From my experience with Planetside 2 - it's not automatically a good thing when fans become devs...
Request for a "Player Council", Resurrected DDF, Streamer Representation to Dev track, Focused Feedback or Similar Directed Community Engagement
- Thread starter Hydrino
- Start date
I have to wonder why they abandoned the focused feedback model.
Mining 2.0 is, in my mind (and I don't even like mining) one of the most successful feature updates - if not the most successful - the game has seen. Focused feedback led to a lot of excellent discussion and it shows. I dunno why they abandoned it, except out of fear when they started teasing Powerplay changes and floating open-only discussions.
Regardless, Focused Feedback worked in my opinion and I think the numbers are there to prove it worked for FDev, too.
A blank 'alpha' forum and a broken issue tracker are fast proving useless.
You want to solve the gene sampler in a way that benefits the game and its attraction to new customers?
Focus Feedback on it.
You want to nail down taxi times, supercruise, and time loss expectations?
Focus Feedback on it.
You want to create an expansion that has the explicit goal of attracting lapsed players back?
Focus Feedback on why they left.
Mining 2.0 is, in my mind (and I don't even like mining) one of the most successful feature updates - if not the most successful - the game has seen. Focused feedback led to a lot of excellent discussion and it shows. I dunno why they abandoned it, except out of fear when they started teasing Powerplay changes and floating open-only discussions.
Regardless, Focused Feedback worked in my opinion and I think the numbers are there to prove it worked for FDev, too.
A blank 'alpha' forum and a broken issue tracker are fast proving useless.
You want to solve the gene sampler in a way that benefits the game and its attraction to new customers?
Focus Feedback on it.
You want to nail down taxi times, supercruise, and time loss expectations?
Focus Feedback on it.
You want to create an expansion that has the explicit goal of attracting lapsed players back?
Focus Feedback on why they left.
No thanks.
If we have to have people 'representing us', then surely it should be the people who actually make the best of the content in the game itself. Like those behind Turning the Wheel, the DSSA, GMP, Distant Worlds 3305, Buckyballers, Fuel Rats, Hull Seal, Elite Retribution etc. Those are the people who know how to work with the content Fdev provide, and could give the best feedback on what those taking part in their events like and dislike. Not some YT folks, most of whom rarely create content in the game itself and therefore aren't really the best ones to ask in my opinion.
Are the general public that paid to "alpha test" actually required to test stuff, fill in forms and provide information at regular intervals, etc. Or is it a pre-release money grab that makes a bunch of people feel good that the get to be "alpha testers" while there is an actual alpha test going on with people that are actually evaluating the game using a systematic methodology?
I'm not trying to be cynical or anything. I really don't know. Just curious.
I'm not trying to be cynical or anything. I really don't know. Just curious.
I think that's actually a very strong case against the Focused Feedback model, since mining was one of the few major Beyond features which didn't have a full-scale Focused Feedback discussion dedicated to it.
The main innovation which makes two of the tools worthwhile - core-specific gems - wasn't introduced until mid-way through the 3.3 Beta, in quite a hurry (they didn't have market descriptions for a couple of patches), to fix the major problem with it. That may or may not have been them picking up on a player suggestion in the Beta feedback: it was suggested before they did it, they might still have come up with it independently rather than picking up on a couple of posts buried deep in the threads.
The actual balancing of it so that all three of the new tools are worthwhile but not overpowered relative to each other or the original lasers then took two years of iteration in the live environment.
I'd certainly agree it's in a good place now and - while I don't like mining either and haven't touched the new tools since that Beta - a big success, but I don't think various bits of random theorycrafting off an outline plan before we had anything to play with would have got it to that state faster. People are just really bad at imagining how things are going to work without having something to try out.
So, so , so much this.
I suggested the same thing not long ago
Oh god no.
Last thing Elite needs is some jumped-up backseat drivers getting a taste of power.
Last thing Elite needs is some jumped-up backseat drivers getting a taste of power.
Contrary to popular belief, Devs do watch streams and YT vids. I know because I recognize some names in chat, and while they don't always say much, they are watching. There was a lot of activity early in the Odyssey alpha.
I have no doubt that they gather feedback not only from the streamer, but from the audience too.
Whether a streamer or Youtuber is someone that can give good feedback, is something only FD could decide. Player "councils" don't go anywhere and will always leave parts of the community feeling alienated no matter who you select for them. Better to use the forum for some Focussed Feedback topics instead IMHO.
I have no doubt that they gather feedback not only from the streamer, but from the audience too.
Whether a streamer or Youtuber is someone that can give good feedback, is something only FD could decide. Player "councils" don't go anywhere and will always leave parts of the community feeling alienated no matter who you select for them. Better to use the forum for some Focussed Feedback topics instead IMHO.
All that comes to mind is design by committee.
I understand why people are apprehensive about suggestions like this, but I think Elite is a special case. The fact that the Design Discussion Forum was so successful (and the Focused Feedback threads from a few years ago, as well) is proof that engaging with the community can be a good thing, that it is not a hopeless endeavour, doomed to failure... I wasn't a DDF member, but I remember reading those threads after the fact, and I loved the way people were able to discuss different viewpoints patiently and politely, in fact it was a breath of fresh air compared to practically everything else in this world.
Elite's playerbase is fairly unique in that we are typically older, and dare I say more mature... we are all united in our desire to make the game as good as possible, and even when we vehemently disagree with each other, we can usually at least articulate why. I'm sure there are lots of video game developers out there who wish they had a playerbase that was as good as this one... there are players among us who in real life are experts in their field, and who would be more than willing to let Frontier pick their brains for the benefit of the game, so it strikes me as a terrible missed opportunity to ignore this vast reservoir of knowledge, and squander the potential that it holds.
I also understand why people do not want streamers and youtubers to be their unaccountable representatives, I myself doubt that any of them could be relied upon to speak for anyone but themselves. But if ever I made a suggestion on the forums, and everyone loved it and thought it was a great idea that would dramatically improve the game, I definitely think that ObsidianAnt could be relied upon to mention it in his next video, because that's literally what he does... whereas Frontier would probably miss it completely, they're too busy making the game to pay attention to any forum drama (even if it's the good kind of drama that could make the game better for all!)
And as for the mining rework, as Ian Doncaster said, Frontier made that themselves without any input from the community - but having done such a good job developing it, Frontier then implemented it in a way that made Subsurface Deposit Mining a complete waste of time, and then they made LTDs and Void Opals insanely profitable compared to everything else, and then they took two years to rebalance it and put it right...
...Whereas if the community had been responsible for the mining rework, we would probably have come up with something a lot less impressive, because we would not have dared ask for 'blowing up asteroids', we would assume that that was simply too difficult for Frontier to do. However, there's no way we would have made any part of 'our' rework a waste of time, or obscenely overpowered... we wouldn't allow each other to make those mistakes, if any community members had suggested making a new commodity that was potentially worth millions of credits per ton, they would have been immediately shouted down by everyone else, and rightly so.
Just because other games have unsuccessfully tried things like this, doesn't mean that Elite Dangerous shouldn't try it... because Elite is not like other games, the DDF and Focused Feedback threads are proof of that. It seems to me that people are reluctant to even consider a 'player council' or something, for fear that it would be a disaster (design by committee, indeed!) But we already tried letting the devs do their own thing, we know that all too often it ends up unbalanced and / or lacklustre... whereas if Frontier listened more to their community, then maybe some of those mis-steps could be prevented, and maybe the game as a whole could be ten times better than it is.
I think it's worth a try.
I consider myself to be a veteran player after thousands of hours, and when I watch the devs play it seems clear I understand the game far better than they do (last livestream one of the devs was completely unaware the compass points to the landing pad, for example). Still, I hadn't noticed a thing about the galmap after a dozen hours or so in Alpha. Meanwhile 'full-time explorers' figured it out nearly instantly. It really shows how the community has created specialist groups with knowledge and understanding far beyond what pretty much any dev can reasonably be expected to have. Its a shame they dont do anything with the knowledge the player base has.
having this kind of group implies that the development of the game is going to be driven from the ground up ... that hasn't been the case since like year 1 when their obligations to care about the kickstarters ended.
This game's development is dictated from up top. Having a ddf type group talking to devs or community managers etc is just not going to work. It's not how things seem to be organized.
At best, such a group would be treated as unpaid QC testers. Which, maybe that's good enough if that's fun for them. It's going to be a far cry from impacting the direction of the game's narrative and new features that some wish the original DDF had been.
This game's development is dictated from up top. Having a ddf type group talking to devs or community managers etc is just not going to work. It's not how things seem to be organized.
At best, such a group would be treated as unpaid QC testers. Which, maybe that's good enough if that's fun for them. It's going to be a far cry from impacting the direction of the game's narrative and new features that some wish the original DDF had been.
As all of the posts above have been written by you people yourselves and not by your representatives who should speak for you I have chosen to ignore them as insignificant and irrelevant, if Id read them in the first place that is.
Quite a few tell us all on the forum. Some even tell us 3 or 4 times a year. Some even tell us why they left in 2015. Less popular now though is telling us why they will be leaving when XYZ game comes out and kills ED next month.
That is the popular belief. The problem is they don't seem to watch the forums...even the odd 'I hate you all' reply would be better than this. And YT audiences are echo chambers of fans all wanting to be mentioned in stream by the 'celebrity'.
Quite a few tell us all on the forum. Some even tell us 3 or 4 times a year. Some even tell us why they left in 2015. Less popular now though is telling us why they will be leaving when XYZ game comes out and kills ED next month.
That is the popular belief. The problem is they don't seem to watch the forums...even the odd 'I hate you all' reply would be better than this. And YT audiences are echo chambers of fans all wanting to be mentioned in stream by the 'celebrity'.
Is there a vaccine for this particular influenza??!
I humbly accept the invitation to the exalted circle of know-betters because I know best of all.
Do you even play the game?