re: Statement on Harassment

[Titler]

Hey there. Reported comments are reviewed by our Moderators and the option to appeal will always be available. This statement will have no impact on those who share feedback constructively and without abuse.

Edited: The answer was further in this thread, and can be seen a few posts above mine, which I hadn't seen because I was responding on page 1.

And NOT on the warnings for "Harassment" which were sent out; all you could do was Report the warning itself.

However it should be obvious how setting rules that you can be moderated for abstract principles, but not even mention those principles is only going to further collapse faith and belief in the fairness of moderation here, the poor quality of which recently has already lost me permanently as a consumer for future purchases, and is doing so much to drive players, including many of the biggest influencers away too.

 

[23RD]

Well, i didn't read all these pages.
If this statement allows moderator to ban players who's being too toxic and instead of discussing game and fdev problems starts being rude to people, with insulting and other stuff like that, that's good and i'm perfectly fine with it.
BUT, if this statement is new a form of censorship to wipe all who at this point still brings up uncomfortable topic like future of ED, interiors, stuff's ability to manage their own game and etc. Then... DOOOOMED!

 

[Agema]

does that get me a ban? How very liberal, freedom of speech etc, I have the right to be critical in this case of an element of the community that do more harm than good by getting in the way of honest feedback that FD presumably values.

if you only have the freedom to be inoffensive that's not a freedom worth having.

If you want to know whether it gets you a ban then you need to ask a mod, not me. But I can tell you that freedoms come with responsibilities. If you can't be bothered exercising responsibility, you may as well lose your freedom.

If you want to be critical of someone's opinion, you are free to do so. "I think you are wrong to defend FDev [because reasons]". Fine.

But what are you achieving by trying to pettily shame people whose opinion you disagree by characterising them as sycophantic losers? Has it made your argument for why their opinion is wrong any stronger? Do you think they're suddenly going to think to themselves "Mm, Cervantes01 thinks I'm a contemptible dweeb for holding this opinion, so I'd better change my mind"? Seems to me that you're achieving nothing at all by insulting other people, except to potentially annoy them. Why does anyone need to respect that?

 

[Ydiss]

Because I'm trying to provide feedback as to why this occurred.

Why do you think they need to know the reason some people abuse their staff? Do you think there's a lesson they need to learn here?

 

[Sysmon]

I am very pro these bans. I think it is a travesty if such rudeness continues unabated, as I have a pile of stuphs that needs to increase in size...

How much stuph is critical mass though? Is there a Bot H* being built somewhere? Does it have an event horizon. Is Darth Ender staring at it longingly?

S

 

[Sethiest]

This thread.

 

[Bottom Hat]

The moar stuphs you haz, the moar stuphs you need...

Indeed. It is an addiction, but so far I have failed to find a negative side to it, apart from generally being loathed by some people who don't get that it's a joke!

How much stuph is critical mass though? Is there a Bot H* being built somewhere? Does it have an event horizon. Is Darth Ender staring at it longingly?

S

He can stare at the void as much as he wants, but I have already shown his picture to my angry badger family, and they are keen to see him try and get past them...

 

[CMDR Fnool]

We all know what they are talking about, i don't feel there's any need to worry about the forums becoming an overly optimistic echo-chamber, it's not that hard to say what you want without focusing on anyone in particular, or being unpleasant. I say the copy/paste planets ruined the game for me as an explorer, i don't like the way the same hand-crafted topography can appear side-by-side or even worse, on different planets, and i think it was a terrible idea to implement that change. There, i'm sure i haven't broken any rules and i got my point across fairly.

 

[Jmanis]

So when a spokesman for a company issues a statement that conflicts with a previous statement that said company has issued?

Now if the above occurs. Expect blowback. That is the nature of working in PR.

Expect blowback, but don't expect personal attacks and abuse. The two are distinct and separable.

 

[Christopher Roberto]

You should email community@frontier.co.uk and appeal the ban. Honestly though, if you're smart enough to tell the difference between critique and abuse/harassment (and use the former, not the latter!) you'll be fine.

I don't know about that since Drew's post that was completely on topic about the absolute state of Elite got moved to off-topic. Seems the lines are blurred and if one's too influential in their critique then a different set of rules kick in.

 

[CMDR Anastasiya]

Expect blowback, but don't expect personal attacks and abuse. The two are distinct and separable.

Distinct yes. Separable perhaps not.

It would depend if the communication directed towards the customer was patronising, condescending or simply treat the customer as fools. If the customer feels rightly or wrongly that the communication is any of these things, then it is going to become personal.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

WOW.

There is NO excuse for abuse in any form. Ever.

I honestly hope your're serious.

In the occasional thread, its a common occurence for a mod to chime in at one point with the line "keep it civil, discuss the post not the poster". This only occurs after player have gotten abusive at each other for more than one exchange, or a few pages etc. I would hope that this no longer happens, the posts instead are completely deleted and the users instantly banned.

The integrity of the forums would be in an interesting state after a hindsight of bans occuring for the staff but not for players?

As many have stated, apart from a few moral customer concerns, its completely clear to everyone what is abuse, and noone disagrees. Including yourself! so there woudln't be a problem doing it?

 

[Lord Rak]

So, who got banned ? or is it some kind of a secret ?
I get a warning sometimes. Some times people say stupid things in here and it is impossible not to say something back. I know jokes and maybe my line is a rough line but I always try to stay civil.

 

[Ghural]

I think the core of the issue is this

Frontier has made a whole mess of mistakes in regards to Odyssey.

The problem is that the frontline workers and developers are not responsible. Responsibility lies in senior management that sits quietly behind the frontline developers who end up copping the blame on their behalf. Blame especially resides with whoever made the decision to go from an Alpha straight to launch (which I have never seen happen before).

My suggestion is that if people are upset, then stop playing the game. Uninstall it or get a refund. Yelling at developers isn't going to result in anything useful.

Personally I'm giving the game a rest until the console release arrives and then we'll see.

It's just too frustrating and not-fun at the moment.

 

[Ydiss]

Distinct yes. Separable perhaps not.

It would depend if the communication directed towards the customer was patronising, condescending or simply treat the customer as fools. If the customer feels rightly or wrongly that the communication is any of these things, then it is going to become personal.

It's not acceptable, ever. Under no circumstances can the two ever be seen as "inseparable". Why don't you understand that?

Even if someone personally attacks someone, it's not acceptable for that victim to personally attack someone. It's just not acceptable under any condition. It's simply against the rules. I've got no idea why you think fdev need you to suggest there's a cause for the personal attacks, there is no moral high ground to be gained from it.

I honestly hope your're serious.

In the occasional thread, its a common occurence for a mod to chime in at one point with the line "keep it civil, discuss the post not the poster". This only occurs after player have gotten abusive at each other for more than one exchange, or a few pages etc. I would hope that this no longer happens, the posts instead are completely deleted and the users instantly banned.

The integrity of the forums would be in an interesting state after a hindsight of bans occuring for the staff but not for players?

As many have stated, apart from a few moral customer concerns, its completely clear to everyone what is abuse, and noone disagrees. Including yourself! so there woudln't be a problem doing it?

I think you should probably let the moderators do their jobs and you just keep on going about your life as you did before and avoid personally attacking anyone and we'll all get on fine.

Your strong hints that players get to abuse someone personally and get away with it but devs get treated with more protection sounds like a great injustice but I can't see how it'll help anyone in its current theoretical, vague and unsubstantiated state. If you see someone being personally abused, report it.

 

[EdzUp]

Whilst I do agree that personal bans are needed I some cases to ban for a first offence would be harsh and something totalitarian in its approach.

As a personal example I have been warned over the years for disagreeing with people, one "ban" was for quoting someone. If that was now I would have been banned.

Abusive behaviour is one thing but a company that has a discourse with its customers and actively engages them is another. In the past years since the early seasons of ED (before Horizons) FDEV has actively not engaged with the community at all to the point that we only get a message from the CEO now if the share price is threatened. What we want is communication not threats of being banned.

Maybe talking about the frustrations of writing the game as it stands today using today's technology would be more appropriate. I for one as a programmer share the frustrations of writing for today's machines, for me writing code was much more enjoyable back in the DOS days when what you wrote was quicker and easier to go through.

I would like to see "an honest discourse and conversation with fdev without censorship and personal abuse, coupled without abusive sentiment or totalitarian ideologies" to keep the forum in order.

On another note freedom of speech has been challenged time and time again in courts around the world and it's here where a first totalitarian ban would fail.

 

[Ydiss]

Ah, I'm surprised it took 15 pages before "freedom of speech" got trotted out.

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech, which gives you the right to express yourself without your government punishing you for it.

You're not free to say whatever you like without consequence. Your right to free speech doesn't give you the right to abuse someone. And let's not forget that this topic is about abusing people. I doubt your "ban for quoting someone" is relevant here.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Your strong hints that players get to abuse someone personally and get away with it but devs get treated with more protection sounds like a great injustice but I can't see how it'll help anyone in its current theoretical, vague and unsubstantiated state. If you see someone being personally abused, report it.

When you come to a forum, its not your house, and you have to play by the rules and culture if you're going to stay. Over time, its really clear that there's a real amount of distasteful banter thats allowed to continue, to a fairly consistent point where the mods step in. Given that the moderation has perfectly been two sided, you're allowed to defend yourself in kind if it happens, there's never been an issue and its just one of those things. I always defended myself rather than using the report button, but anyway.

The point being, this is being changed from the top. The new direction is definitely overrules some of the forum culture that previously existed. So if its going to be enforced, my opinion is it should be enforced in all cases, not just player to cm.

Whether we get banned from that point is our responsibility.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

When you come to a forum, its not your house, and you have to play by the rules and culture if you're going to stay. Over time, its really clear that there's a real amount of distasteful banter thats allowed to continue, to a fairly consistent point where the mods step in. Given that the moderation has perfectly been two sided, you're allowed to defend yourself in kind if it happens, there's never been an issue and its just one of those things. I always defended myself rather than using the report button, but anyway.

The point being, this is being changed from the top. The new direction is definitely overrules some of the forum culture that previously existed. So if its going to be enforced, my opinion is it should be enforced in all cases, not just player to cm.

Whether we get banned from that point is our responsibility.

Contradicting yourself there. If it's 'their house their rules' then you can't demand that players get treated the same as CMs.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Contradicting yourself there. If it's 'their house their rules' then you can't demand that players get treated the same as CMs.

Lol sure, but it would look pretty crap if everyone didn't receive the same treatment.

Besides, the cm post was referring to the cm team specifically. Players were very much not mentioned, so this is more of a suggestion to the mod team. Which have always been excellent in my experience.