed to an ELW yet?

i think there was a CG once, which achieved that, 2016 or so.

In (northern hemisphere) Spring 3301/2015, and Spring 3302/2016, there were terraforming CGs - players bring X amount of terraforming equipment, and if they bring enough, the CG is a success and the planet is changed to an ELW, and the commodity market changed from Terraforming to Agricultural, shortly thereafter. If FDev's intent was "spring is terraforming season", then this was forgotten in subsequent years.

Specifically:
6 March 3301: five concurrent CGs, for the completing of terraforming projects in the Dohkwithi, Djaujas, HIP 54692, Khona and Milelbis systems. All five planets were successfully terraformed. The CG wording was that these planets were nearly terraformed ("Stage 3") but they lacked a few key commodities for final completion. Each CG needed a different commodity: Land Enrichment Systems, Atmospheric Processors, Advanced Catalysers, Auto Fabricators and Robotics, respectively.

31st March 3302: CG to complete terraforming of Vennik 1. Commodity required: Land Enrichment systems. Planet successfully terraformed. In the wording for this CG, the faction in charge of the CG said "Terraforming a planet takes decades, so we're delighted to be entering the final stage.".

To the best of my knowledge, these are the only planets that have been successfully terraformed since game launch. No planets have been terraformed without the aid of a CG to "finish the job". Players and player groups cannot terraform a planet just by shipping vast quantities of terraforming commodities to it using missions or regular trade. Many have tried; all have failed.

 

[Sapyx]

Not sure if it’s been discussed anywhere in any depth, but with tenuous atmospheres coming soon (and then hopefully actual atmospheres, but this is a different subject perhaps), it makes me wonder about what new gameplay loops could be opened up and become associated with atmospheres (tenuous or other).

Exploring for a terraformable world - and then terraforming it, to establish a base or outpost and associated resource generation sites - strikes me as an exciting prospect that might fit well with explorer carriers, community goals, large scale multiplayer initiatives spread out over time on long burn ‘campaigns’, and other gameplay assets or loops that are already in place, or will be in place, off the back of Odyssey.

Here we have a problem, in that this can't be implemented until and unless ELWs become landable. Otherwise, you'd have the prospect of a surface base "disappearing" from the game and becoming no longer landable, when the atmosphere gets too thick.

We already have numerous bases on airless planets that are "candidates for terraforming"; the nearest to Sol is Wafer Gateway on Talitha C 6. There are currently no bases on planets "being terraformed", which perhaps should not surprise, as I would assume once terraforming of an airless world begins, it would very quickly build up to a point where it becomes unlandable. There is currently no such thing as an airless world "being terraformed". But I suspect bases on planets "being terraformed" would become a thing once Odyssey arrives, unless FD adds algorithms to specifically exclude them from being generated.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Yeah agree with that, I didn’t mean the proposal to be super quick or super easy. Should be substantial and rewarding without it taking a silly amount of time. As with anything in Elite it’s a need to strike a balance.

Don’t get me wrong on the original post, I like to lean towards the ‘sim’ end of Elite - I’d like it a lot more simmy and ‘realistic’ and if I was in the development seat it certainly would be - but also obviously acknowledge that gameplay loops require some simplification, with balance

Don't worry mate, I'd read it that way, and I'm also on side, which is why I drafted a "plausible" means of making it happen, in a quasi sim-like manner.

In (northern hemisphere) Spring 3301/2015, and Spring 3302/2016, there were terraforming CGs - players bring X amount of terraforming equipment, and if they bring enough, the CG is a success and the planet is changed to an ELW, and the commodity market changed from Terraforming to Agricultural, shortly thereafter. If FDev's intent was "spring is terraforming season", then this was forgotten in subsequent years.

Specifically:
6 March 3301: five concurrent CGs, for the completing of terraforming projects in the Dohkwithi, Djaujas, HIP 54692, Khona and Milelbis systems. All five planets were successfully terraformed. The CG wording was that these planets were nearly terraformed ("Stage 3") but they lacked a few key commodities for final completion. Each CG needed a different commodity: Land Enrichment Systems, Atmospheric Processors, Advanced Catalysers, Auto Fabricators and Robotics, respectively.

31st March 3302: CG to complete terraforming of Vennik 1. Commodity required: Land Enrichment systems. Planet successfully terraformed. In the wording for this CG, the faction in charge of the CG said "Terraforming a planet takes decades, so we're delighted to be entering the final stage.".

To the best of my knowledge, these are the only planets that have been successfully terraformed since game launch. No planets have been terraformed without the aid of a CG to "finish the job". Players and player groups cannot terraform a planet just by shipping vast quantities of terraforming commodities to it using missions or regular trade. Many have tried; all have failed.

I've got to put my hands up, I was ingame then, but supergreen, and don't recall, or may never have picked up on those CG's at that time, it's interesting that they were terraformed, albeit through the "hand of god". Having said that, I think it's best Frontier keep control on what can be or is actually terraformed, otherwise you'd have eleventeen thousand terraformed planets in the bubble with numerous players demanding they be able to land on them to admire their own statue(s). Yes, I'm teasing another poster in this thread, but it's only light hearted banter, but then again, if you, on you own, took the eleventeen hundred thousand tonnes of stuffz to the planets terraforming base to make it happen, you damned welld eserve that statue.

Here we have a problem, in that this can't be implemented until and unless ELWs become landable. Otherwise, you'd have the prospect of a surface base "disappearing" from the game and becoming no longer landable, when the atmosphere gets too thick.

We already have numerous bases on airless planets that are "candidates for terraforming"; the nearest to Sol is Wafer Gateway on Talitha C 6. There are currently no bases on planets "being terraformed", which perhaps should not surprise, as I would assume once terraforming of an airless world begins, it would very quickly build up to a point where it becomes unlandable. There is currently no such thing as an airless world "being terraformed". But I suspect bases on planets "being terraformed" would become a thing once Odyssey arrives, unless FD adds algorithms to specifically exclude them from being generated.

Yeah, it could become a bit of an "own goal" - terraforming a planet taking great effort, to reduce the number of places you can go to... Maybe they'd need to limit it to early stage terraformation with a tenuous atmosphere, or give us secondary and tertiary stages to go through to go through the "Red Mars", "Green Mars" & "Blue Mars" stages of terraforming, at a pace at which development of planetary tech could keep abreast with player efforts. This could be done in galnet articles, "Degobah Silverhand Corporation are delighted to announce that their requisition for terraforming resources has begun, as such Degobah 3A's terraforming can start its first phase immediately, and is anticipated to take 2 years. Local politicians have heralded the news as a new era for the system stating that It might only be a tenuous atmosphere we are making at this time, but it gives us a solid grip of the future of this system. Pilots federation representatives have put a cordon around the planet for two years to prevent any pilot activity from inadvertently, or intentionally hampering terraforming efforts."[/ispoiler]