Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Lord Savage]

Don't deflect please. When will ToW, the much vaunted separate mode, that was almost ready over a year ago and just required a small team, that will be used to inform balance in the PU, be released?

Have CIG issued a date yet?

CIG no longer issues dates anymore for any of its projects.

Their official answer is only, "It's ready when it's ready."

A trusted handful of Evocati are the only ones Im aware of that have access to ToW.

I look forward to reviewing the ED Dev videos and see how they compare to CIG. Ive heard rather... cough ... interesting insight from long established ED Cmdrs concerning this ED Dev channel.

ED Cmdrs being banned for asking development questions? Is this true?

[REDACTED: Content is non-compliant with Forum Rules]

 

[VR Golgot]

Some interesting parallels with CIG/SC

First It Was An Assassin's Creed Expansion, Now It's Ubisoft's 8 Year Nightmare

Inside Ubisoft Singapore’s struggle to ship Skull & Bones

kotaku.com

Anyway, so how is Theaters of War these days?

Sataball anyone?

Theatres of War is a test environment, nothing more, everyone knows that. We were told at the convention reveal, just after the gravel-y voice read out the lore narrative over the cinematic intro scene. And that's still true today...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vyrO0NzPU


I'm sure Firesprite are doing a great job with it, that the missed 2020 deadlines aren't an issue, and that it's helping eat up the record backer funding for that year very nicely

---

But yeah, not the only parallel for sure...

...having a seamless openworld versus smaller instanced spaces would get debated, seemingly closed, and then later relitigated. Would the game have huge maps like Ubisoft’s other games, or would it be broken up into separate chunks like, say, Warframe? One team would choose one set of trade-offs. A new team would come in and pitch a different set. Eventually, however, they’d run up against the same limitations as before.

Throughout these debates, teams were given work to do to keep them busy. Some happily obliged, turning out high quality assets and designs the same way they might if they were supporting the Montreal or Quebec studios on the latest Assassin’s Creed, only for that work to become obsolete.

“It’s one of the only projects I’ve seen where as we were going, the team became more and more junior because all the talent and all the experience would leave constantly,” said one former developer. “People would learn about the project, see how it works and everything around it, and then leave. It was constant.”

Hard to be sure on this one, but certainly a frequent claim anecdotally from devs externally / leavers etc, and possibly discernible in the more visible teams. (The guy elevated to lead vehicles programmer only having shipped one indie game etc).

According to several sources, some senior managers would surround themselves with “yes men”... Those who continued to voice their dissent would eventually be “disappeared,” either to another team, another project, or another studio, they said.

Shocking

So neatly summed up in the 2016 Kotaku piece:

...

That's what I expect from the team and if the pushback is 'Well, I didn't do this when I was working at this other company', then, well, here we're trying to push it a bit more and if you can't get on board then you're probably not right for the team.

And there's certainly historical precedent there, IE the 'design by decree' thing: "You did everything exactly the way he said to do it, period, or you were fired almost immediately. No second chances. He was very explicit with what he wanted, and you either did it that way, or you were not part of his team.".

 

[VR Golgot]

Server meshing in my amateur opinion has a 80% of being implemented by Jan 2022. 90% by 2nd QTR 2022.

Ok you think the full blown thousands concurrently in the same “instance” Server Meshing has a good chance of being functioning by Q2 2022.

Thanks for the prediction

I think given CIG's sterling communication, but less than sterling actual delivery in this area, you may be a touch on the wrong side of things there

Server Meshing planned for:

2018: Roadmapped for delivery in Q4
2019: "That will be coming in next year" (Erin Roberts, Chief Development Office, June 2018)
2020: "Round about middle of this year" [In reduced 'first step' form of 'Full Universe Persistence' alone.]
2021: "Probably by the end of this year" [In reduced 'first step' form of the 'entity graph' (previously 'Full Universe Persistence', then 'iCache')]

 

[Lord Savage]

Ok you think the full blown thousands concurrently in the same “instance” Server Meshing has a good chance of being functioning by Q2 2022.

Thanks for the prediction

I think given CIG's sterling communication, but less than sterling actual delivery in this area, you may be a touch on the wrong side of things there

Im not stressing it. Im having a blast playing in its current state as can be attested by the lastest wave of ED defectors.

Entertaining seeing ship interiors wowing new ED defectors. Unchaining yourself from your pilot chair during quantum drive and playing a game of chess... floating out of your ship to mine an asteroid... and much much more...

Here is recent testimony from a former die-hard ED CMDR. He also notes "warts and all" which is fair in its current state.

I have to admit he did an honest beautiful job. I look forward to all the fresh material from the growing wave of ED Defectors.

Source: https://youtu.be/JRP9A8VQwIU

 

[Fishy]

what?!? ED Cmdrs being banned for asking development questions? Is this true?

Summoning @Mole HD to discuss bans for asking the wrong questions.

 

[VR Golgot]

Now please send me ED's monthly Dev interview channel where Backers present questions to the Devs.

In answer to your question, FDev do not run equivalent rolling dev Q&As or presentations, such as the one which claimed Theatres of War was coming in 2020, for example:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmwlgWQFyg&t=1290s


Not that ToW was alone in not making the cut for 2020 of course

Pillar Talk - Looking Into 2020: A Prediction Check...​

This video was dedicated to features coming in 2020. IE:

• Intro: "This is a conversation about what will be coming beyond 3.8. So 3.9, 4.0, and potentially beyond."
• Outro: "There you go, that's a fairly in-depth discussion of what's coming up this year."

(NB the footage itself was filmed at Citcon in 2019, so when they say 'next year' periodically throughout the video, they mean 2020, and this is clear in context.)


Did these features get released in 2020?:

NO:​

* iCache.

* Making a homestead on a planet. Deploying defences etc. Tony Z says other players would be able to destroy, or customise such bases, because "that's what we do so often". They "build in the fundamental mechanics, and then you get all of this complex functionality that naturally results.".

* "Persistence for resources" on planets etc, leading to finite caps and gold rushes, for 3.9. Essentially brings exploration.

* Background Universe simulation. The resource exploration feeds into that. "The thing that you're working on Tony, that we're running".

* Jump points & a new solar system. Sean was glad they showed it at Citcon and was very excited for 2020 on those grounds. Tony Z was excited by the discovery, mapping and economic impact of the various types of jump point.

* Pyro specifically, with its lawlessness etc. (Chris qualifies Pyro as not coming in 3.9, but after that, and some time in 2020.).

* Refuelling and salvage. (Originally roadmapped for 2017 etc).

* Theatres of War. Coming out in 2020, but not with 3.8.

YES:​

* Prisons in 3.9.


---



So 4.0 became 3.10. We're now on the (delayed) 3.13 in Q2 2021. Outside of prisons, literally none of the planned things they mentioned are in...

Where art thou miracle techs? With your tsunami of emergent gameplay?

(Like purely on iCache, which started this deep dive: I get that a database that handles 'billions' of items and allows many servers to access it robustly is no small task ultimately. But still..... What a load of perpetual chaff they come out with :/)

Given you are now happily touting another such video, over half a year after the missed launch window, that is possibly a good thing. These rolling streams seem to have a tendency to obscure with information overload and conjecture as much as reveal likely outcomes.

FDev have more sporadic and occasional ones, normally focused around content releases. Such as this large talk on planetary generation, or the dev Q&A sessions prior to the Odyssey launch etc. Current Q&As are restricted more to weekly CM responses, rather than dev Q&As, as a rule.

It would be good if they did more, for sure. I'm not sure CIG's system is as marvellous as you're trying to suggest though

 

[amigacooke]

I have to wonder what actual incentive there is for CIG to produce anything beyond an alpha. It appears funds appear for a self-acknowledged unfinished product on the basis of jam tomorrow without any kind of deadline.

If I'm protesting about EDO being an unfinished alpha product, why would I cut CIG any more slack when I've been waiting since 2012 for CIG to produce a finished product of some kind?

 

[Susanna]

Im not familiar with the equivalent ED Dev monthly interviews. Can someone send me a link of your in-depth ED monthly interview channel?

Source: https://youtu.be/tDSEPsMX9w4

ROFL... If a couple of guys attempting to play ED counts as in-depth ED reviews
Let's just say don't have an equivalent...

 

[VR Golgot]

Here is recent testimony from a former die-hard ED CMDR. He also notes "warts and all" which is fair in its current state.

Yep the ED refugee thing is interesting. I suspect those that have switched purely to have ship interiors, or greater visual gloss, or a more immediate multiplayer experience, will enjoy those aspects. While of course noting all the downsides of it being a janky perpetual-alpha

Will be interesting to see how they're finding everything after 6 months. I suspect a fair number will find that alpha ain't for them...

Unchaining yourself from your pilot chair during quantum drive and playing a game of chess...

Lol at this bit

Slightly telling that the MSR's painfully clunky chess game is the only QT pursuit you can flag. Because of course its scanning room, server room for data smuggling, and lovely secret alcoves for stashing goods, don't really actually do anything meaningful in 2021. In line with essentially every other specialist profession ship added to the game to date, with the exception of the mining ships. (I'm sure we'll see the $575 Orion out soon to complete the set incidentally. Or maybe not )

The intangible Kraken got me thinking. How are the big ticket items doing on the release front these days?

Answer: Kinda like this...

A turret beast, a luxury yacht, and a tank carrier out the door. And a couple of exploration ships (minus their exploration features).

But anything requiring more technical additions to fulfil on their USP functions, or even reach flight ready status? Still in intangible land...

But hey, early days

Like, fair play to those who just want to walk around (or fall out of) a ship asset. Or indeed to play janky chess. But goddam have CIG sold, and talked up, so very much more than that.
And they still seem to be a decade of alpha away from delivering most of it...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

CIG no longer issues dates anymore for any of its projects.

Their official answer is only, "It's ready when it's ready."

A trusted handful of Evocati are the only ones Im aware of that have access to ToW.

I look forward to reviewing the ED Dev videos and see how they compare to CIG. Ive heard rather... cough ... interesting insight from long established ED Cmdrs concerning this ED Dev channel.

ED Cmdrs being banned for asking development questions? Is this true?

[REDACTED: Content is non-compliant with Forum Rules]

Yup, and that's an issue some of us have with CIG. I mean, not issuing release dates is a positive move compared to completely unreliable dates. But when you compare it with the other statements from CIG, there seems like a major disconnect.

That's why i kept saying "small team" "almost ready" "not much effort" because those are all things CIG said in regards to ToW over the previous years. Which doesn't quite gel with them having no clue about when it will be ready, despite it already being a year (at least?) after they initially said it was going to be ready.

The fact that SQ42 is also now covered by this "it will be ready when its ready" message is also quite shocking considering it was almost ready for release in 2014 according to CR.

 

[StanleyDunkan]

In answer to your question, FDev do not run equivalent rolling dev Q&As or presentations, such as the one which claimed Theatres of War was coming in 2020, for example:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmwlgWQFyg&t=1290s


Not that ToW was alone in not making the cut for 2020 of course




Given you are now happily touting another such video, over half a year after the missed launch window, that is possibly a good thing. These rolling streams seem to have a tendency to obscure with information overload and conjecture as much as reveal likely outcomes.

FDev have more sporadic and occasional ones, normally focused around content releases. Such as this large talk on planetary generation, or the dev Q&A sessions prior to the Odyssey launch etc. Current Q&As are restricted more to weekly CM responses, rather than dev Q&As, as a rule.

It would be good if they did more, for sure. I'm not sure CIG's system is as marvellous as you're trying to suggest though

Back to "Who screwed up more in Elite vs SC development wars."

Why are people so focused on server meshing? Sounds like a paradise for geting ganked to me. Would rather they keep it small until closer to relsease date.
2nd Star System would have been more intersting to see. Hopefully an Alien one.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Im not stressing it. Im having a blast playing in its current state as can be attested by the lastest wave of ED defectors.

Entertaining seeing ship interiors wowing new ED defectors. Unchaining yourself from your pilot chair during quantum drive and playing a game of chess... floating out of your ship to mine an asteroid... and much much more...

Here is recent testimony from a former die-hard ED CMDR. He also notes "warts and all" which is fair in its current state.

I have to admit he did an honest beautiful job. I look forward to all the fresh material from the growing wave of ED Defectors.

Source: https://youtu.be/JRP9A8VQwIU

Since you are a new participant in the thread i think its worth pointing out that many of us acknowledge people can enjoy SC even in its current form, even "have a blast".

A lot of us simply focus on CIG's communications, inability to stick to self-imposed deadlines, and of course, their lies. Years and years of lies, most of them direct from the mouth of the CEO.

As someone just more or less commented, if i'm giving FD grief for their recent bad communications, poor Odyssey release, and lies about recommended spec, then CIG deserve 100x as much grief.

As for the ED refugees, i'm sure many will enjoy SC and stick with it, despite its flaws. I'm sure many will quit once the honeymoon period wears off. Especially those who left ED because of the bugs and performance and lies from the company. As i've said a few times, out of the frying pan into the fire.

 

[LittleAnt]

Why are people so focused on server meshing? Sounds like a paradise for geting ganked to me. Would rather they keep it small until closer to relsease date.
2nd Star System would have been more intersting to see. Hopefully an Alien one.

We are focused on it because server meshing is also needed to get this second system.

 

[StanleyDunkan]

We are focused on it because server meshing is also needed to get this second system.

Why? How are this two relevant?

 

[Mole HD]

Are we pointlessly fighting about who's game is better than who's again?

Yay! \o/


I'll go back to sleep then. for later...

 

[VR Golgot]

Back to "Who screwed up more in Elite vs SC development wars."

Ach, this happens a lot in this thread. Guys bomb in looking for precisely that war, because this is the ED forum.

Personally I couldn't give two craps about the tribal stand off. (I'm not even playing EDO currently, I'm back on full VR games with less grind ). But always happy to defend my right to criticise SC

Why are people so focused on server meshing? Sounds like a paradise for geting ganked to me. Would rather they keep it small until closer to relsease date.
2nd Star System would have been more intersting to see. Hopefully an Alien one.

Because:

A) It represents CIG's habit of promising the bestest miracle tech and gameplay output for every gameplay genre they're attempting. Even if the odds of actually delivering that, in concert with all the other spangly claims, is very very thin indeed.

B) Their biggest ticket sale items seem to rely heavily on full blown Server Meshing being delivered. There aren't many technical routes to getting the $3000 80-crew Javelin into the game if your instancing caps out at 100 etc. (As noted recently, with any level of complex AI you're looking at a 'character cap' as much as a player one). There are possible 'instance the internals' solutions, but the point would be that they're still years away from even that kind of resolution seemingly. And we're inching into Duke Nukem Forever dev time here now. (And that's ignoring all the challenges of actually rendering that many complex moving objects in close proximity etc etc).

In the short term, they need some form of new networking tech regardless (such as the more basic 'static Server Meshing' being mooted). Because:

A) The current networking system is poop. (Desynch, 30ks, and complete slowdowns when players have the audacity to play the game. It's not fit for purpose.)

B) They've been meaning to expand into multiple solar systems since 2017. With the current system they can't host those solar systems on a separate server and handover information between them. Because it's poop

TLDR: Current networking = poop. 'Dynamic Server Meshing' = dream. Ships sold for $1000s seem to rely on that dream. It's 2021...

 

[Mole HD]

Ach, this happens a lot in this thread. Guys bomb in looking for precisely that war, because this is the ED forum.

Personally I couldn't give two craps about the tribal stand off. (I'm not even playing EDO currently, I'm back on full VR games with less grind ). But always happy to defend my right to criticise SC




Because:

A) It represents CIG's habit of promising the bestest miracle tech and gameplay output for every gameplay genre they're attempting. Even if the odds of actually delivering that, in concert with all the other spangly claims, is very very thin indeed.

B) Their biggest ticket sale items seem to rely heavily on full blown Server Meshing being delivered. There aren't many technical routes to getting the $3000 80-crew Javelin into the game if your instancing caps out at 100 etc. (As noted recently, with any level of complex AI you're looking at a 'character cap' as much as a player one). There are possible 'instance the internals' solutions, but the point would be that they're still years away from even that kind of resolution seemingly. And we're inching into Duke Nukem Forever dev time here now. (And that's ignoring all the challenges of actually rendering that many complex moving objects in close proximity etc etc).

In the short term, they need some form of new networking tech regardless (such as the more basic 'static Server Meshing' being mooted). Because:

A) The current networking system is poop. (Desynch, 30ks, and complete slowdowns when players have the audacity to play the game. It's not fit for purpose.)

B) They've been meaning to expand into multiple solar systems since 2017. With the current system they can't host those solar systems on a separate server and handover information between them. Because it's poop

TLDR: Current networking = poop. 'Dynamic Server Meshing' = dream. Ships sold for $1000s seem to rely on that dream. It's 2021...

It doesn't matter if you've bought an Idris or not...servers aren't worth a jot flying around in a $50 Aurora either. Of all SC's bugs and issues...the server performance is top of any current players 'They need to get this sorted' list. The 30k's have all but gone in the current live and PTU patches...desync and server lag is ridiculous even on low populated servers. It effects everything from mining to PvE combat to PvP.

I've done a bit of PvE bounty hunting with apparently indestructible NPC's rubber banding all over the place, mining where you need stable server performance to keep the mining laser power in the green for a bit of time...you can be fine...then lag spike, the indicator jumps to full on red, rock goes bang and you're either dead or the ship is so damaged it's off for repairs.

 

[Xink]

All I see are people that realised they could make a quicker buck advertising and catering to SC fans. Much like CIG, in fact.

Follow the money.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Server meshing in my amateur opinion has a 80% of being implemented by Jan 2022. 90% by 2nd QTR 2022.

Wait. How can you envision this when "its done when it's done"?
And "done" doesn't mean "finished" by CIG own words so even if server meshing is in when you say it would, I bet it'll be tier-0, almost as much impact as if it wasn't there

Now please send me ED's monthly Dev interview channel where Backers present questions to the Devs.

Come on, that's quite off topic, and FDev never claimed being the most open dev. And CIG might claim this, CIG sure waste a ton of time and money on fancy interviews but barely any of them relate to reality.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

We are focused on it because server meshing is also needed to get this second system.

Technically speaking, server meshing is not required for a second system, at least in any complicated form. They could run different systems on different servers. As you go through the wormhole you get handed over to another server that can accomodate you.

Server meshing is needed for the dream of having thousands of players all together in the same virtual world. It also doesn't solve the issue of having too many players in the same location, another magic tech will be needed for that, but i guess they will fall back on instancing to achieve it.