General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Robin of Spiritwood]

We have been noticing a very disturbing and concerning trend. We are no longer seeing deaths amongst the elderly population and persons with pre-existing medical conditions, but we are seeing deaths among persons even in the age group of the 30s.

There's spaces in the ICU units on the bright side. From the deaths, on the other hand. The predictable consequence of a worse variant.

The Brazilian situation is improving after they started better non pharmacological measures. We should be able to replicate that here more easily. Next few days will be bad, compared to before, but nothing like overseas hopefully.

It took 2 weeks to squash the last spike with a lesser variant, and we are 1 week from overload. That's time to go for a field hospital if we can't repurpose a facility and divert extra O2 supplies from Industrial Gases company. Might have to shortchange industry a bit. But it's still under control.

 

[Factabulous]

Interesting (to me) piece exploring the possibility of the virus escaping the Wuhan labs

Origin of CovidâââFollowing the Clues

The Covid-19 pandemic has disrupted lives the world over for more than a year. Its death toll will soon reach three million people. Yet the origin of pandemic remains uncertain: the political agendasâ¦

nicholaswade.medium.com

ofc may be a high-class conspiracy piece, but he's at least made it plausible. I hope others are doing more digging because the source of this epidemic still seems very unclear.

 

[Arry]

Interesting (to me) piece exploring the possibility of the virus escaping the Wuhan labs

Origin of CovidâââFollowing the Clues

The Covid-19 pandemic has disrupted lives the world over for more than a year. Its death toll will soon reach three million people. Yet the origin of pandemic remains uncertain: the political agendasâ¦

nicholaswade.medium.com

ofc may be a high-class conspiracy piece, but he's at least made it plausible. I hope others are doing more digging because the source of this epidemic still seems very unclear.

Nope.

He has been discredited a number of times. It would seem that he manipulates the facts/data, to fit his own theories.


"Over a hundred geneticists and biologists categorically dismissed Wade's view of race in a joint letter published in The New York Times on 8 August 2014:"

Wade juxtaposes an incomplete and inaccurate account of our research on human genetic differences with speculation that recent natural selection has led to worldwide differences in Intelligence quotient (IQ) test results, political institutions and economic development. We reject Wade's implication that our findings substantiate his guesswork.[14]

 

[Stigbob]

I think the proximity of the Wuhan lab has more to do with ease of access to simply buying exotic samples from the wet market rather than having to mount costly and time consuming international expeditions.

 

[Northpin]

Interesting (to me) piece exploring the possibility of the virus escaping the Wuhan labs

Origin of CovidâââFollowing the Clues

The Covid-19 pandemic has disrupted lives the world over for more than a year. Its death toll will soon reach three million people. Yet the origin of pandemic remains uncertain: the political agendasâ¦

nicholaswade.medium.com

ofc may be a high-class conspiracy piece, but he's at least made it plausible. I hope others are doing more digging because the source of this epidemic still seems very unclear.

Heh, as someone that always said that the origin of the virus could not be ruled out or ruled in as artificial (no solid evidence pro nor solid evidence against it) and i also said that Nature letter dated March 2020 was dubious - i find this article oddly satisfying.

And worrisome. Extremely worrisome.
And I'm not sure we want proofs, that show artificial origin, made public.
Wars were started for reasons weaker than that.

 

[Factabulous]

And I'm not sure we want proofs, that show artificial origin, made public.
Wars were started for reasons weaker than that.

Who would start the war though? If the article is correct then it was US funded research in a Chinese lab ... maybe the Russians would need to start the war

 

[Synkreto]

Heh, as someone that always said that the origin of the virus could not be ruled out or ruled in as artificial (no solid evidence pro nor solid evidence against it) and i also said that Nature letter dated March 2020 was dubious - i find this article oddly satisfying.

And worrisome. Extremely worrisome.
And I'm not sure we want proofs, that show artificial origin, made public.
Wars were started for reasons weaker than that.

IIrc, the lab you are thinking about ( the one close to the Wetmarket ) is NOT the WuHan Lab where a Virus "could have escaped" . Also to consider, almost half of the people of the intially identified cluster in WuHan had no Link whatsoever to the WetMarket.

 

[Northpin]

Who would start the war though? If the article is correct then it was US funded research in a Chinese lab ... maybe the Russians would need to start the war

Well, both of them.
US being miffed that the Chinese let it out
Chinese being miffed that US funded a dangerous research on the Chinese territory
Or anyone else being miffed at both of them, or biased against only one

Somehow this reminded me of this Louis CK monologue with the fighting kids and the father (totally unrelated tho)

 

[Northpin]

IIrc, the lab you are thinking about ( the one close to the Wetmarket ) is NOT the WuHan Lab where a Virus "could have escaped" . Also to consider, almost half of the people of the intially identified cluster in WuHan had no Link whatsoever to the WetMarket.

I'm trying not to think about it. See above, i'm watching Louis CK SNL monologues.
But do yourself a favor a read the article @Factabulous linked. It's really interesting and well written.

 

[Arry]

IIrc, the lab you are thinking about ( the one close to the Wetmarket ) is NOT the WuHan Lab where a Virus "could have escaped" . Also to consider, almost half of the people of the intially identified cluster in WuHan had no Link whatsoever to the WetMarket.

Half the people of the initially identified cluster. How many? Logically the virus spreads, from person to person, anywhere people meet, so a percentage, of said cluster, would be strangers, who could have met anywhere. The street. On public transport. Other retailers. Schools, do i need to go on?

Small point about the quack we are talking about: He keeps stating that the bats, in question, would not have been out of the caves at that time of year and could not have travelled the distance, between the roosting cave and the market. Well, the bats in question, were being sold, in the market and in many cases, were still alive, in cages. That fact, makes about a third of his article irrelevant.

 

[Arry]

I'm trying not to think about it. See above, i'm watching Louis CK SNL monologues.
But do yourself a favor a read the article @Factabulous linked. It's really interesting and well written.

Really? I consider it to be about the same level as the 'Because science' guy, with the stupid hair and beliefs that aliens built the pyramids.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Strange that China as the source is still accepted. Wuhan outbreak was in Dec 2019, everybody remember?

Here are the actual studies, see for yourself. No opinion. Just findings.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy. This study shows an unexpected very early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among asymptomatic individuals in Italy several months before the first patient was identified, and clarifies the onset and spread of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Finding SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in asymptomatic people before the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy may reshape the history of pandemic.

It's not a "China virus". It was spreading globally before the Wuhan outbreak. September comes before December.

Metropolitan wastewater analysis for COVID-19 epidemiological surveillance - PMC

The COVID-19 disease, caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is a rapidly emerging pandemic which has enforced extreme containment measures worldwide. In the absence of a vaccine or efficient treatment, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here, we have used RT-qPCR for SARS-CoV-2 detection in a series of longitudinal metropolitan wastewaters samples collected from February to April 2020, during the earliest stages of the epidemic in the Region of Valencia, Spain. We were able to consistently detect SARS-CoV-2 RNA in samples taken in late February, when communicated cases in that region were only incipient.

In Spain, it is found in sewerage before the outbreak there got started. Widespread incidence, flying under the radar.

Similarly in Brazil

The presence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in human sewage in Santa Catarina, Brazil, November 2019

Human sewage from Florianopolis (Santa Catarina, Brazil) was analyzed for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV2) from October 201…

www.sciencedirect.com

Our findings demonstrate that SARS-CoV-2 was circulating unnoticed in in Brazil since Nov 2019

At best, it is unclear exactly where this originated, but there's no reason to assume it was Wuhan, or even in China. After Wuhan was locked down, the rest of China did not erupt in disease, because there was no widespread disease.
Or it would look like India now.

It simply could be that Wuhan imported it. Or that it mutated there.

There is some controversy about similar US findings dating to Dec 2019.

COVID-19 May Have Arrived in US in December: Study

SARS-CoV-2 antibodies detected in blood donor samples indicate infections could have occurred in the US more than a month before the first confirmed case, but some experts remain skeptical.

www.the-scientist.com

Don't be misled by racist nonsense, we have really had enough of that. If we adhere to verifiable information, we get a much more accurate picture.

 

[Northpin]

That article said that 3 people working in a lab in the WIV came down with Covid like symptoms and all 3 were hospitalized in autumn 2019. That could be as early as first week of September. Which means that less than a week later could have been out in the world

 

[sewerratuk]

Really? I consider it to be about the same level as the 'Because science' guy, with the stupid hair and beliefs that aliens built the pyramids.

Oof, you are treading a very fine line around here with that kind of comment

 

[Synkreto]

Strange that China as the source is still accepted. Wuhan outbreak was in Dec 2019, everybody remember?

Here are the actual studies, see for yourself. No opinion. Just findings.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%), with a cluster of positive cases (>30%) in the second week of February 2020 and the highest number (53.2%) in Lombardy. This study shows an unexpected very early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 among asymptomatic individuals in Italy several months before the first patient was identified, and clarifies the onset and spread of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. Finding SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in asymptomatic people before the COVID-19 outbreak in Italy may reshape the history of pandemic.

It's not a "China virus". It was spreading globally before the Wuhan outbreak. September comes before December.

Metropolitan wastewater analysis for COVID-19 epidemiological surveillance - PMC

The COVID-19 disease, caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is a rapidly emerging pandemic which has enforced extreme containment measures worldwide. In the absence of a vaccine or efficient treatment, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here, we have used RT-qPCR for SARS-CoV-2 detection in a series of longitudinal metropolitan wastewaters samples collected from February to April 2020, during the earliest stages of the epidemic in the Region of Valencia, Spain. We were able to consistently detect SARS-CoV-2 RNA in samples taken in late February, when communicated cases in that region were only incipient.

In Spain, it is found in sewerage before the outbreak there got started. Widespread incidence, flying under the radar.

Similarly in Brazil

The presence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in human sewage in Santa Catarina, Brazil, November 2019

Human sewage from Florianopolis (Santa Catarina, Brazil) was analyzed for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV2) from October 201…

www.sciencedirect.com

Our findings demonstrate that SARS-CoV-2 was circulating unnoticed in in Brazil since Nov 2019

At best, it is unclear exactly where this originated, but there's no reason to assume it was Wuhan, or even in China. After Wuhan was locked down, the rest of China did not erupt in disease, because there was no widespread disease.
Or it would look like India now.

It simply could be that Wuhan imported it. Or that it mutated there.

There is some controversy about similar US findings dating to Dec 2019.

COVID-19 May Have Arrived in US in December: Study

SARS-CoV-2 antibodies detected in blood donor samples indicate infections could have occurred in the US more than a month before the first confirmed case, but some experts remain skeptical.

www.the-scientist.com

Don't be misled by racist nonsense, we have really had enough of that. If we adhere to verifiable information, we get a much more accurate picture.

Thank you, thank you very much !

Due to freshly started job, I simply lack the time to dig out 15 months old papers/Articles about the inital cluster in WuHan, or one of the several well made Videos about how it is unlikely up to almost impossible the Virus escaped the cat4 Lab in WuHan .I thought potholer had made one, but did not find it on his channel .

Thing is, the cat4 Lab in WuHan is roughly 20kms away from the WetMarket . Think about whether it is plausible that the first cluster stared at the the WetMarket as epicenter . It didn't. I think it was 17 of 43 people in that initial cluster having no Link to the WetMarket . I just can't be bothered to dig up the paper about that cluster . I am actually eating at this moment XD .

 

[Factabulous]

Thing is, the cat4 Lab in WuHan is roughly 20kms away from the WetMarket .

One reason that article was worth reading (maybe) is that it pointed out that they were doing the research into the corona viruses in Cat 2 labs - there was no requirement to use Cat 4 labs for them. Cat 2 is more like the precautions dentists use, and so (we now know) not sufficient for SARS2-covid.

 

[Synkreto]

I'm trying not to think about it. See above, i'm watching Louis CK SNL monologues.
But do yourself a favor a read the article @Factabulous linked. It's really interesting and well written.

Wasted 30 secs, and I blame you !

He writes

and provide readers with the evidence to make their own judgments.

then few sentences later

It’s important to note that so far there is no direct evidence for either theory.

I stopped right there .

 

[Synkreto]

One reason that article was worth reading (maybe) is that it pointed out that they were doing the research into the corona viruses in Cat 2 labs - there was no requirement to use Cat 4 labs for them. Cat 2 is more like the precautions dentists use, and so (we now know) not sufficient for SARS2-covid.

You mean that ?

It’s documented that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were doing gain-of-function experiments designed to make coronaviruses infect human cells and humanized mice. This is exactly the kind of experiment from which a SARS2-like virus could have emerged. The researchers were not vaccinated against the viruses under study, and they were working in the minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory.

Well, he is not shy to provide Links in the text . I do not find a single link to "the documentation" of this point . I especially doubt "minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory."

Damn you . I actually DID read more of that . This time, I blame YOU !

 

[Factabulous]

Well, he is not shy to provide Links in the text . I do not find a single link to "the documentation" of this point . I especially doubt "minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory."

well, there is a link to an interview (in a pdf form) where apparently the team lead admits that, but I didn't read it. I still would say there is a link

Edit: As I said initially - I hope there is more investigation into this. Journalism will never be as rigorous as a scientific peer-reviewed paper, but as journalism I think it makes a good case that there is more to find.

 

[Synkreto]

Look at the list of things that can be done - under the context of routine diagnostic testing admittedly, but really look at the List :

Routine Diagnostic Testing​

Routine diagnostic testing of specimens, such as the following activities, can be handled in a BSL-2 laboratory using Standard Precautions:

• Using automated instruments and analyzers
• Processing initial samples
• Staining and microscopic analysis of fixed smears
• Examination of bacterial cultures
• Pathologic examination and processing of formalin-fixed or otherwise inactivated tissues
• Molecular analysis of extracted nucleic acid preparations
• Final packaging of specimens for transport to diagnostic laboratories for additional testing (specimens should already be in a sealed, decontaminated primary container)
• Using inactivated specimens, such as specimens in nucleic acid extraction buffer
• Performing electron microscopic studies with glutaraldehyde-fixed grids

Labs

COVID-19 resources and guidelines for labs and laboratory workers.

www.cdc.gov

Several sources say research on the Actual Menace as we know him ( SARS-CoV-2 ) can be/is being done under a mixed BSL-2/BSL-3 protocol .