Living, breathing universe vs. immersion ruining grind... Plea to overhaul the entire "materials" mechanic

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

The gold farmer complaints have been around since the original days of MMOs and are an elitist thing. The basic premise, which is common amongst forum trolls who believe any change is bad (because they are already 'leet), is based on (typically) neckbeards with nothing but time on their hands get jealous that someone may have an opportunity to keep up with the Joneses. They believe that the game is "fine" because they already have done the grind, and therefore it protects their most elite status. Ironically, against all their arguments on the forum, they are not arguing for 'play the game as you would like, you don't need to be G5 rated' and instead, they are really saying, "I want to protect my status because if you 'catch me' then I somehow now lose enjoyment for how I chose to play"

Just to counter that, in a polite, devil's advocate way, a lot of the time I see people complaining about 'the grind' and is often, it is claimed, not about them personally but they understand how off putting it is for the newcomer. This is rather undone by the amount of people that faced the same (if not worse) challenges and are still playing to this day. So when the ones you describe as 'Elitist' make these comments, I don;'t believe they're trying to protect their status, I think what they're saying is, we all did it, you can too. I don't think there is a lot wrong with that.

The 'just play the game' argument I guess, is a natural occurrence from people who did start this game years ago, and have seen change after change come along. It's not like, say, RDR2 where the game was released as a complete package, one day with very little adjustment made since.

As has been cited before, someone buying the game today must be tempted to watch a Sidey to Conda in a day YT vid and follow that.

 

[MickyG1982]

Nobody doing organized pvp wants an "i win button".
That would completely undermine the whole point of competative tounament style play.

Only if I lose...

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

Only if I lose...

I read that three times and still not sure i get your point.
I lose often. Got no problem with it at all.
If you want to git gud in the pvp scene you very early on have to embrace that rebuy screen.

Tbh i would rather fight someone better than me any day.
Sure I'll lose but I'll also learn something.
Thats worth a hundred rebuys

I'll add further, neither do i want to win using cheese tactics, cheats or crutches.
I want to be skillfull enough to beat an opponent fair and square and the higher skilled they also are the more I enjoy it.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

I don’t disagree with tweaking the current rates of material drops, and I do think that broadening the material rewards for missions would be a positive change.

I do disagree with making materials and/or engineering available for pure credits. In my opinion, subjective, it would overly simplify the game and be a negative.

I’m genuinely not trying to be facetious, but if your only sole interest in the game is pure PvP, the better angle would be to hammer FDev for improvements to CQC. I’m not into CQC, but is that not literally your deathmatch game right there? In the ‘core’ game PvP is but one sphere of gameplay that you can participate in as part of the whole, in the same way that players who are interested in only trade or exploration must make at least tiny concessions to combat due to the risk however small of hostile encounters from NPCs or other players depending on your chosen mode. I know that’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison but I think it helps illustrate my perspective.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

You're making a lot of sense there man, as did lorenzo.
It's a topic given much thought and discussion throughout the pvp community for years.

My personal opinion is that firstly although a lot of existing players have played through the various shortcomings and persevered(as i myself did), it is probably equally valid looking at the number of game copies sold that a lot of potential players gave up for various reasons.

My own kids started plaing but both said it was overly repetative regardless of how much fun the flight model was.
The word grind is bandied about quite often i think "un-necessary repetition" is a better description of most peoples complaints.

As for cqc, well we have hammered FD for years to enhance CQC to no avail.
Tbh though, unless i can take my main game ships into the arena its appeal to me is very limited.

It just seems too arcady with the powerups and whatnot.
Fun for sure but not really anything like fully engineered main game ships going at it in battles of agility, aggression and attrition especially in the rocks.

As for the percieved downside of oversimplification that a unified economic model could entail, i honestly believe the potential new gameplay that would grow from a player driven economy would easily offset or eclipse any negative consequences.

I fully realise pvp is only a small segment of the community, although I will qualify that it also represents the highest skillset and game knowlege of any genre currently on offer.
We also accept other gameplay styles must also make adjustments to accomodate differing interests and game limitations so us whining about having to mine/trade/dune buggy or collect to support our habit may seem trivial.
But, when the crux of our issue is an arbitrarily placed division of commodities that bares no resemblance to a realistic economy it becomes all the more bitter pill to swallow.

 

[csbeau1969]

I have been participating in station rescue missions in Sol, while also working Federation Rank. Of course, this could be viewed as a grind but it has a storied purpose with context... making it fun, at least to me. Or... I could just be procrastinating on the continued engineering unlocks (as my goal remains to return to Colonia with its engineers unlocked & a Guardian FSD booster to shorten the return journey.)

Based on the Sol rescue experience (I play in Open), am now curious on the psychology of gankers, .

 

[Cosmo]

Seconded. Less grind is always good.

 

[fu9ar]

The gold farmer complaints have been around since the original days of MMOs and are an elitist thing. The basic premise, which is common amongst forum trolls who believe any change is bad (because they are already 'leet), is based on (typically) neckbeards with nothing but time on their hands get jealous that someone may have an opportunity to keep up with the Joneses. They believe that the game is "fine" because they already have done the grind, and therefore it protects their most elite status. Ironically, against all their arguments

But I haven't done the grind. The grind is in your mind.

 

[Rat Catcher]

But I haven't done the grind. The grind is in your mind.

It is a lost cause... When others who debate the concept are descibed thus "is based on (typically) neckbeards" there is nothing to be said, as the "forum trolls" have spoken.

Are you having fun? I am, and oddly there is no grind for me either - but, of course, I already have triple elite on this account, but not the same on my others

 

[csbeau1969]

@fu9ar, I have noticed that your posts continue to be filled with vitriol. So even if I may agree with a few of your comments, it is clear that your intent is not a fulsome discussion. Your views have been noted.

 

[fu9ar]

Just because my posts make you angry doesn't mean I was angry when I wrote them.

 

[csbeau1969]

Grind is in the mind of the beholder. However, it comes down to the amount of time required to achieve a task. It is clear that there are views in both camps. The time to reward ratio for a divided economy (credits, manufactured, raw & encoded data) is always open for question. ED has both breadth & depth. My preference is to experience the galaxy doing exploration, trading, bounty hunting and (recently) rescue missions. I would like to see the economies linked, or the balance adjusted further in the materials economy. It is also clear that a few (likely already through what I might view as grind) disagree; such is life and internet forums,

 

[csbeau1969]

PS: in no way am I angry. I do, however, enjoy a good discussion or debate. I served in the military and have lived and worked overseas (business) for decades; my anger threshold is high. The exception being the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few; but that too is the real world (and has nothing to do with the ED forums)

 

[Rat Catcher]

I do, however, enjoy a good discussion or debate

Indeed, I believe a number of us may also, but when referred to as "Neckbeards" among other things, it is not exactly going to promote 'healthy' debate as the ground rules have already been laid out for all to see.

I disagree with the premise of 'grind' as presented, solely as it is created by the player, otherwise, surely I would be complaining also
Oddly, I play 4 accounts, had there been any massive grind perceived by me I'd have been very unlikely to play more than a single account.

There are a number of players with multiple accounts, strange isn't it?

 

[csbeau1969]

@Rat Catcher, I was not referring to either you or @fu9ar as neckbeards. As mentioned in another post, my comment was not addressed to any specific person. I try to avoid personal attacks on strangers in forums; life is too short.

I was referring to the general comment that I have heard related to MMOs for years. I never understood why others get annoyed by how others choose to enjoy themselves. I am old enough (50+) to have experienced the beginning of the pc game genre. I have been a top tier raider and sim racer. So long as it is not a cheat that violates the coding of the game, I could care less if someone has the chance to advance differently than I did. I enjoy my game, they enjoy thiers. My journey should not require that thiers be the same.

Games are for escapism, fun and enjoyment from what we often must encounter or deal with in the real world.

Apologies if it seems that I was targeting you with that comment. I was simply stating where I have seen the comment (gold farmers) in the past, and it usually originated with the elite raiders in other (many) MMOs. From a time when I had more time on my hands.

Side note, I have lived and worked in developing nations. Those "gold farmers" were often a way for someone to feed thier family. Not always, and surely not altruistic. However, if it helps someone survive in the real world, so be it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

@Rat Catcher, I was not referring to either you or @fu9ar as neckbeards. As mentioned in another post, my comment was not addressed to any specific person. I try to avoid personal attacks on strangers in forums; life is too short.

I was aware that it wasn't aimed at anyone here specifically - but just a derogatory term you felt was needed to indicate your stance in the discussion?

We are all different - thankfully - no offense was taken as it was not a directed insult, even if I do have a particularly fine beard

 

[csbeau1969]

Side note, I actually did a quick internet search as to whether it was considered a derogatory term before using it. It is a pejorative term, which I was using it to show contempt for a certain type of behavior and not to insult any person on the forum.

In hindsight, I could have said the same without using the term. Lesson learned.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Side note, I actually did a quick internet search as to whether it was considered a derogatory term before using it. It is a pejorative term, which I was using it to show contempt for a certain type of behavior and not to insult any person on the forum.

In hindsight, I could have said the same without using the term. Lesson learned.

No worries...
If I could cast the first stone - but have to leave that to another, I'm afraid.

I defend my right to play as I wish, will argue against change to benefit only a single segment of the playstyles here quite vociferously. Otherwise I just play the game, have made a few friends along the way with whom I'd fly alongside any time, some avid PvP players, others PvE - but enrich the game, for me, by having them along.

On topic, probably because I 'just play' so am happy to give time to drop into any USS / HGE along my route, spend time having a ball in Haz Res & CZs, will take any wetwork missions offered that are not against 'friendly' factions (a variety of both NPC & PMF) and take missions that offer mats, enjoy poodling around mining, surface mining and shooting the Crystal Spires, gathering materials in normal play is just that, normal.

I doubt my open-ended play would interest many others, but there is still much on my 'todo' list in the game before I even come close to 'done it all' - and we have Odyssey in the near future (yes, I'll be playing the alpha) which will lengthen my list, provide additional opportunities to gather new and existing materials and a bunch of 'foot' engineers too

 

[Sunyavadin]

I don't get your defense on synthesis. Do you really use it reliably (and need it) in PvE?
About the only thing I synth is limpets in case I forgot some while hunting USS.

Life support in no-canopy Beagle runs?

 

[CMDR Morkar]

I would be happy if you could buy and sell raw materials like sulphur or simple techstuff which should be commonly available for money. The mechanic would feel a lot more realistic and less gamey. Plus it would allow people who aren't in for the grind to get more easy access to simple stuff. On the other hand I think that thargoid and guardian stuff or technology based on it should never be available for purchase to let it stand out as a rarity.