Elite is... Kind of Dumb

Part un: This is dumb.

I am something of an Author, and Odyssey inspired me to try my hand at a bit of fiction in the Elite universe, which will probably still happen. However, I felt it a good idea to do some research first, get my facts straight, and not mess anything up too badly. So, I went to the wiki because I'm not getting paid for this, so I'm not going too far out of my way, and just about the first thing I find is the population of the Federation. Just shy of two trillion? I got up, went to my pantry, and poured myself a drink, because Lord above, I knew I was going to need some whiskey in me to get my head around where whoever wrote this garbage was coming from.

Two trillion? In an empire spanning thousands of stars? Do they have a yearly outbreak of T-virus? China, right now, has a twenty-second of the population of the entire solar system in a thousand years? There should be a trillion people per kilometer living in cis-lunar space; there should be a trillion, trillion people living on earth in perfectly ecologically sustainable communities, whose first thought when they hear the words "global warming" is about the engineering challenges involved in radiating all that body heat without cooking the Earth's biosphere. There should be hundreds of quadrillions living in the Dyson swarm the Federation built out of the materials harvested from disassembling Mercury and Venus. There should be tens of trillions living in the stellar empire centered around Jupiter, which the Federation has ignited into an artificial star. This a persistent problem throughout fiction of population numbers being specifically too small. But Frontier is five, six, more? Orders of magnitude off, even just looking at Sol, let alone thousands of other star systems. Add six or seven zeroes to that number Frontier.

Now, the Empire, of course, is even less populous, but they do have the excuse of their political, legal, and economic systems being completely insane. Incoherent to outright self-contradictory. So it's sort of understandable that given the carrying capacity of their territory, they have a population more akin to the post diaspora Jews than the Romans they sort of ape aesthetically, a little.

Speaking of economy, politics, and society, the Federation is least bad and the most boring. As mentioned above, the empire is ocelot-down-pants insane, but that ensures a party and the Alliance? Well, the Alliance would definitely self-immolate if they didn't have an external threat, so that would be good for a spectacle. Bu the federation? It's a boring, obvious social critique of western democracy and the USA specifically by way of a weird probably-dysfunctional-but-it-works-in-universe-so-what-do-I-know mixture of American and UK parliamentary systems. That's- a goal you can have, but really, it doesn't stand up to a second of thought. Cloning, narcotics, corporatism? These are hardly the eternal problems of representative government. If you really wanted to critique the true weaknesses of democracy, you could have chosen the permanent bureaucracy, which in the UK especially operates much like a tinpot dictatorship wearing the skin of a parliamentary system, the undue influence of media organizations upon public policy, or any number of things which are largely cultural and thus specific to the hear and now.

In a thousand years, given the technologies we see in-game, no one argues about cloning because people throw away bodies like we toss out socks that have holes worn in them. Your body is no longer your self; your self is the series of mental processes that can be patterned into any number of media, mechanical, electric, digital, or biological. There's more I could go into, but I think you get the point.

You know, what's the point of all this? First, recognizing the mistakes made by others is a good way to improve your own writing. Second, this has also inspired me to reimagine the factions.

Part du: The Federation

The Federation is a technologically advanced, post-biological civilization in which all people are augmented to a greater or lesser degree. Because of gene editing and permanent colonies of self-replicating nanomachines, people are born with graphene bones and fiber-optic neurons, but most new citizens aren't born; they're the result of existing citizens copying their neural patterns creating a new instance of themself. The average IQ is 970; the slowest thousand-meter dash is under a second. If a single federal citizen were dropped on Earth today, they would rule the world within years, not that they couldn't wait longer because every person is biologically immortal. This is the less interesting stuff so let's move on to the empire.

Imagine being a loyal Imperial pilot. I know, I know, but work with me.

Part Tre: The interesting one

You are called upon by her imperial highness Aisling to help fight for the people of the empire and bring the galaxy into a glorious future. Slowly, day by day, you work your way up the ranks of the princess' supporters; as your prestige grows, so too do the rewards, and one day you receive an invitation for a personal audience with the princess herself. Of course, you can't refuse; you're not really given the option, but why would you?

The imperial guard escort you to the Princess's residence; you're nervous, you've seen the pictures, heard the broadcasts read the Galnet articles. But what will the princess really be like? What will it be like to stand in her presence. Finally, the doors open, the guards usher you through, and you're met with a writhing mass of human arms and torsos molded together into the shape of a massive spider. Embedded into the creature's abdomen is a young woman of surpassing beauty, writhing in a perpetual mixture of torment and orgasmic bliss. You recognize her immediately; it's the princess, but what-

Her eyes open, and the creature rears up, spreading dozens of arms out as though to embrace you. She speaks, but you don't understand the words, your mind still paralyzed, trying to decipher what you're seeing. So many fingers, it has so many fingers!

What is this?
Why is this?

It's because they're nuts They're completely INSANE. Centuries of obsessing over the essential aesthetics of human existence gave these people a glimpse into the eyes of God, and it drove their entire civilization utterly mad! They're using narcotics, genetic engineering, and cloning to do what the yogis and gurus of millennia past did with asceticism. They're searching for Nirvana, attempting to gain enlightenment through the pure sensual, experiential core of mankind.

This is why the Empire can't have long-lasting friendly relations with the Federation; they're heretics! There are "people" in the Federation that don't even have bodies; they're just electric signals floating around in the dataspace. A sick, disgusting perversion of the human essence. A roadblock on the path to transcendence into a higher form of conciseness. The Federation is hedonistic and corrupt, strong of body and technologically advanced but spiritually bankrupt. The Empire! The Empire is ascendent! Creating new, more pure, human forms!

You don't know how much of this is the product of your fraying mind and how much is the words of Aisling's speech, at some point, had begun to weave together within your consciousness. The arms were still outstretched, beckoning you. You take a step forward, almost against your will, then another. You don't want to go, but you have to, you have to be embraced, humanity must ascend.

Part Que: What- you want us to follow THAT?

No one cares about the alliance, and there's no way they could measure up to that anyway. They're the alliance, whatever.

In conclusion, Elite would be a somewhat different game if I was writing the lore, and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom
 
Last edited:
Idon't want to address everything here, but I think your estimates of population growth are based on false premises abs common misconceptions. Much of the increase in population over the past 60 years has been driven more by higher life expectancy than it has high birth rates. Birth rates peaked globally around 1960 and have actuary been in decline ever since. So much so, it's likely that the human population will stabilise or even go into decline this century based on current trends alone.

Total fertility rate (the average number of children a woman has during her lifetime) needs to be about 2.1 in order to maintain a steady population and combat various forms of premature death. That number peaked at close to 5 in 1960, and the average is now estimated around 2.5.



The truth is, a runaway human population is the stuff of ditopian fiction pre-1990 that just public consciousness just can't seem to shake. Partially, the is because only the actual population numbers are reported in the media, without any explanation into any of the above.

Even in China, they've replaced the 1 child policy with a 2 child policy because they had one of the biggest cases of an ageing population in the planet.

But in reflection, a Federation population of 3 trillion doesn't seem too far fetched. Higher would also be plausible, but that doesn't mean that a stable lower population is implausible either.
 
I'll just address the physics side, stars don't burn, they work by a process of fusion, so you can't just ignite Jupiter and turn it into a star, it doesn't have enough mass to support fusion! It has only 1000th the mass of the sun, you could add all the mass in the solar system to Jupiter and it still wouldn't be a star, not even a small star.
 
You're
So...the federation are the super-borg, and everyone else is a bunch of hippie idiots obsessed with drugs and being pretty?

...nah.

Oh, also, *Nirvana.
Ascethitcs=/=pretty. And they're not hippies, they're the deep ones.

Also, just because the alliance is boring doesn't mean they're irrelevant, just boring.

Idon't want to address everything here, but I think your estimates of population growth are based on false premises abs common misconceptions. Much of the increase in population over the past 60 years has been driven more by higher life expectancy than it has high birth rates. Birth rates peaked globally around 1960 and have actuary been in decline ever since. So much so, it's likely that the human population will stabilise or even go into decline this century based on current trends alone.

Total fertility rate (the average number of children a woman has during her lifetime) needs to be about 2.1 in order to maintain a steady population and combat various forms of premature death. That number peaked at close to 5 in 1960, and the average is now estimated around 2.5.



The truth is, a runaway human population is the stuff of ditopian fiction pre-1990 that just public consciousness just can't seem to shake. Partially, the is because only the actual population numbers are reported in the media, without any explanation into any of the above.

Even in China, they've replaced the 1 child policy with a 2 child policy because they had one of the biggest cases of an ageing population in the planet.

But in reflection, a Federation population of 3 trillion doesn't seem too far fetched. Higher would also be plausible, but that doesn't mean that a stable lower population is implausible either.

You're misidentifying the cause of human populations plateauing. People have fewer children because children, due to governmental factors, are a strict resource negative. In nature, this would be due to reaching the carrying capacity of the land. Given the technology we see in the game, there is no downward pressure tricking people's lizard brain into not having kids. This isn't to say none of it is cultural, but you also have to remember that the space-faring human populations came out of a global nuclear war. Massive population dips have universally lead to equally massive population booms; with no effective upper limit on sustainable population, we shouldn't assume that boom would ever end.

Re: China, it's important to remember that even though, yes, they lifted the one-child policy, the government also enacts economic planning that has produced massive downward pressure on their population. So people feel poor even though china is a rich country. It's also important to remember that the one-child policy isn't the only policy in China relating to children. Other laws have long incentivized having boys, which has, in turn, lead to horrendously skewed ratios of men to women meaning that there are, quite literally, not enough women in China and, obviously, the reduction in population growth attendant to that.

I'll just address the physics side, stars don't burn, they work by a process of fusion, so you can't just ignite Jupiter and turn it into a star, it doesn't have enough mass to support fusion! It has only 1000th the mass of the sun, you could add all the mass in the solar system to Jupiter and it still wouldn't be a star, not even a small star.
It is, though known processes, entirely possible to cause Jupiter to ignite a stable fusion reaction and become a star. The low-tech way we could use right now would be to add more mass, but the Federation could, with the technology at its disposal, also do things such as change the gas composition of Jupiter's atmosphere, place the planet under higher pressure, etc. The suggestion was just for illustration, but everything I mentioned was entirely hard sci-fi, and much of it could be achieved with current technology and enormous amounts of time and brute force.

The Federation has it much easier because they have FTL, universal automation, wormholes, and other things we don't have.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom
 
Last edited:
I'll just address the physics side, stars don't burn, they work by a process of fusion, so you can't just ignite Jupiter and turn it into a star, it doesn't have enough mass to support fusion! It has only 1000th the mass of the sun, you could add all the mass in the solar system to Jupiter and it still wouldn't be a star, not even a small star.
Been Done: Peter F. Hamilton, The Neutronium Alchemist (and other weapons developments in the Commonwealth universe)
 
You're misidentifying the cause of human populations plateauing. People have fewer children because children, due to governmental factors, are a strict resource negative. In nature, this would be due to reaching the carrying capacity of the land. Given the technology we see in the game, there is no downward pressure tricking people's lizard brain into not having kids. This isn't to say none of it is cultural, but you also have to remember that the space-faring human populations came out of a global nuclear war. Massive population dips have universally lead to equally massive population booms; with no effective upper limit on sustainable population, we shouldn't assume that boom would ever end.
Government policies are not the only thing or factor in play when it comes to population growth either. Other environmental factors play a role, mostly access to resources in one way or another. Higher birth rates are often accompanied by higher infant mortality rates/much lower life expectancies due to lack of infrastructure or access to it. You don't play by the local government rules/economic rules, you don't get access to the stuff. As the Elite galaxy is mostly predicated on a future hyper-capitalist culture, access to such things is not going to be guaranteed. Economic forces will still come into play.
 
First of all, we see all kinds of economic systems that are not "capitalist," which I put into quotations because communists coined the term as a slur for property ownership. Including systems akin to the old manner systems of feudal Europe, which segues nicely into. During all of history, until today, the supermajority of people lived at what we would consider the extreme margins of poverty and were still far more... productive than we are today.

High infant mortality is part of this, but the larger part was that children became a net economic positive earlier. With Elite, we have to suspend our disbelief somewhat because it is doubtful the corporate system would survive the level of automation postulated in the lore. After all, when you can have your family's clanking self-replicator make whatever you need, you don't buy it. But, I see no reason to believe that the average person is not as much more wealthy or has as much more leisure time than we do people from even just a few hundred years ago. Children never become an economic drain on their families because society has truly unimaginable levels of plenty. If having a corporate system stops people from accessing that plenty, why hasn't it stopped us?

I think that should be 'populous', not 'populace'.
You are correct, I used the wrong form.


Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom
 
What's insane about the empire? Everything is out in the open. Feds are the ones who talk about freedom while installing cameras in every loo. The Alliance? Yes, that's a thing that exists.
 
The empire's state foundational principles are completely at odds. The Imperial law is absolute, and its enforcers free to go to any lengths and kill with impunity, but also it's a libertine and libertarian society where behavior is regulated by social expectation and personal honor. The explanation of Imperial society is one contradiction stacked on top of another, and the deeper you look, the worse the problems get.

It also has the problem of the other factions of being; not very interesting it's probably the most interesting given how mind-bending the world-building around the Empire is, but it's still just more or less vanilla humanity IN SPACE! This is where my little vignette comes in. What would become of a biologically immortal people, with enormous amounts of time and money, who spend all their time ruminating on aesthetics? What would being freed from any and all physical constraint do to people like that.

The title of this post rough and the story telling inside is even rougher!
Could you clarify this?



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom
 
What would being freed from any and all physical constraint do to people like that.
You've never watched "Altered Carbon", I assume.

Liberty and strictly enforced laws aren't contradictory. You can strictly enforce a very small set of laws. The sense of honor you seem to belittle then keeps the enforcers in check.
 
It is, though known processes, entirely possible to cause Jupiter to ignite a stable fusion reaction and become a star. The low-tech way we could use right now would be to add more mass, but the Federation could, with the technology at its disposal, also do things such as change the gas composition of Jupiter's atmosphere, place the planet under higher pressure, etc. The suggestion was just for illustration, but everything I mentioned was entirely hard sci-fi, and much of it could be achieved with current technology and enormous amounts of time and brute force.

No it’s not. Just as you can’t start fission with a a reactor with planks of wood at it’s core. It’s physics.

As someone said you’d need it to have 85 times more mass for it to start fusion. The solar system doesn’t have that excluding the sun.
 
It is, though known processes, entirely possible to cause Jupiter to ignite a stable fusion reaction and become a star. The low-tech way we could use right now would be to add more mass, but the Federation could, with the technology at its disposal, also do things such as change the gas composition of Jupiter's atmosphere, place the planet under higher pressure, etc. The suggestion was just for illustration, but everything I mentioned was entirely hard sci-fi, and much of it could be achieved with current technology and enormous amounts of time and brute force.

No it isn't. You can't "ignite" fusion, that's not how it works, fusion is a process that happens when the conditions are right. To get enough mass you would have to bring around 100 Jupiters worth of mass from another star, probably several other stars, but why on earth would you do that? You are already at another star!

Changing the gas composition won't ignite fusion, in fact it would make it less likely to fuse, there's a reason all stars start with helium/hydrogen fusion, and that's because that's the easiest one to start, changing the gas composition of Jupiter would make it less likely to start fusion.

Placing it under higher pressure, that's what mass and gravity does, even if you could work out some way to place it under higher pressure without using extra mass and gravity, which as pointed out is rather silly, the moment you stopped applying pressure fusion would also stop. The problem with applying pressure to create fusion is to produce enough energy to actually exceed the amount of energy required to apply the pressure, and while that might just be possible on a small scale with magnetic fields and/or lasers, we still haven't done it yet, compressing an entire planet, even a gas giant, will likely require way more pressure than you will ever get back from the paltry fusion you could expect at the core.

So no, none of that is feasible, likely or even worth doing, and that's a big problem with beginners writing sci-fi, you don't just jot things down you would like to happen, you actually need to understand the stuff. That's why we have around 7 Ringworld books, because after the first one some smarty wrote to Larry Niven with the enclosed maths that demonstrated that a Ringworld is inherently instable and would eventually crash into the central star, so he had to write more books to work around that problem and put attitude thrusters on the thing!
 
No it’s not. Just as you can’t start fission with a a reactor with planks of wood at it’s core. It’s physics.

As someone said you’d need it to have 85 times more mass for it to start fusion. The solar system doesn’t have that excluding the sun.
The smallest star we have discovered is merely 67 times the mass of Jupiter, and that is certainly not the smallest star produced by nature, only the smallest we have found.

No it isn't. You can't "ignite" fusion, that's not how it works, fusion is a process that happens when the conditions are right. To get enough mass you would have to bring around 100 Jupiters worth of mass from another star, probably several other stars, but why on earth would you do that? You are already at another star!
Jupiter already experiences fusion reactions, just not enough to produce emissive light; as I have already pointed out, you're overestimating the amount of mass that would be required to perform this task, and even were you not, the federation clearly has access to mass sufficient to the task.

Changing the gas composition won't ignite fusion, in fact it would make it less likely to fuse, there's a reason all stars start with helium/hydrogen fusion, and that's because that's the easiest one to start, changing the gas composition of Jupiter would make it less likely to start fusion.
Your understanding of this topic is clearly very surface-level. For example, some hydrogens are more likely to fuse; most heliums are actually relatively difficult to fuse; if you increased the levels of deuterium in Jupiter's atmosphere, it would make fusion reactions more likely; if you reduced the levels of helium, you would similarly make fusion reactions more likely.

Placing it under higher pressure, that's what mass and gravity does, even if you could work out some way to place it under higher pressure without using extra mass and gravity, which as pointed out is rather silly, the moment you stopped applying pressure fusion would also stop. The problem with applying pressure to create fusion is to produce enough energy to actually exceed the amount of energy required to apply the pressure, and while that might just be possible on a small scale with magnetic fields and/or lasers, we still haven't done it yet, compressing an entire planet, even a gas giant, will likely require way more pressure than you will ever get back from the paltry fusion you could expect at the core.
Gravity is one method of producing high pressure and is actually the most mass inefficient method of producing pressure, which may or may not be a perk since gravity wells are a pretty good way to store mass long term. But, more to the point, I think you're underestimating the output of a star, and the increases in efficiency still available to us in power generation, especially since the power output of the technology we see in Elite specifically is already ludicrous.

Not that fusion is even the only option; the elements in Jupiter's atmosphere could also be heated hot enough, and Jupiter would essentially become a giant light bulb; a similar effect could be achieved by building a shell of a material like tungsten around Jupiter and applying pressure, even if you didn't want to achieve fusion that way, which you could, the heat would cause the tungsten to glow, exactly like the filament in a lightbulb.

So no, none of that is feasible, likely or even worth doing, and that's a big problem with beginners writing sci-fi, you don't just jot things down you would like to happen, you actually need to understand the stuff. That's why we have around 7 Ringworld books, because after the first one some smarty wrote to Larry Niven with the enclosed maths that demonstrated that a Ringworld is inherently instable and would eventually crash into the central star, so he had to write more books to work around that problem and put attitude thrusters on the thing!
You are clearly not the person to be making this critique.



Stay Frosty,



Cmnd Fulsom
 
Back
Top Bottom