Relative Mouse mode toggle

jable

J
Relative Mouse ON is basically required to fly with flight assist mode off.

Relative Mouse OFF is basically required to fly with flight assist mode on.

Entering supercruise enables flight assist mode, so every time you enter supercruise you can't really control your ship.

Swapping requires going into your options > controls > mouse > toggle > esc, esc, esc.

Pretty horrible user experience.

There should either be:
  • A button that toggles relative mode on or off OR
  • Two settings, "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist ON", "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist OFF".
 

CmdrOps

C
Tying to FA makes no sense. Relative mode simply doesn't provide a constant input value over a long timespan, that's all. If you e.g. wanted to apply constant yaw/pitch in dogfight, you would have the same problems. It just happens that you're fine with rather short bursts of movement.

FA on in supercruise is not the reason why it sucks. With FA off, you would also have to manually keep applying yaw/pitch/whatever thrust. What you want in supercruise is a constant input value from your device, this can only be achieved with absolute mode (relative-off). And this is how joysticks and wheels work. Relative is standard for mouse inputs in all games, simply imagine you want to walk a circle in pretty much any game, with a mouse.

So basically a toggle is the only useful solution here.
 

Red Zephyr

Red Zephyr
No! No more keybinding!

Your second option is perfect.

Just make separate options in the controls to have relative mouse for FA On and FA Off, so the FA toggle key will also toggle mouse relativity.
 

FatherNature

F
jable said:
Relative Mouse ON is basically required to fly with flight assist mode off.

Relative Mouse OFF is basically required to fly with flight assist mode on.

Entering supercruise enables flight assist mode, so every time you enter supercruise you can't really control your ship.

Swapping requires going into your options > controls > mouse > toggle > esc, esc, esc.

Pretty horrible user experience.

There should either be:
  • A button that toggles relative mode on or off OR
  • Two settings, "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist ON", "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist OFF".
Click to expand...
I had the same necessity to fly in supercruise. I just now found a solution that works for me.

I will first explain what i need relative mode on and off for. I play with relative on so that any input is a moment and not constant, this works well in normal space and especially with FA OFF but, when in supercruise and you got something behind you or even for a "loop of shame" situation i just put up a sad face and start to make one and a half km with my mouse, this is even worse with a big ship like anaconda and such.

My solution: i just realized that if i bind the W, A, S, and D keys (that i normaly use for thrust up, down, left and right) added with an alternative key like SHIFT or ALT, i get a secondary way to have a constant input on-demand so that i don't need to switch between the two relative modes.

Hope it helped.
 

Cluster Fox

Cluster Fox
We need something else which would actually fulfill the intent of the original post without adding a toggle on the mouse mode.
This is not a control specific issue. It doesn't matter if you use a Joystick, Mouse or Controller. Everyone experiences a toggle on the way they AIM when toggling FA.
While switching FA to a different mechanic for Thrust is desirable, it's usually a problem to have a different mechanic to AIM.

Let me explain:
  • Relative Mouse controls Position in FA ON, and Angular Velocity FA OFF. (1)
  • Joystick and Normal mouse control Angular Velocity FA ON and Angular Acceleration FA OFF. (2) This makes Position very hard to control with a joystick or in Normal mouse with FA OFF.
First way to do it is three options for FA:
  1. FA ON,
  2. Thrust-Assist OFF & Rotation-Assist ON - (New mode which would allow Normal mouse and joystick behave like Relative mouse in FA OFF - getting rid of some wobble)
  3. FA OFF
Second way to do it is to tie it to Rotational Correction so that the option would also toggle Rotation-Assist ON or OFF while in FA OFF.

Third way to do it is that Relative Rotation replaces Relative Mouse, becomes an FA OFF only thing and applies to all control schemes including Joystick and Gamepad.

This would solve a lot of problems with FA OFF wobble, and is a simple way to address a 3-4 year old issue. Issue common to ALL control modes.

Please Frontier! This could make partial FA OFF so much more enjoyable and natural. Normal Mouse would behave like Relative Mouse in FA OFF (or not depending on rotation assist setting - at least there's the choice). It's possible the Relative Mouse option would even become obsolete.

Disclaimer : I have flown with Keyboard & Mouse, HOTAS and Gamepad.

(1) One movement of the mouse (position A to postion B) makes the ship move to a stable position (FA ON) or velocity (FA OFF).
(2) One movement of the joystick (stick angle A to stick angle B) makes the ship move either in velocity (FA ON) or acceleration (FA OFF), with FA ON you need to move the stick back to center to get a stable position, Same with normal mouse, you have to move the mouse from A to B then back to A to get a stable position with FA ON. I won't get into the FA OFF explanation of this mode unless someone wants it, but this explains why it's so wobbly.
 
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Vardaugas

Vardaugas
All they really need is a tick box option to enable this automatic toggle on flight assist toggle. Then whenever flight assist is switched, the mouse control switches, too. Shouldn't be too complicated and with the tick box in the control options, use of that feature is decided by the player. Convenience and control. I'd very much like that.
 

Cluster Fox

Cluster Fox
Agreed you should be able to choose. But you can't make a solution for KB&M only as the root cause is not about "relative mouse" or not. The control switch is a "feature" of FA ON / OFF and every single control mode has the same behaviour (I'd call it an issue).

What we want is a choice to keep Rotation Assist or not.
ON would make aiming (mouse) behave exactly the same whether you got FA ON or FA OFF. - This is the desired outcome for combat
OFF would give us the current realistic but wobbly behaviour for hardcore pilots.

If you limit it to a toggle for relative mouse, all of a sudden KB&M users have a very powerful feature that no other control mode can use.
 
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jukibom

jukibom
+1 I don't even use mouse but FA-off is awesome and everyone should be able to use it without weird issues like this.

I feel like half the reason so few of these suggestions get picked up is because these threads tend to spiral into mad insanely complicated requests. A simple toggle binding in this case would help a lot of people, clearly.
 

Tryst

Tryst
If you use VA, this could be done for you easily.
No need to set up a voice command, just add keybinds for FA and SC.
When it receives the FA or SC keystroke, ED client will do the normal action but VA will also intercept the keystroke and perform a second keystroke to turn RM on or off.
That way, you can set it to toggle the RM on or off at the same time as the FA key.

SC would also toggle RM off if you used FA to turn it on. But only if you used a script to determine the current state of RM toggle.
That can be done in VA apparently, but i have not been very sucessful in doing it myself due to my limited knowledge of scripting.
If you toggle it yourself, you have to set a keybind in VA to the same key as you use for RM to tell VA to change the state of the toggle so it can keep track of it. Similarly, the boolean toggle state variable has to be updated each time it is turned on and off by the FA toggle.
 

Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell
Vardaugas said:
All they really need is a tick box option to enable this automatic toggle on flight assist toggle. Then whenever flight assist is switched, the mouse control switches, too. Shouldn't be too complicated and with the tick box in the control options, use of that feature is decided by the player. Convenience and control. I'd very much like that.
Click to expand...
This.
 

Fake Newts

F
Cluster Fox said:
This would solve a lot of problems with FA OFF wobble, and is a simple way to address a 3-4 year old issue. Issue common to ALL control modes.
Click to expand...

Learning to fly smoothly in FA off has been a rite of passage for years and although I'm usually in favour of accessibility options I don't actually think your idea is a great one. Many PvP FAoff lords have come up with all different types of inputs. Part of the joy of it is learning how to counter your rotation and embracing the lower amount of input required to aim, as you can let your ship do the work, so to speak.

I'm a joystick user and aim is much easier in FA off once it clicks and learning it was satisfying. Having the same aim response between modes would take that satisfaction away, and is missing out on one of the unsung values of FA off which is that, by and large, you can keep your rotationals centred and achieve more with less effort. If people are struggling with aim using a HOTAS I recommend making sure you have yaw on X to avoid roll noise and keep your granular aim input on the same plane.

Mouse users have no physical springs to centre their input, hence Relative Mouse Mode. What they need is a toggle or context-activated switch so that SC isn't miserable. That's all.

Don't dumb down FA off, just practice more. FA off 'wobble' as you call it isn't an inevitability, it's teething problems as you learn a new and satisfying skill.
 

space voyager

space voyager
jable said:
Relative Mouse ON is basically required to fly with flight assist mode off.

Relative Mouse OFF is basically required to fly with flight assist mode on.

Entering supercruise enables flight assist mode, so every time you enter supercruise you can't really control your ship.

Swapping requires going into your options > controls > mouse > toggle > esc, esc, esc.

Pretty horrible user experience.

There should either be:
  • A button that toggles relative mode on or off OR
  • Two settings, "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist ON", "Relative Mouse Mode for Flight Assist OFF".
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I haven't found this thread when creating my own a year later, but better late then never. Anyway, a great suggestion, I'd love to have a toggle for relative mouse.
 
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