re: Statement on Harassment

[Ydiss]

When you come to a forum, its not your house, and you have to play by the rules and culture if you're going to stay. Over time, its really clear that there's a real amount of distasteful banter thats allowed to continue, to a fairly consistent point where the mods step in. Given that the moderation has perfectly been two sided, you're allowed to defend yourself in kind if it happens, there's never been an issue and its just one of those things. I always defended myself rather than using the report button, but anyway.

The point being, this is being changed from the top. The new direction is definitely overrules the forum culture that previously existed. So if its going to be enforced, my opinion is it should be enforced in all cases, not just player to cm.

Whether we get banned from that point is our responsibility.

I cannot recall many scenarios where someone personally attacked someone and got away with it. An actual personal attack.

I think you're mistaking arguing and sarcasm, bickering or ad hominem with personal attacks. They're just not the same thing. Ad hominem definitely isn't what Arf is talking about.

An example is I can say you aren't helpful and you often annoy me, which is ad hominem (I don't think that, just an example). If I keep doing it I'm sure I'd get an infraction at some point. If I keep getting infractions then I'll eventually get banned.

It's just not the same as me attacking you personally, such as saying you deserve to die or saying things about your family or threatening you, saying you're a - insert expletive here - and so on (again, just examples, I think you're great really )

As I said, it's best we let the mods get on with it. I don't think Arf's post has suddenly given cause for us to begin double guessing the way rules are enforced. Not at all. Abuse isn't tolerated. And I think that's easy to get on side with, right? It's just that it's been happening a lot recently towards staff. I don't think we need to play the whole "but we're abused too" card.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

As I said, it's best we let the mods get on with it.

That sounds a bit dull. I think we should have an open letter threatening legal action and a couple of badly researched articles in Polygon.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

An example is I can say you aren't helpful and you often annoy me, which is ad hominem (I don't think that, just an example). If I keep doing it I'm sure I'd get an infraction at some point. If I keep getting infractions then I'll eventually get banned.

As I said, it's best we let the mods get on with it. I don't think Arf's post has suddenly given cause for us to begin double guessing the way rules are enforced. Not at all. Abuse isn't tolerated. And I think that's easy to get on side with, right? It's just that it's been happening a lot recently towards staff. I don't think we need to play the whole "but we're abused too" card.

I think you might be missing the point. I don't think abuse should be tolerated to anyone. I don't see any logic why its bad to suggest it be enforced for players as well.

Also, if it were only the case that the forum is cluttered with frustrating ad homium then you can just reply with "thats nice" and move on. While literal threats (if they even occur here) don't exist / are immediately modded out.. there is a large amount of personal attacks that get made to other forum goers when posters cant use the game or the company for their argument, and much of this is easily read as abuse, if its not directly worded as such.

 

[Ydiss]

I think you might be missing the point. I don't think abuse should be tolerated to anyone. I don't see any logic why its bad to suggest it be enforced for players as well.

Also, if it were only the case that the forum is cluttered with frustrating ad homium then you can just reply with "thats nice" and move on. While literal threats (if they even occur here) don't exist / are immediately modded out.. there is a large amount of personal attacks that get made to other forum goers when posters cant use the game or the company for their argument, and much of this is easily read as abuse, if its not directly worded as such.

Sorry, I just don't get what it is you're trying to say. It's just vague. It's been made clear that players cannot abuse other players. But this post by Arf was made for one very specific reason. So I refer again to my repeated response... Let the mods do their jobs. I don't think this is something you need to be concerned with.

I'm sure it's not your intention but it just comes across a little like "all people matter, not just staff". Yes, you're right. But Arf has a right and responsibility to draw a line and protect staff.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Sorry, I just don't get what it is you're trying to say. It's just vague. So I refer again to my repeated response... Let the mods do their jobs. I don't think this is something you need to be concerned with.

Easy. From Arthurs Post:

"However, it is unfortunate to see members of the community relaying their frustrations by insulting, making accusations, and launching personal attacks towards my team or other staff members. I would like to address this form of communication directly."

• That happens very frequently on the forums between players.
• It is distasteful, unpleasant, not positive and not necessary.
• If its now being enforced for some, it should be enforced for all.

 

[Ydiss]

Easy. From Arthurs Post:

"However, it is unfortunate to see members of the community relaying their frustrations by insulting, making accusations, and launching personal attacks towards my team or other staff members. I would like to address this form of communication directly."

• That happens very frequently on the forums between players.
• It is distasteful, unpleasant, not positive and not necessary.
• If its now being enforced for some, it should be enforced for all.

I'm sure it's not your intention but it just comes across a little like "all people matter, not just staff". Yes, you're right. But Arf has a right and responsibility to draw a line and protect staff, particularly given the increased incidents recently.

It has no impact on the fact that you are protected too. And it's a little "but me, me!" to keep pressing the point you're trying to make.

If you're been attacked, report it. Done.

Let the mods do their jobs.

 

[Ydiss]

Oh and this is the first paragraph of his post dude!

"I am reaching out to you today as I am aware of some of the comments, accusations and remarks being made towards not only my team and developers, but also other members of our community."

Is he not talking about you there?

 

[Ydiss]

"Similarly, those attacking other members of the community will not be tolerated either."

Another quote, later on in his post.

Why are you ignoring this?

 

[Riverside]

Why are you ignoring this?

Are you only just reading it now?

I think there is reasonable cause for concern, it's okay to disagree if you are confident you'll be fine.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

"Similarly, those attacking other members of the community will not be tolerated either."

Another quote, later on in his post.

Why are you ignoring this?

Oh i missed that. So any personal attacks will be moderated out and the poster instantly banned?

Well then im impressed and look forward to forum discussions going forward.

And its really clear where the line is, its really easy to see what is abuse and what is just debate, definitely not an issue.

 

[Valorin]

And its really clear where the line is, its really easy to see what is abuse and what is just debate, definitely not an issue.

I think it really is.

 

[Jmanis]

Distinct yes. Separable perhaps not.

It would depend if the communication directed towards the customer was patronising, condescending or simply treat the customer as fools. If the customer feels rightly or wrongly that the communication is any of these things, then it is going to become personal.

I'd disagree that an appropriate response to patronising, condescending behaviour or "treating customers like fools" is to be personally abusive or harassing, but it's not really a productive debate to have here either... suffice to say doing so just undermines any legitimacy to your own grievances, reasonable or not.

 

[EidLeWeise]

Actuall

This thread.


View attachment 248667

Actually the whole reason I asked the OP in this thread was because of

If anyone can 'deem' what has been said to be offensive how can one appeal that? Thankfully Paul and some of the Mods have told us how, so (at least from my POV) that has been answered.

Other people here have raised good points that what they consider polite some other people might take offense to. Also, as we can see between @Ydiss and @CMDR Karrde Sun's discussion this morning that one has to consider both the Devs (Arf's direct responsibility) and every single member of the Frontier Community. So no, I don't think that (most) people are trying to just come around and kick stuff over, behaving like a cat on a shelf but that they have valid concerns.

Let's all just remember to play nice o7 Eid

 

[Cervantes01]

you must be looking at the wrong website.

I did actually reply to this with a humorous response that was clearly a joke, I even ended the post with 'jk' to signify it as such and a mod has removed it and accused me of trolling in a private message with actually proved my point. The future is only going to be bleak, we will only have the freedom to agree with FD that Odyssey is simply brilliant, my other post in which I stated that the freedom to be inoffensive is not a freedom worth having has also gone by the looks of it.

Just for the benefit of my Chinese overlords at FD, I'd like to say that Odyssey is amazing, not one bug, not one jot of poor performance and it was released in a workable state on time and the ice planets even look like the ones in their promotional material. Can I now go to the gulag/forced labour camp please so that I can start writing essays about how great FD actually is, whilst extolling the official line that the beige plague was a lie cooked up by rival companies and that there's lots to do in ED's gameplay?

I fully expect a ban as a result of this last post, but do you know what? It's worth it, I'll become a political prisoner and play star citizen instead.

 

[CMDR Anastasiya]

I'd disagree that an appropriate response to patronising, condescending behaviour or "treating customers like fools" is to be personally abusive or harassing, but it's not really a productive debate to have here either... suffice to say doing so just undermines any legitimacy to your own grievances, reasonable or not.

I'm not saying it's right. No abuse ever is. I'm merely highlighting that there perhaps has been reason(s) why customers are acting in such a way.

 

[Ian Phillips]

I'm not saying it's right. No abuse ever is. I'm merely highlighting that there perhaps has been reason(s) why customers are acting in such a way.

No. There is not ever a reason to act that way. If you have criticism then sure, express that. But do not be abusive. There is never a reason to attack someone personally for doing their work.

This is the line that has been drawn.

 

[Jmanis]

I'm not saying it's right. No abuse ever is. I'm merely highlighting that there perhaps has been reason(s) why customers are acting in such a way.

Once again, i disagree that's a reason at all. Abuse is not reasonable, period, and therefore devoid of any "reason" in all sense of the word.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[CMDR Anastasiya]

No. There is not ever a reason to act that way. If you have criticism then sure, express that. But do not be abusive. There is never a reason to attack someone personally for doing their work.

This is the line that has been drawn.

When a customer gets angry. There is always a reason why. Poor product, poor customer service, product not meeting expectations, product delays there is always a reason.

As a business, if a customer was abusive. You review the events that lead up to the issue at hand. If a resolution can't be found, explain why it can't be found. This is the approach I take with my business. And trust me, those customers come back.

Of course nobody should be abusive. But to suggest there never is a reason.

 

[Morgan James]

When a customer gets angry. There is always a reason why. Poor product, poor customer service, product not meeting expectations, product delays there is always a reason.

Yes, the reason is poor self-control.

 

[Ian Skippy]

When a customer gets angry. There is always a reason why. Poor product, poor customer service, product not meeting expectations, product delays there is always a reason.

As a business, if a customer was abusive. You review the events that lead up to the issue at hand. If a resolution can't be found, explain why it can't be found. This is the approach I take with my business. And trust me, those customers come back.

Of course nobody should be abusive. But to suggest there never is a reason.

What people are trying to explain is that even if the game is the worst game in the whooooooooole world that is still no excuse to be abusive. People shouldn't be abusive in virtually any situation. If someone says "but the computer game made me abusive!" that person needs to go to psych eval.

Of course FD is trying to improve EDO. But that's not the point here. Also, personally I don't want abusive people to return as a customer.