Climbing system is too much of a black box

[Iben]

I think to this day there's been many many topics and posts about the climbing/traversable system being either wonky or even downright buggy. Frustrations about things not working, things no longer working etc. etc.

Today I had yet another encounter with the frustration behind the climbing system. A few hours ago I saved my game with this being the traversable/climbable area for my orangutans.

Now a few moments ago I reloaded my game file and without a single change, we end up with this:

All areas that were previously traversable are actually still traversable, I can still grab them and place them on the previous traversable areas, but then they're all of a sudden stuck in those areas, whereas they weren't before.

And this brings me to my main complaint. The climbing system is too much of a black box. A black box in development is a piece of a system/code that gets inputs and outputs, but we as users have no clue what happens within said box. And I feel that this is the case for Planet Zoos climbing system. As much as we would like to say that we know how it works, at the end of the day, none of us really do. We have no real guide on how the climbing system work. We don't know what we should or shouldn't do to make it work, we have no clue to what the limits are or even what hidden items are still left untouched.

I'm not saying we need a detailed guide to the inner workings of the entire climbing system, but as of today, we are just messing around hoping we're doing the right thing rather than actually knowing what we should or shouldn't do and what we can or cannot do. For that, we need a basic fundamentals guide from Frontier for us to at least understand why certain things are navigationable, why certain things are climbable, etc.

Because although I still adore that the custom climbing frames are a thing in this game, the constant frustration of trying to get them to work is killing me

 

[Bearcat9948]

Snip!

Ugh, someday Iben, we'll get that climbing overhaul

I'd still rather get an aviary system in first, but yeah, this is 100% needed. I still get taken out of the realism of the game because animals like the koala, capuchins, red pandas and binturongs that really should be spending 60-90% of their time either in trees or on climbing frames spend most of it on the ground.

I actually ran a little experiment shortly after the SEA pack release by placing a binturong in a habitat with nothing but three climbable trees, and it used 0 of them over the course of 5 in-game years. I've been asking for the frequency of ground to arboreal behavior on these animals to be upped for a while now.

I think a climbing overhaul update that adds in some free climbing frames and logs, coupled with a climbing/arboreal focused animals pack would go over really well. That way we can get some animals that have been passed over like new world monkeys, gibbons, tree kangaroos etc.

 

[Iben]

This post wasn't really meant as question for a climbing system overhaul per se, as Chante did mention in Rudi's QA stream that the devs continuously tweak the system with every update. So that's not really the point of this topic.

The exact same issue would arise with an overhaul, we would still not know what the limitations are. Before we can have an accurate idea of what is and isn't working with the climbing system, we need to know how to current system works. We need to know why an animal starts using a climbing frame, what constitutes as navigationable space vs climbing space, which things we should keep in mind when building a climbing structure, etc.

It's as you mentioned, you have a habitat with climbable trees and the binturong don't climb it, whilst in the video we got they climb perfectly. I still haven't had them hang upside down in my zoo whilst it is prominent in the trailer. I'm fine with limitations, but as long as I don't know what those limitations are, I'm just sat here guessing and getting frustrated.

 

[Bearcat9948]

Yeah, I was just sort of venting. I deleted the file with my experiment on it, but I might have to recreate it and post pictures on here some time just to prove how....how can I put this constructively.... uh, imperfect, the system is at the moment.

And yes, some sort of video guide would be very helpful. Perhaps they could get someone from the dev team with intimate knowledge of it on a dev livestream and demo some stuff for us.

 

[justGoron]

A more in depth heatmap for traversability would be a godsend, highlighting slopes that are too steep, what's causing a climbing frame not to be climable (angle, scenery blocking it, it being out of reach idk), lots to be gained there

 

[Tobs]

Personally, my biggest issue is when traversable (including climbable) maps are not properly loaded when opening a zoo map/file, as Iben shows and explains. I think this could be related with the file size.

And yes, the binturong upside down animation is a black box. I have never ever seen a binturong doing it.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

Cool idea. I'd love a dev-led tutorial on advanced climbing and traversability. (Presuming that it's not a black box to the devs too!)

 

[Firestar97]

It's so annoying when you place a Climbing Structure and the Animals can't use it for absolutely no Reason. I wish it would also finally be fixed that Gorillas and Orangutans can't use the Ropes anymore (it still shows as climbable on the Heatmap for some Reason).

I still get taken out of the realism of the game because animals like the koala, capuchins, red pandas and binturongs that really should be spending 60-90% of their time either in trees or on climbing frames spend most of it on the ground.

I actually ran a little experiment shortly after the SEA pack release by placing a binturong in a habitat with nothing but three climbable trees, and it used 0 of them over the course of 5 in-game years. I've been asking for the frequency of ground to arboreal behavior on these animals to be upped for a while now.

Koalas climb more often when the Enclosure is small. But I agree that this shouldn't be necessary.

And yes, the binturong upside down animation is a black box. I have never ever seen a binturong doing it.

Some Animations are way too rare. I've also never seen the special Animations for Animal Talks that some Animals have. I hope we'll get also a Fix for both of these Problems

 

[SimoneV]

Had the same problem with traversable water and climbing. One moment they could use it and swim and when I loaded that save later, they couldn't. Had to modify the terrain and stuff

 

[Antonin]

Had the same problem with traversable water and climbing. One moment they could use it and swim and when I loaded that save later, they couldn't. Had to modify the terrain and stuff

Indeed, the same, it's very annoying

 

[iloveyourzoos]

This may be obvious, but for those who had the problem when loading in, have you tried deleting and then immediately undeleting a climbing structure (or water, for the diving problem). When I do this, it usually recalculates the area back to what it was originally. (sort of like refreshing the calculation).

If the calculation after deleting/undeleting comes up as something different, then it does seem more like a black box about how it's calculated. But if it comes up as the same as it was before, I tend to take it as a sign that I've built it fine, and something internally just needs to be reminded to do the calculation. (The same thing sometimes happens to me with enrichment items. They all work, but I have to manually remind the system that they're there).

 

[Tobs]

This may be obvious, but for those who had the problem when loading in, have you tried deleting and then immediately undeleting a climbing structure (or water, for the diving problem). When I do this, it usually recalculates the area back to what it was originally. (sort of like refreshing the calculation).

If the calculation after deleting/undeleting comes up as something different, then it does seem more like a black box about how it's calculated. But if it comes up as the same as it was before, I tend to take it as a sign that I've built it fine, and something internally just needs to be reminded to do the calculation. (The same thing sometimes happens to me with enrichment items. They all work, but I have to manually remind the system that they're there).

This does not work always in all situations.

 

[Ursidae]

I think to this day there's been many many topics and posts about the climbing/traversable system being either wonky or even downright buggy. Frustrations about things not working, things no longer working etc. etc.

Today I had yet another encounter with the frustration behind the climbing system. A few hours ago I saved my game with this being the traversable/climbable area for my orangutans.

Now a few moments ago I reloaded my game file and without a single change, we end up with this:

All areas that were previously traversable are actually still traversable, I can still grab them and place them on the previous traversable areas, but then they're all of a sudden stuck in those areas, whereas they weren't before.

And this brings me to my main complaint. The climbing system is too much of a black box. A black box in development is a piece of a system/code that gets inputs and outputs, but we as users have no clue what happens within said box. And I feel that this is the case for Planet Zoos climbing system. As much as we would like to say that we know how it works, at the end of the day, none of us really do. We have no real guide on how the climbing system work. We don't know what we should or shouldn't do to make it work, we have no clue to what the limits are or even what hidden items are still left untouched.

I'm not saying we need a detailed guide to the inner workings of the entire climbing system, but as of today, we are just messing around hoping we're doing the right thing rather than actually knowing what we should or shouldn't do and what we can or cannot do. For that, we need a basic fundamentals guide from Frontier for us to at least understand why certain things are navigationable, why certain things are climbable, etc.

Because although I still adore that the custom climbing frames are a thing in this game, the constant frustration of trying to get them to work is killing me

I had the same frustrating issue with my orangutans a few months ago. I think it is the orangutans that are affected by the wonkiness of the climbing system the most as they are one of the largest climbing animals in the game. Doubt capuchins for instance would have the same bug as often.

I wonder if this is because save files cannot log the exact position of the items placed. I remember seeing various objects moving ever so slightly when I load in old save files. Non of those items were climbing structures, but the source of the problem might be the same.

 

[NL_Mutso]

I wonder if this is because save files cannot log the exact position of the items placed. I remember seeing various objects moving ever so slightly when I load in old save files. Non of those items were climbing structures, but the source of the problem might be the same

Never paid attention to that one.
Wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the problem ,seen similar things with saving with other games as well.
Maybe sceneries/animals load slighty faster/slower than other parts of the game.

All areas that were previously traversable are actually still traversable, I can still grab them and place them on the previous traversable areas, but then they're all of a sudden stuck in those areas, whereas they weren't before.

Does it change back if you play the game for 5-10 minutes or so ?
Or if you only change 1 thing and undo that same action, will that recalculate and reset the traversable area ?
Really a shame it's part of your frustrations with PZ but even in such situations, I like me some mystery/problem solving/guessing.

 

[Ursidae]

Never paid attention to that one.
Wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the problem ,seen similar things with saving with other games as well.
Maybe sceneries/animals load slighty faster/slower than other parts of the game.

That could also be a thing, but what I meant by "moving" is not items actually moving as the save file loads in, but problems with coordinate logging when saving. Even if an object is logged an inch or two off on either of the axes, it would be enough to cause traversable area issues with climbing.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

Even if an object is logged an inch or two off on either of the axes, it would be enough to cause traversable area issues with climbing.

Great suggestion! I've got one habitat where the climbing goes over the path. 99% of the time it is high enough and far enough away that the animals can't escape. But every once in a while I'll load in and it says they can. Usually I fix it by raising it just a bit to where it was before, but I may try raising it a bit more and see if that keeps it from recalculating back down.

 

[NL_Mutso]

That could also be a thing, but what I meant by "moving" is not items actually moving as the save file loads in, but problems with coordinate logging when saving. Even if an object is logged an inch or two off on either of the axes, it would be enough to cause traversable area issues with climbing.

Good point.

Games can do crazy stuff when you load the save file:
I remember 1 situation with another (online) game where 1 person had daily issues with getting his character stuck in the ground everytime he loaded the game.
The environment loaded slightly faster than his character. It was fixed it by slighty raising certain graphic settings for the game (ground textures etc)

 

[Bearcat9948]

This is a bit of a bump but.... I was wondering if anyone else could help me out with an experiment. I just ran a 3 year sim with a group of 16 binturongs in a sandbox zoo (welfare off). I put them in an enclosure with only climbable trees, no climbing frame enrichment items. They did not climb any of the variety of trees I put into the habitat, despite the game saying the area was traversable. Is anyone else able to do a similar experiment and see why this might be?

 

[yoav_r]

This is a bit of a bump but.... I was wondering if anyone else could help me out with an experiment. I just ran a 3 year sim with a group of 16 binturongs in a sandbox zoo (welfare off). I put them in an enclosure with only climbable trees, no climbing frame enrichment items. They did not climb any of the variety of trees I put into the habitat, despite the game saying the area was traversable. Is anyone else able to do a similar experiment and see why this might be?

Just ran it, for me one of them climbed a tree once

 

[NZFanatic]

This is a bit of a bump but.... I was wondering if anyone else could help me out with an experiment. I just ran a 3 year sim with a group of 16 binturongs in a sandbox zoo (welfare off). I put them in an enclosure with only climbable trees, no climbing frame enrichment items. They did not climb any of the variety of trees I put into the habitat, despite the game saying the area was traversable. Is anyone else able to do a similar experiment and see why this might be?

I haven't played with the binturong much, but I can say that my lemurs, red pandas, and capuchins, all of which I use frequently, easily and often go into trees (so did my clouded leopards the one time I used them). There have been suggestions that the binturong is a little bugged, though, because very few people have been able to trigger their hanging animation, too.