Anarchy Factions / Systems - Influence Loss Reports

Name: The Code
System : Orrere
We did the same old BGS that we’ve done for years, on approximately May 20 our influence tanked from around 55% all the way down to 29% by 26 May.
We have over a 3 billion population system, which means under normal circumstances, it would be impossible to lose this much influence with us working on BGS. For us this correlates to around the first patch
C43068D0-8CCD-4FD7-B319-F472CF0B7283.png
 
Faction: Fusang Heavy Engineering
System: Thras

I have seen the influence drop rapidly and between ticks to despite numerous influence missions of various types being completed. It looks as if the influence missions are having the opposite effect.
 
@Bruce G , I know this isn't reporting an issue with a specific system or faction and it's influence levels, but I can't recommend enough that the longstanding issue of general inability to reliably undertake missions which target lawful factions with negative effects, compounded with the general scenario where anarchy factions are always the target of negative actions by lawful ones, as the critical outstanding issue for Anarchy factions here.

As usual, you can take missions for any faction, and that mission will support that faction. That's fine.

But look what happens when you look at the targets and effects of those missions.

System 1:
Missions targeting lawful factions with Positive Effects: 29
Missions targeting anarchy factions with Positive Effects: 0
Missions targeting lawful factions with Negative Effects: 20
Missions targeting anarchy factions with Negative Effects: 24


I then had a look at a system in a pretty extreme state. Here, I've assessed three factions in the None state and 4 in War states in the one system

Excluding Wartime Massacres we get:
Missions targeting lawful factions with Positive Effects: 18
Missions targeting anarchy factions with Positive Effects: 0
Missions targeting lawful factions with Negative Effects: 13
Missions targeting anarchy factions with Negative Effects: 36

If we include Wartime Massacres we get another 30-odd missions targeting lawful factions, but this is literally the only time you can reliably get missions to target, and since they're not stackable and take a comparatively long time compared to most missions, I think it unreasonably affects the balance... add to the fact that including that is situational; war can just as easily be with an Anarchy, and then a quarter of those missions would be targeting anarchies. The fact that outside of massacres, most missions offered by factions at war still target Anarchies as seen above, and that's pretty crazy. "Wartime Salvage", "Assassinate Venerable General" and "Assassinate/Massacre Deserters" should target the relevant faction in the war, not some random local pirate faction.

The crucial issues here are as follows:
  • Positive target effects never apply to anarchy factions, even when the mission is issued by an anarchy faction.[1]
  • Lawful factions get a roughly 50-50 split of positive vs negative effects targeting them. Anarchies get nothing but negative affecting them.
  • Remember the distribution of factions here; typically for every 5-6 lawful factions you'll get 1 anarchy faction. So even if you look at case #1 as being a 50/50 split, a single anarchy faction will be targeted by up to six times as many negative effects as a single lawful faction will, as the targets will be distributed randomly[2].

In short, the main issue plaguing anarchy factions is the inability to reliably target a lawful faction with negative effects through missions, while missions will also guarantee targeting anarchy factions.

The solution is, as I've suggested a few times now, a discreet Criminal Mission Board. Such a board is:
  • Either always accessible, or only accessible when using Anonymity Protocols
  • Offers missions targeting negative effects against the local factions, with missions grouped as-such, and offered to the player by "Anonymous Contacts"
  • Reputation effects for rewards are inverted; worse reputation with a faction == higher pay.

That way, the mission board only offers lawful missions with positive effects (and offers more of those sorts of missions just like having a separate passenger board), meanwhile illegal missions are on the criminal board, benefit likewise from having more on offer, and are available even when wanted (which players conducting illegal actions almost always should be), and can be used to target specific factions with negative effects.

[1] There may be cases where this isn't true. Frankly, Ive got better things to do than spend hours just looking at patterns in mission boards when I can rely heavily on experience. If you check it out yourself, you'll find this to be generally true.
[2] where missions target owned facilities, this will create a bias towards that faction, but it's still a random selection across any suitable target in range. Unless a single lawful faction owns everything in a 20Ly radius, it can't be guaranteed. If you consider a typical location, you're looking at potentially 5-6 Anarchy factions, and around 30-40 lawful factions. In such a circumstance, with that Wartime board, each anarchy will be hit with 6 negative effects, while lawful factions have a <50% chance of being hit once.
 
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Name of faction: Diamond Frogs

63 G. Capricorni - tick on 5th of June
We’d pushed a lot of INF+ missions during the preceding 24 hours but saw our influence fall by 1%, which is a significant move in a system with more than 9bn inhabitants.

Baraswar - 10 June
This system is about to enter a Lockdown state, evidence that there has been a significant and sustained attack on our faction’s NPCs.

Senones War
We were fighting for control in the Senones system between 1 June and 6 June. Despite turning in tens of millions in Combat Bonds each tick, we steadily lost ground and, in the end, lost control of the system.

At the time this system was seeing traffic in the many hundreds of commanders each day most, we believe, farming materials at ground bases belonging to our faction, and therefore killing our NPCs en-masse.

We think that these violent actions contribute against us during wars and that we lost the system not because of anyone targeting us but because the gameplay incentivises players to work against us to farm materials for upgrades.

Traffic in the Senones system has dramatically fallen off now that it is no longer an anarchy and there is less incentive for players to go there.

General - current tick
We have nine systems in the Civil Unrest state and one in the Lockdown state. We know that killing a faction’s NPCs pushes system security in this direction, so this is evidence that there is ongoing action against us. These systems are: Baraswar, BD-10 5238, Carmenta, Damocan, Derrim, Frigur, Frog, LHS 3439, Lovedu, Ross 162 and Shosha.


These are only a few highlights from what's going on in our systems. We've posted a summary of why we believe this is happening in the other anarchy thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/say-goodbye-to-anarchies.578248/page-20#post-9287846
 
"Date = always" is not nearly as useful as "I completed X mission for X faction on Xth of May".
Thanks for this thread, it's appreciated.

Although I understand why you're asking us to adhere to a specific format, I do think the following bears pointing out. If you want to remove it to keep the thread clean I understand and will repost in the anarchies thread Marchogion linked above.

____

There are clearly some bugs with how INF is being awarded and distributed, the main issue we can identify is that Odyssey's content is heavily and fundamentally biased against Anarchies by design, regardless of activity or mission source.

We have established beyond reasonable doubt that every hostile NPC at every Odyssey-related POI in a system (not settlement) will be affiliated with a local anarchy. Pirates in RES sites, by comparison, are drawn from an interstellar catchment area. Here's just one player's findings over the course of an hour's Odyssey play as an example:
Surface PoI faction sample 09/06/21:

Wadjali:
Crash site threat 3 - Diamond Frogs
Minor Wreckage threat 3 - Diamond Frogs
Distress Signal threat 3 - Diamond Frogs

Shosha:
Minor Wreckage threat 2 - no hostiles
Minor Wreckage threat 3 - Partnership of Shosha (Native Anarchy)
Minor Wreckage threat 1 - Diamond Frogs
Minor Wreckage threat 1 - Diamond Frogs

BD-17 6172:
Minor Wreckage threat 2 - BD-17 6172 Silver Brothers (Native Anarchy)

Frigur:
Minor Wreckage threat 1 - Frigur Purple Drug Empire (Native Anarchy)
Irregular markers threat 1 - Diamond Frogs

Similarly, settlement missions have a chance to spawn antagonists as a wrinkle in addition to the native NPCs - which have in 100% of cases also been affiliated with local anarchy. This means that even taking a mission for the anarchy against a rival leads, worryingly frequently, to fighting the same anarchy that sent you there in the first place. You need several clicks through the menu wheel to check affiliation while on foot so many people probably won't even notice. This all seems to be regardless of context, with a chance for it to occur on every mission type.

As an example:

1623340345199.png

Here is a mission given by the Diamond Frogs on the 9th of June to sabotage a base controlled by Kremainn Corporation. Half-way through the mission a whole squad Diamond Frogs NPCs spawned in for no apparent reason, hostile to the native guards and player alike (green in this image because they weren't within engagement range).
1623340353936.png




In space this doesn't happen: for megaship, installation events or space USS the sides are drawn from all the factions present in the system (vs the controller in the former two cases) and you can choose which side to take. Bounties are also not awarded without a KWS in Anarchy control systems in space, but they are for Odyssey content. Odyssey POIs and events leave you with no choice as to which faction you're fighting - it's always us. On top of that bounties are shelled out despite anarchy control which compounds the issue further.

The following are screenshots from a POI in our home system 63 G. Capricorni:
1623340370322.png

DF NPC with bounty at a surface POI.

1623340380136.png

Killing DF then results in a bounty issued by DF.

So even when functioning correctly Odyssey's dice are loaded against us. Exacerbating this are the progression loops which then draw focused traffic to Anarchy control systems where it's much easier to collect materials. The best we've been able to do in these places, once the traffic ramps up, is slow the bleed a little. Senones and LTT 7786 were the most recent casualties and carrier traffic points to 63 G. Capricorni being the next on the chopping block.

We've had 18 wars since Odyssey launched, more than we'd usually have in a year, if players were banding together en masse specifically to remove us from control then fair play, but all the evidence points to this being regular CMDRs hanging out indiscriminately going about their business afoot - and as such shouldn't be applying such overwhelming negative pressure to one specific government type. In Horizons high traffic tends to be beneficial to controllers, if anything.

In short, Anarchy factions are to Odyssey what Barbarians are to Civilization games, just the blanket everywhere-enemy for everyone, including themselves. It seems doubtful that tweaking INF values and squashing bugs alone will solve this.
 
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  • The name of the faction - Brotherhood of Terra Mater
  • The name of the system - about 20 out of 26 (all except the most remote / least visited ones)
  • What you were trying to do vs what actually happened
Trying to raise security after we've been nuked into the stone age by the untested EDO release.

Only reliable way to raise security now is importing weapons and that's hardly making a dent. Due to low security nearly all source & return missions have disappeared, meaning the other semi-reliable way to gather bounties by attracting pirate attacks is virtually nonexistent now. 90% of the missions offered at our stations atm are obsolete, unpopular and very time consuming (transport 5-6k cargo, use hatch breaker to steal cargo, hop into an SRV and attack settlement etc.). It's a no win situation that's spiraling further down from Terrorist Attack to Civil Unrest to Lockdown.

This is just the Horizons part of the equation. As others have pointed out the Odyssey part is even worse. Not to mention anarchies were always less popular than other governments due to, among others, outdated missions and negative lore. Now many longtime anarchy supporters have simply given up on BGS or the game altogether.

A quick solution is needed before there is nothing more to solve. Instead of letting us slowly decay in the radiated wasteland that EDO created please consider the following:

  • give anarchies access to donation missions that also increase security (protection money missions)
  • restore the ability to bounty hunt in anarchy systems by awarding bounties to the controlling faction in res sites and CNBs (like everywhere else)

Also think about closing the huge loophole that anarchies have become by introducing some form of punishment for those that indiscriminately kill in anarchy space to circumvent the intended progression in the game. It's absurd lore wise that you can simply waltz into the base of a criminal organization, kill a bunch of members and no one even blinks an eye !
  • Approximate dates you attempted the action - since the patch that halted influence drop
 
While I can't point to any particular instances, I see a reason to empathies that a lack of "target faction" information on missions is also part of the problem, or at least plays a role in some instances. Anarchy factions tend to be picked as antagonists more so than other factions. This is not the case per se with Horizons content.
 
Apologies for the slightly broad details, but this may be useful to you in seeing specific details across the wider galactic communty.

On behalf of a number of groups and directly on behalf of one our friendly galactic neighbourhood groups I would like to offer the attached evidence. The original cmdr collating this information describes it as follows and has asked me to post this detail to help FDev collect more evidence:

Huge influence drops, then massive impact on security with no effective methods of remediation (no BV in Anarchy systems).

Attached in the form of screenshots both from the in-game system info panel, along with Inara influence graphs for each system. Collectively these show the pre-Odyssey and post-Odyssey security (May 20th to present). They are collected from notable Anarchy factions and systems, but this affects every Anarchy faction in the game. There are many more systems of course, but these examples are more accessible.

More examples available here (Imgur).

The screenshots of systems + INF history via Inara screenshots tie the impact of the Odyssey release - largely indicating the massive effect on both security and influence. The net effect barely a few weeks on is that the majority of anarchies are now in CU or approaching it. Massive amounts of work needs to be done in our allies' BGS to counter it - that effort is simply not sustainable.

Using EliteBGS.app the following data was collated by a cmdr we're discussing the problem with:

anarchy-factions-data-ebgs.png


If this is the intended effect due to legs-based activity, surely the balance needs to be struck with rebalancing the SEC & INF effect of Odyssey anti-security activity specifically in anarchy systems? Or perhaps its time to introduce a mechanic which allows anarchy systems to generate bounty vouchers?
 

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Diamond Frogs
63 G. Capricorni

This picture is the combat mission board in our home station Skvortsov Orbital. Two pages of missions targetting our faction, all the "take down named person" send you to our settlements too. It's not even just same system targets either, it will send you to other systems we own to lay waste to our members. The other faction offered as a target is also an anarchy. Why are anarchies the only target of combat missions?

Edit to follow the requested format:
  • What you were trying to do vs what actually happened
    • Trying to take combat missions that attack our in-system enemies to lower their influence and boost ours. What happened: every mission targets us or a native anarchy in another system
  • Approximate dates you attempted the action
    • 11/06/21
 

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Also related: 11/6/21, whilst in 63 G. was interdicted several times by Diamond Frogs NPC's who fired first, did not scan.

1) Being attacked by an allied faction is a bit immersion breaking, and 2) it is unprecendted. Never have been attacked by a DF NPC in the years I have been playing and allied.
 
Omerta Brotherhood
All systems that we had control of and were in went into an INF free fall since may 19th no matter what actions we did, we got totally anihaleted in all systems.
we lost control of a few of them. its been extreemly demoralizing, our group has put on hold all BGS activities as we watch our Faction die
 
Fusang Heavy Engineering
Thras
Most recent events 11/12 June
Multiple Cmdrs completing high influence missions leading to our influence dropping day on day
 

Deleted member 192138

D
It will be nearly impossible to get those anarchies out of lockdown. You can't just go to a haz RES to farm bounties like you can with any other faction. It's a really boring waiting game to try and create the conditions to get any bounties in an anarchy system, let along the sort of numbers you'd need to pull out of lockdown when ambient traffic is adding a downward trend to a metric that typically anarchies aren't meant to significantly respond to.

Probably doesn't help that anarchies are constantly giving out fines and sending people to detention centres for foot activities, when for ship based activity they kill you with no punishment. Which is amongst the several thousand, mostly ignored, issues on the tracker https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/31602 but now it compounds the issue with this information about increased lockdowns in anarchy systems.
 

Deleted member 115407

D
Besides the fact that every Tom, and Harry out there is free farming Anarchy settlements for mats...

The problem isn't hard to figure out. (I hear they're stackable, too. So, bonus).
1623591804126.png


I'm going to go find some nearby lawfuls to just kill the out of over and over and over again.
 
-Wikatabar Blue Organization
-Apalar Purple Raiders

Both are one of the few non-player controlled anarchy groups.
 
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  • Diamond frogs Faction
  • LTT 7786
  • Completed 8 missions and sold legal goods, decrease in influence occurred
  • Evening of 13/6 (+10 GMT)

    Note the mission influence bug is still in effect, rewards for inf missions are often zero or less than what is offered.
 
I posted this bug report a full week ago and it was never acknowledged or confirmed but I think it's also relevant to this thread as it is another compounding factor on our ability to generate INF for our factions:

  • What you were trying to do vs what actually happened
    • Run space missions for INF, choosing the INF reward. The mission either gives you nothing or some random amount of INF. If you choose the cash reward sometimes you'll get the full +5, sometimes you'll only get +1.
  • Approximate dates you attempted the action
    • This specific instance was on June 7th. But it's something that always happens in all of our systems

Picking INF reward:
Screenshot 2021-06-01 172054.png
Picking cash reward:
Screenshot 2021-06-01 173503.png
 
Ahoy, space pirates!

We've received reports of the recent Odyssey update negatively affecting influence for anarchy factions and systems in the BGS. If your minor faction/system of choice has been affect, could you please reply to this thread with the following details:

  • The name of the faction
  • The name of the system
  • What you were trying to do vs what actually happened
  • Approximate dates you attempted the action

Make sure your reports concern incidents that occurred since 28 May. Please do not post replies to other comments, or post anything off-topic lest your comment be removed. We would like to keep this thread clean and efficient for feedback.

Your feedback will be immensely helpful in identifying and resolving this issue.

Yarr and O7

Edit: we ask for dates so that we can isolate and examine specific events. We understand that some issues are "always on" but please give specific instances where possible.
I just visited several systems around Crathiganit in Solo play. These systems do not have Frontline missions or settlement power on missions tonight. Are those mission offline?
 
I just visited several systems around Crathiganit in Solo play. These systems do not have Frontline missions or settlement power on missions tonight. Are those mission offline?
Frontline Services, I'm noticing many systems where there's wars, but no ground conflict zones where they're meant to.

Settlement power on missions depend on faction states; if no factions owning settlements are in these states, power on missions can't spawn.
 
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