Need anti shield tank pvp build

Deleted member 182079

D
Although it takes time (based on hardpoint number) and ship agility phasing SRB cytos are great, since they deal flat damage if the shield remains up (ironically) :D
The Alliance ships are great for it with the 3 small hard points (got a few phasing Cytos lying around). If any of mine were built for PvP I'd be inclined to go Cutter hunting (with my luck I wouldn't probably run into them and instead face hull tanks instead).
 
Okay but we lose a ton of shield HP by not having full pips to SYS, which we can't do in combat because we need to power our weapons. How do you make hull tanking viable, without it being completely overpowered and just a new OP "meta"? No pip juggling, less power plant needed etc etc. It has so many advantages, they just HAD to nerf it obviously.
irrc they did not nerf hull tanking. they buffed everything else, including npc "missile spam" (which is crazy, as npcs often have not the loadout to drop a shieldtanks shield in the first place...).
 
The Alliance ships are great for it with the 3 small hard points (got a few phasing Cytos lying around). If any of mine were built for PvP I'd be inclined to go Cutter hunting (with my luck I wouldn't probably run into them and instead face hull tanks instead).
Its not a fast method though- as a guide on an engineered ship (NPC Corvette pirate) 3x g5 SRB cytos took off about 1.5% hull each pass. On a player who has pumped everything into shields (boosters, SCBs, Guardian toys etc) you might get the same, but for balanced builds the phasing cyto is far too slow.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
Its not a fast method though- as a guide on an engineered ship (NPC Corvette pirate) 3x g5 SRB cytos took off about 1.5% hull each pass. On a player who has pumped everything into shields (boosters, SCBs, Guardian toys etc) you might get the same, but for balanced builds the phasing cyto is far too slow.
Yeah, sounds fair. I never really get into PvP to win because I usually lose out on the rock/paper/scissor game when it comes to my build vs the one I encounter, so a few passes then I wake out. With Cutters I don't even bother at all anymore because they will leave once their shields drop to one ring (and even if you manage to drop them, which I haven't yet been able to, you're still facing thousands of hull points) - simply a waste of time engaging them. And your average ganker will most likely have a pretty balanced build which will go well into the 5 digits in terms of full health points. Watching paint dry is more exciting.
 
Okay but we lose a ton of shield HP by not having full pips to SYS, which we can't do in combat because we need to power our weapons. How do you make hull tanking viable, without it being completely overpowered and just a new OP "meta"? No pip juggling, less power plant needed etc etc. It has so many advantages, they just HAD to nerf it obviously.
It doesn't have advantages though. There's constant repair cost, no magic potions to replenish hull like there are for shields, penetrating weapons and the simple fact that ships designed for hull tanking are slow bricks.

And yes it was never nerfed. It never needed to be nerfed. It only really worked pre-engineers and only somewhat at that.

I'm not saying I want my PvE immortal Corvette (and soon to be Cutter) to be nerfed, but the amount of shield strength we can achieve is ridiculous.

There are also weapons that desperately need balancing, namely cannons and mines. Who uses either of them? For a while cannons were useful with high yield but they went overboard in nerfing it.

Would that help the OP? Depending on what the balancing did, maybe? I don't think cannons should be an anti-shield weapon but mines certainly can be if they were made useful.
 
It doesn't have advantages though. There's constant repair cost, no magic potions to replenish hull like there are for shields, penetrating weapons and the simple fact that ships designed for hull tanking are slow bricks.

And yes it was never nerfed. It never needed to be nerfed. It only really worked pre-engineers and only somewhat at that.

I'm not saying I want my PvE immortal Corvette (and soon to be Cutter) to be nerfed, but the amount of shield strength we can achieve is ridiculous.

There are also weapons that desperately need balancing, namely cannons and mines. Who uses either of them? For a while cannons were useful with high yield but they went overboard in nerfing it.

Would that help the OP? Depending on what the balancing did, maybe? I don't think cannons should be an anti-shield weapon but mines certainly can be if they were made useful.

Well I agree with you on one aspect and I've said as much. Engineering scaled defense way more than offense. Honestly most engineering weapon mods are quite meh. And yeah cannons and other weapons need a buff.

They could add mods that increase weapon damage that go in the utility slots to force us to choose between shield boosters or damage? Maybe something like that?

But nerfs? Nah, I don't like nerfs. Not cool.
 
This Mamba could do it

8 torpedoes will kill the shields on any Cutter that is not using anti-torp shields.
2 seekers for the drives
Huge MC for FSD / Drives / PP sniping

Ideally, the Rules of Engagement would be: fire Torps to kill shield gen, kill drives using seekers and/or the huge MC, kill pp using the huge MC, watch them go puff
But there are chances that torps will miss (slim, but still) or they will clog - in which case you should make use of the ingame report button.

Edit:
Similarly useable builds would be a Chief using torps for the 2 Large Hardpoints (but the Chief has weak shields and its drives can be shot from any angle)
or Cutter or Krait Mk2 or even a Phantom or Clipper. Basically anything thas has 2 large hardpoints augumented with some other hardpoints to secure the kill

For the Kraits, 2 long range medium superpen rails can easily snipe the fsd/pp or the drives from almost all angles.
 
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Deleted member 182079

D
This Mamba could do it

8 torpedoes will kill the shields on any Cutter that is not using anti-torp shields.
2 seekers for the drives
Huge MC for FSD / Drives / PP sniping

Ideally, the Rules of Engagement would be: fire Torps to kill shield gen, kill drives using seekers and/or the huge MC, kill pp using the huge MC, watch them go puff
But there are chances that torps will miss (slim, but still) or they will clog - in which case you should make use of the ingame report button.
It's actually quite difficult for Torps to hit another player ship (unless it's a surprise alpha strike, or they're inexperienced/asleep behind the HOTAS), I tried a few times and they managed to avoid either all or at least some of them. Especially with a Cutter (the other annoying thing about facing one) being quite fast for a large barge. But yeah as soon as shields drop they'll run one way or another.

I do use Torps on my own Trade Cutter though for NPC Anacondas - works very well but more than 2 of them and you're out of ammo and have to bail.
 
The Cutter is the most expensive ship in the game, and it requires a rank unlock just to get it. It's also a lot more intensive to fully engineer.

I guess I'm a bit confused why your Chieftain, one of the cheapest easily-accessed medium combat ship in the game, should be able to defeat such a thing.

You're attacking the battleship Bismark in a dingy while complaining about it's "ridiculous" defenses. I think what's ridiculous is your approach to PVP.
wow nice tude , i never once said i was expecting to take them down solo but ive fought in a wing with 4 other players 2 FDL , ME and a Corvette all focusing the cutter and the shield didnt go down. What im asking here is what can i build to counter them not make my chieftan able to defeat them , ill buy a cutter if i need i have it unlocked,
 

Deleted member 182079

D
you can't. nobody can. you can be a pita, have a laugh, count a redraw as a win. but to take down any shieldtank cutter, the cutter pilot must make a grave error, lured into not expecting shieldgenerator destroying torpedo barrages or similar.
Yep - basically the Cutter pilot has to be cooperative letting you destroy his ship, not going to happen if he doesn't want to eat a rebuy and he's not AFK.

Case in point, whenever I fly my (trade) Cutter which has a size 6 Prismo, 704t cargo and 4 SRVs (because, why not) I barely ever get interdicted (seasoned gankers know their chances are slim) and whenever I did I still managed to get away - and that includes an RoA wing of 4. It's basically cheat mode as a ship in the game.
 
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Fighting Cutters, where they don't have support from faster vessels, is boring:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KYm62iVxQE


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x13SGjUjAoY


That is how the majority of my CMDR's encounters with hostile Cutters go. It doesn't really matter what medium I'm in or what it was built for; eventually I'll knock out all the SLFs and work through all the SCBs (much faster if I have feedback rails, of course, but I often don't) and the Cutter will either leave rather than risk destruction, leave when it's ammo runs out and it can't open up enough distance to synthesize, or explode if the pilot just doesn't care.

The Cutter is the most expensive ship in the game, and it requires a rank unlock just to get it. It's also a lot more intensive to fully engineer.

I guess I'm a bit confused why your Chieftain, one of the cheapest easily-accessed medium combat ship in the game, should be able to defeat such a thing.

You're attacking the battleship Bismark in a dingy while complaining about it's "ridiculous" defenses. I think what's ridiculous is your approach to PVP.

The Cutter isn't a battleship and the only thing it has going for it in combat is it's enormous shield pool and relatively high straightline speed for it's size. If it doesn't have wing support, it generally has to rely heavily on SLFs or turrets to fend off anything faster than itself.

Nine times out of ten, the Cutter is destined to lose (be forced to retreat) against any competently flown medium...it's just going to drag on forever. That's the issue here. It's not that Cutters are hard to defeat, it's that they are tedious to defeat. The outcome might be set in stone before the fight is even joined, but you'll need to endure twenty minutes of RSI inducing 'gameplay' to reach it.

Shields are a virtually perfect, universal, defense. There are no weak spots to target, no room for fancy tactics to stage a reversal...it's pure attrition. You either get lucky with enough torpedoes to knock out the generator, or you grind though the long way.

How do you make hull tanking viable, without it being completely overpowered and just a new OP "meta"? No pip juggling, less power plant needed etc etc. It has so many advantages, they just HAD to nerf it obviously.

It wasn't overpowered before. It was just barely competitive.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq9TDEvg-tU


Stealth mechanisms are what made it competitive, and the depreciation of those mechanisms, along with shield inflation dramatically outpacing hull/module inflation is what rendered it non-competitive.

In the current state of the game, weapons cannot be effectively employed while silent, and emissive is an absolute hard counter to any attempt at reducing sensor signature. A shieldless ship cannot readily break seeker lock or subsystem targeting and has a vastly lower total 'health' pool than a shielded setup. Unless a ship has stacked anti-missile defenses to the exclusion of others, seekers will rapidly strip away weapons, or knock out thrusters. Long range hitscan weapons, especially rail guns, and especially in conjunction with emissive and super penetrator, allow modules to be reliably sniped at extreme ranges where no evasion is possible.

Hull-focused and hybrid combat is much more dynamic and entertaining than combat between setups reliant on shielding. There are more options, both offensively and defensively, and more meaningful tactical considerations than when it's just shields. With a shield focused setup, there are too many certainties...as long as the shields hold, you don't have to worry about anything else, but when shields are down a few lucky or well-placed shots can turn the tide of a fight without things degenerating into raw damage in vs. damage out. Scenarios whose outcomes are reliant on more than just whose health bar is going down faster are vastly more engaging, IMO.
 
Well I agree with you on one aspect and I've said as much. Engineering scaled defense way more than offense. Honestly most engineering weapon mods are quite meh. And yeah cannons and other weapons need a buff.

They could add mods that increase weapon damage that go in the utility slots to force us to choose between shield boosters or damage? Maybe something like that?

But nerfs? Nah, I don't like nerfs. Not cool.
I prefer that myself. Not a fan of nerfs unless it's absolutely necessary.

A utility that increases damage would be a good bonus for hull tanks that don't get much benefit from shield boosters. I like the idea. Stronger defense or stronger offense is one of the most common and core choices in most games.
wow nice tude , i never once said i was expecting to take them down solo but ive fought in a wing with 4 other players 2 FDL , ME and a Corvette all focusing the cutter and the shield didnt go down. What im asking here is what can i build to counter them not make my chieftan able to defeat them , ill buy a cutter if i need i have it unlocked,
Cutter vs Cutter would probably be an endless battle.

The Cutter really is the showcase for why the shield meta needs balancing in some way. A lot of streamers and youtubers say the same. It's just too much. Add a healing beam in a wing and forget it it's absolutely broken.

Curious what weapons your wing used though? There should be plenty of DPS to take out a single Cutter's shields.
 
wow nice tude , i never once said i was expecting to take them down solo but ive fought in a wing with 4 other players 2 FDL , ME and a Corvette all focusing the cutter and the shield didnt go down. What im asking here is what can i build to counter them not make my chieftan able to defeat them , ill buy a cutter if i need i have it unlocked,

You said the Cutter is just sitting there not moving. So did anyone in your wing have a torpedo or feedback cascade rails? Those would have absolutely forced him to run or take some defensive measures.

So the Cutter was obviously setup properly for PVP, while your group was clearly not. But you're jumping on the "zomg shields OP" bandwagon. Sorry if I have an attitude about that.
 
The Cutter is the most expensive ship in the game, and it requires a rank unlock just to get it. It's also a lot more intensive to fully engineer.

I guess I'm a bit confused why your Chieftain, one of the cheapest easily-accessed medium combat ship in the game, should be able to defeat such a thing.

You're attacking the battleship Bismark in a dingy while complaining about it's "ridiculous" defenses. I think what's ridiculous is your approach to PVP.
I kind of agree with that. I would like to see the same way of thinking every time I see a cutter player complain about "but they were 2 meds against me and the don't want to 1v1" ;)

Fast answer. One of the reason why shield tanking is the meta is there's no real counter to shield (nobody with a minimum of competence in pvp eat a torp). So no counter build.

The other reason is shield hitpoint overinflation. Especially on the cutter who can have more than 10k front mj, before banks.
 
I kind of agree with that. I would like to see the same way of thinking every time I see a cutter player complain about "but they were 2 meds against me and the don't want to 1v1" ;)

Fast answer. One of the reason why shield tanking is the meta is there's no real counter to shield (nobody with a minimum of competence in pvp eat a torp). So no counter build.

The other reason is shield hitpoint overinflation. Especially on the cutter who can have more than 10k front mj, before banks.
Except there are counters to shields, devastating ones. They just come with drawbacks, which become less of a drawback if the Cutter is just sitting in place as the OP said it was.

It is what it is. Engaging a Cutter in PVP was really stupid if nobody had torps or cascade rails. Which I highly suspect was the case here, hence the frustration.

What role do you even see for the Cutter in the game, especially in PVP, if not for it's one saving grace: Shield HP?
 
No way to balance things where the OP would be happy, for example, and doesn't leave the Cutter pilot thinking he just spent a small fortune for a beached space-whale that's only useful for mining or hauling goods.

If huge ships don't have huge defenses...I'm not sure what the point of them would be.

I don't PVP. Yet I have zero confidence that FDEV could "balance" PVP without severely impacting how I enjoy the game.
There's the basic problem. Having read the discussion in a few threads I now understand what the PvP players are complaining of, but:-

Making it easier for lawfuls to destroy gankers would also make it easier for gankers to destroy traders.

As a trader whose favourite ship is a very heavily shielded Cutter and whose favourite way of seeing off gankers is letting them scan me, I'm of course not in favour.

FD have created this dilemma by making various playstyles fit in the same game space. I suspect they've balanced it almost as well as possible.
 
There's the basic problem. Having read the discussion in a few threads I now understand what the PvP players are complaining of, but:-

Making it easier for lawfuls to destroy gankers would also make it easier for gankers to destroy traders.

As a trader whose favourite ship is a very heavily shielded Cutter and whose favourite way of seeing off gankers is letting them scan me, I'm of course not in favour.

FD have created this dilemma by making various playstyles fit in the same game space. I suspect they've balanced it almost as well as possible.
Exactly.

This ^^^^^! Exactly this man. Not sure what more I could even add to this as you've nailed it.
 
There's the basic problem. Having read the discussion in a few threads I now understand what the PvP players are complaining of, but:-

Making it easier for lawfuls to destroy gankers would also make it easier for gankers to destroy traders.

As a trader whose favourite ship is a very heavily shielded Cutter and whose favourite way of seeing off gankers is letting them scan me, I'm of course not in favour.

FD have created this dilemma by making various playstyles fit in the same game space. I suspect they've balanced it almost as well as possible.
Or you can just play in solo and avoid all that nonsense :) It's not worth stressing over if you just want to come home after a long day of work and unwind with some games.
 
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