Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

FD's decision to always online was a last minute decision, My impression was they thought that stellar forge could be on the client but in the end its server side forcing the always on line with the advantage they can tweak server side without pushing a new client. I imagine that also reduces the download sizes of updates. P2P was not, at that point they had no idea how successful ED would be so they went for the cheapest option. I remember early on them having problems with stations (docking) and having to actually have some server authentication.
You're going to have to cite sources for that claim mate, because as far as I am concerned it was always going to be an online game, backed up by P2P links - the whole "offline" drama that unfolded when the ****storm kicked off by the backers was only pacified by FDEV claiming they would try to sort something out, but the whole underlying model was online/P2P to cut costs ... There was no subscription model, claimed right from the outset, and a P2P model (backed by server arbiters) was the only solution.

Edit: the only reason they had issues right at the start was that the netcode was shockingly bad ..

I believe ED's p2p connection was long planned and key to their route to release, but I seem to remember they talked of unforeseen issues arising when they went live with alpha, something to do with the quadrillion different routers everyone has.
That was my understanding too, and yes, while FDEVs team were talented, they can't code around stupid. (aka end users doing dumb things with hardware)
 
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You're going to have to cite sources for that claim mate, because as far as I am concerned it was always going to be an online game, backed up by P2P links - the whole "offline" drama that unfolded when the ****storm kicked off by the backers was only pacified by FDEV claiming they would try to sort something out, but the whole underlying model was online/P2P to cut costs ... There was no subscription model, claimed right from the outset, and a P2P model (backed by server arbiters) was the only solution.

Edit: the only reason they had issues right at the start was that the netcode was shockingly bad ..

Yup.

However, i smile at the irony of one of the biggest ED whales posting in the SC thread :D
 
Yup.

However, i smile at the irony of one of the biggest ED whales posting in the SC thread :D
Oi .. you calling me fat ?! ;-)

Believe it nor not, I was going to buy at the top end in SC as well, but the thing that truly put me off (apart from CRoberts) was the fact that it was Newtonian physics in space, and ED was based on 84 Elite, a game that won my childhood. Oh for that 1 small thing saved me, cos I mean, look at it now ... 8 years (?) later and there's not much to show. I feel bad for the backers, but do hope it is eventually released (more space games is good!)
 
From the KS page
Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).
 
That was my understanding too, and yes, while FDEVs team were talented, they can't code around stupid. (aka end users doing dumb things with hardware)

True enough my dear Liqua - but I also seem to remember us alpha testers having to literally screenshot logs to send to FD when they couldn't retrieve them, rewriting config files to actually function, and having to disable every security system known to man to actually achieve a P2P connection.

Not to mention the absolute wondrous delights of cascaded routers back then, and an implementation of punch-through that absolutely didn't.

These things were, in time, fixed to a greater or lesser degree.

SC still hasn't been fixed.
 
From the KS page
Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).

I don't think anyone is contesting ED having the single player and then being removed.

The argument was about whether FD decided to do the P2P stuff at the last minute.
 
That's one of the main flaws of p2p, it relies on each client connection. Also it doesnt scale with players in the same instance (the traffic increases exponentially). That's why i disagree strongly with this architecture, for a real time massive multiplayer game. It's quick and easy to implement, and fits the budget and small team of FDEV at the time, so it's a fair decision i guess from the management as they did release successfully. But "massive multiplayer" it's not (it's "asynchronous multi" if you want, your actions are indirectly seen by the other instances) but that's it. And i maintain my last minute addition, that presentation linked by MoleHD (which i had seen too) strongly reinforces that argument, they really did it to save time and budget: this means it's not the core of the game design (which is something you pitch to producers when you want a budget..) - it's peripheral, and honestly they are maybe right as it was thought mostly as a solo game (as power play was a complete afterthought too, lets be honest, i still believe they are talented, so that cannot come from them as a really thought out process). Core elements of the game design were clearly the Stellar Forge, VR (definitely thought out from the game concept), flight mechanics carried over more or less from the previous Elite iterations, the trading system (also carried over), and of course iconic stations with the mail slot.

Dual Universe by contrast is centered around its network code, it's a core element. It should be for SC too, since a lot of things were promised back then, and with that kind of pitch one would tend to start with a really strong and innovative multiplayer network engine, and then build around that (and of course bartender AI and fluid physics for your glass of wine would come much much later in an expansion maybe)... That shows the difference in management of priorities between these companies.
I guess P2P brings more instability - especially when the "host" has bad connection. But client-server can have crappy connection and rubberbanding too. Seems to me P2P is better suited for small lobbies.
 
I guess P2P brings more instability - especially when the "host" has bad connection. But client-server can have crappy connection and rubberbanding too. Seems to me P2P is better suited for small lobbies.
Kinda yeah, also rubber banding is a problem with "naive" netcode that will not do any kind of lag compensation (like, lets take a random pick, Star Citizen). There are ways around that but it needs really a strong dev for the netcode and to manage its ties to the game engine itself. To be fair very few games achieve something decent there.
In 9 years CiG have not touched one line of their netcode, though there are items on the roadmap ("SERVER MESHING" or the new "HOLY GRAIL" that will change everything, again) and one item pointing at a reduction in network traffic (object marshalling format - they were using XML which is maybe the worst choice ever for a game).. But i did notice that last item was on the roadmap for a few years and bumped away at regular intervals...

SC still hasn't been fixed.
We could argue it hasn't been started, on that side of things. The real hard part ("server meshing", and client sync with the various servers) is still far away on the roadmap...
 
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From the KS page
Update! The above is the intended single player experience. However it will be possible to have a single player game without connecting to the galaxy server. You won't get the features of the evolving galaxy (although we will investigate minimising those differences) and you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate).
Yes, that was added to the KS page after the drama of people realising "solo" meant online. The original intention was always to be permanently online, utilising P2P links like they do/did with console games (I suspect that's where the idea came from - console games - as FDEV were pushlishing to that platform) At any rate, the solo-offline drama took an expected turn (sadly) just prior to release when they announced it wasn't possible for offline, and that's why refundgate started ...
 
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Reminds me of the ED crowd who were crowing that one should use your imagination to fill in the blanks .. "it's a sandbox, you can literally (sic) do what you want, you just need to use your imagination" ... yeah, more like use your brain to overcome the fact that there isn't a game. I will admit, SC looks glorious, and I hope that ED follows suit at some point and increases the detail/resolutions to counter, and the problems mentioned sound similar to ED's initial issues - there is hope for SC, but I ask, at what cost?
 
So far - around 500 million dollars.
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator

I thought it was a moderately decent take on SC, even if he didnt dwell for too long on the technical issues, until the guy goes and says "[CIG] could sell and licence core technologies they are developing to other interested game companies".

I mean, other than selling the business model and monetizing principles, that is just nuts. The disconnect with reality and dream.txting is too huge for some fans to recover from. It´s almost literally like living in a different dimension.
 
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I thought it was a moderately decent take on SC until they guy goes and says "[CIG] could sell and licence core technologies they are developing to other interested game companies".

I mean, other than selling the business model and monetizing principles that is just nuts. The disconnect with reality and dream.txting is too huge for some fans. It´s almsot literally like living ina different dimension.
Yeah - they have nice art assets. The engine they run them on ... not so much.
 
I thought it was a moderately decent take on SC, even if he didnt dwell for too long on the technical issues, until they guy goes and says "[CIG] could sell and licence core technologies they are developing to other interested game companies".

I mean, other than selling the business model and monetizing principles that is just nuts. The disconnect with reality and dream.txting is too huge for some fans to recover from. It´s almost literally like living in a different dimension.
Total delusion. They want it to be so it must be.
 
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